Unity of Self and Memory

[atanu]

We get to hear a story that impersonal neurological processes generate consciousness. Then what is unity of self?

A sentence such as "I that saw a flower is now touching it" reveals a self that lasts across periods of time. So how does the unified self that comprehends the entirety of this seeing/knowing come about from the neurological process?

Where is memory stored? Who accesses it? Who owns these memories?

 

[Nakosis]

We get to hear a story that impersonal neurological processes generate consciousness. Then what is unity of self?

A sentence such as "I that saw a flower is now touching it" reveals a self that lasts across periods of time. So how does the unified self that comprehends the entirety of this seeing/knowing come about from the neurological process?

Where is memory stored? Who accesses it? Who owns these memories?

It's got to be in the brain because things like alzheimer's and head/brain injuries can cause memory loss.

Also there is not a real unity of self as a majority of what goes on in the brain happens at the subconscious level. Conscious awareness only takes part in a very small portion of the brain. This is the "self". What happens at the subconscious level for the most part is a mystery to the conscious self.

We are simply not aware of the physical process of memory storage. It's taken care of by the subconscious mind.

 

[Polymath257]

We get to hear a story that impersonal neurological processes generate consciousness. Then what is unity of self?

A sentence such as "I that saw a flower is now touching it" reveals a self that lasts across periods of time. So how does the unified self that comprehends the entirety of this seeing/knowing come about from the neurological process?

Where is memory stored? Who accesses it? Who owns these memories?

Well, from what we know so far, memory is stored in the sensitivities of neurons and their connections with other neurons.

if you are really interested in these questions, you might look at a recent book by Sapolsky (a researcher in this area) called 'Behave'. It is quite informative.

 

[sayak83]

We get to hear a story that impersonal neurological processes generate consciousness. Then what is unity of self?

A sentence such as "I that saw a flower is now touching it" reveals a self that lasts across periods of time. So how does the unified self that comprehends the entirety of this seeing/knowing come about from the neurological process?

Where is memory stored? Who accesses it? Who owns these memories?

The neurons are densely interconnected and fire in concert in resonance with each other to create a single unified activation wave throughout the cerebral cortex. This unified activation wave is hypothesized to be the reason behind the unified cognitive experience that arises in us.

 

[JoshuaTree]

My mind pretty much works like a snow globe.

 

[sealchan]

We get to hear a story that impersonal neurological processes generate consciousness. Then what is unity of self?

A sentence such as "I that saw a flower is now touching it" reveals a self that lasts across periods of time. So how does the unified self that comprehends the entirety of this seeing/knowing come about from the neurological process?

Where is memory stored? Who accesses it? Who owns these memories?

My thinking is that self is an organization of "voices" within the psyche that represents various perspectives. There are two ways these voices are organized...in relation to a powerful central voice or in a cooperative relationship with each other with distributed power. So in understanding self we make use of one of two metaphors: "center of gravity" and/or "node on a web". What our self is is enmeshed in physical, biological, environmental and cultural systems as both centers of awareness and as knowers in a community of knowing.

Self is also that simpler "thing" we think of when we are simply aware that we "see a flower and know we are touching it". This awareness of awareness can be explained in two ways...objectively as a neural system capable of modelling the world and the being which houses the neural system in that world...and subjectively as the mystery of the emergence of something new ("I" or "myself") out of an objective reality of other.

In either case it is important for the purpose of self-identification to be supported by a culture which places value on the individual and provides that individual with opportunities to show their unique value. Just having a mostly (if not entirely) unique name is an important step in this regard. Holding that individual uniquely accountable for "their" actions is another huge step.

 

[Kirran]

The neurons are densely interconnected and fire in concert in resonance with each other to create a single unified activation wave throughout the cerebral cortex. This unified activation wave is hypothesized to be the reason behind the unified cognitive experience that arises in us.

Is there any explanation for how a subjective awareness can arise in relation to that?

 

[sayak83]

We get to hear a story that impersonal neurological processes generate consciousness. Then what is unity of self?

A sentence such as "I that saw a flower is now touching it" reveals a self that lasts across periods of time. So how does the unified self that comprehends the entirety of this seeing/knowing come about from the neurological process?

Where is memory stored? Who accesses it? Who owns these memories?

Here is a good account of how neuronal activity patterns lead to the conscious experience and how the activity pattern changes as we become unconscious.
https://phys.org/news/2016-10-mind-cortical-conscious-network.html
As our understanding of networks improve, we should be able to unravel more of this.

 

[sayak83]

Is there any explanation for how a subjective awareness can arise in relation to that?

No. There won't be any either.

 

[Kirran]

No. There won't be any either.

Why not?

 

[sayak83]

Why not?

Because "what it is like to be an electron" remains a coherent question even after we know every property of the electron as they pertain to the electron's interactions with the rest of the universe. How X relates to every thing else is determinable, but how X relates to X itself is indeterminable as any investigation you do reveals only something about that entity X interacting with something other than itself.

 

[Kirran]

Because "what it is like to be an electron" remains a coherent question even after we know every property of the electron as they pertain to the electron's interactions with the rest of the universe. How X relates to every thing else is determinable, but how X relates to X itself is indeterminable as any investigation you do reveals only something about that entity X interacting with something other than itself.

What a different way of saying things than would have occurred to me! How wonderful. Thanks sayak.

 

[sayak83]

What a different way of saying things than would have occurred to me! How wonderful. Thanks sayak.

You understood! I thought my response was a bit convoluted as it late here and I am getting sleepy.

 

[Audie]

My mind pretty much works like a snow globe.

Had this idea, hope it is not so-
that mine works like there are all these bins.

Each word that come in is just sent to its bin.

Bins with common words are piled high,
thousands and thousands of the same word,
in every imaginable font.

Others not so much.

But that is all that happens, just big piles of words.

 

[JoshuaTree]

Had this idea, hope it is not so-
that mine works like there are all these bins.

Each word that come in is just sent to its bin.

Bins with common words are piled high,
thousands and thousands of the same word,
in every imaginable font.

Others not so much.

But that is all that happens, just big piles of words.

Sometimes it's better to see the forest than the trees.

 

[Audie]

Sometimes it's better to see the forest than the trees.

Yes, for sure. That was too much detail, up too close!

Gonna French kiss with this?

microscope tongue - Google Search:

 

[JoshuaTree]

Yes, for sure. That was too much detail, up too close!

Gonna French kiss with this?

microscope tongue - Google Search:

Another real world example where I'd prefer the forest to the trees lol.

 

[Kirran]

You understood! I thought my response was a bit convoluted as it late here and I am getting sleepy.

Maybe a little, but you have this kinda thing down!

Basically, it's that descriptions and observations - science - can apply to the objective but the subjective isn't really touched on. Can't be. Is that almost as clear as what you said?

 

[sealchan]

The neurons are densely interconnected and fire in concert in resonance with each other to create a single unified activation wave throughout the cerebral cortex. This unified activation wave is hypothesized to be the reason behind the unified cognitive experience that arises in us.

I don't think that it is at all necessary to find an "ever-present" neural-physical behavioral correlate to the self. The self is like the center of mass of an object...the center of mass just makes it easier for us to calculate the behavior of that mass. In a vector drawing of the object in motion an arrow will be drawn from the "center" of the object in the direction of net motion depending on the various forces applied. In the same way, our central self is a convenience for referencing this body as a relatively autonomous and somewhat free actor on the world stage at varying levels. Our brains support a range of voices more or less inter-coordinated in part based on that self-identified center.

What determines our uniqueness can be seen as pointed to without being defined as the following:

• Our personal name
• Our personal relationships
• Our cultural environment including rights and responsibilities
• Our personal experience including the sensory awareness of our bodies' position within the world we sense

In short all these things define that arrow which we continually re-interpret in ourselves and through the feedback from the environment and especially others like ourselves. We are, as Daniel Dennett has put it, the center of our own narrative gravity. And as anyone who has meditated can say we are constantly writing our own novels on a sub-conscious level.

Of course, this is an impersonal way to talk about one's self. Within the context of our evolutionary and cultural heritage we are given the privilege of referring to ourselves as equal individuals with unique and relevant experiences worth sharing. We talk about ourselves in the first person as a sort of social contract which says, "You have the right and privilege to assume you are important".

 

[sealchan]

Because "what it is like to be an electron" remains a coherent question even after we know every property of the electron as they pertain to the electron's interactions with the rest of the universe. How X relates to every thing else is determinable, but how X relates to X itself is indeterminable as any investigation you do reveals only something about that entity X interacting with something other than itself.

If an electron has a means for self-representation then we can ask the question...if not then maybe it is not a coherent question.