Universal Salvation?

[Heneni]

Hello Wandered off!

Im not sure i understand your question? But ill give it a go. Seperation from god is our punishment, not entirely just, we deserved worse! Not being able to return to god our torment. Hence if you had faith in jesus to save you, he did, and this is therefore a place of training in order to go back to god. (if you are a christian) We are ALL here because we rebelled against god, god made a way for us to be redeemed. Jesus saved us on the cross and we need to learn how to be children of god so that when we go back we wont do the same thing again. Being seperated from god is my punishment and i have to make hay with it. My seperation from god is everyday reminding me that i need to fix the mistakes of the past, and use the opportunity to return back to god.

I would not have been able though to return into the presence of god if i had sin on me, so jesus had to wipe my sins away, but repentance for those sins is required otherwise there would be no change in the character that caused me to sin. This earth is a refining fire, purifying me daily to become pure as gold so that when i enter into my gods presence i wont be consumed! For the wicked it is not a refining fire but a fire that destroys. Jesus said he came to start a fire, that fire would purify us and would have a different effect on the wicked.

At the end of the ages the good trees are seperated from the bad trees, right now both trees are on this earth together. The good trees go home, the bad trees are thrown into the fire...this earth being the fire. The trees are uprooted, therefore the trees that are left wont be able to use the earth to survive, being uprooted it is unable to get its sustanance from it, and as we all know this earth does not seem like a likely place to have a good time in in the future for two reasons...god will have removed any traces of him, and two, satan will have free reign here ..oh and three..the earth wont be a nice planet to be on.

Heneni

 

[Wandered Off]

Im not sure i understand your question?

Hi Heneni. You asked whether "being separated from god here on earth [is] punishment." I was thinking that, since one has to take god's very existence on faith, that would also mean we'd have to take it on faith that being on earth is punishment (and that it's separation from god, for that matter).

Further, it seems a bit odd that we can't even be certain we're being punished. I'm being punished, but I don't know it, and apparently it's for rebelling against a god I wasn't certain of, and how would I know I was even rebelling? There is some kind of justice missing from that equation.

 

[crystalonyx]

Hello Wandered off!

Im not sure i understand your question? But ill give it a go. Seperation from god is our punishment, not entirely just, we deserved worse! Not being able to return to god our torment. Hence if you had faith in jesus to save you, he did, and this is therefore a place of training in order to go back to god. (if you are a christian) We are ALL here because we rebelled against god, god made a way for us to be redeemed. Jesus saved us on the cross and we need to learn how to be children of god so that when we go back we wont do the same thing again. Being seperated from god is my punishment and i have to make hay with it. My seperation from god is everyday reminding me that i need to fix the mistakes of the past, and use the opportunity to return back to god.

I would not have been able though to return into the presence of god if i had sin on me, so jesus had to wipe my sins away, but repentance for those sins is required otherwise there would be no change in the character that caused me to sin. This earth is a refining fire, purifying me daily to become pure as gold so that when i enter into my gods presence i wont be consumed! For the wicked it is not a refining fire but a fire that destroys. Jesus said he came to start a fire, that fire would purify us and would have a different effect on the wicked.

At the end of the ages the good trees are seperated from the bad trees, right now both trees are on this earth together. The good trees go home, the bad trees are thrown into the fire...this earth being the fire. The trees are uprooted, therefore the trees that are left wont be able to use the earth to survive, being uprooted it is unable to get its sustanance from it, and as we all know this earth does not seem like a likely place to have a good time in in the future for two reasons...god will have removed any traces of him, and two, satan will have free reign here ..oh and three..the earth wont be a nice planet to be on.

Heneni

You need to prove the biblical Jesus actually existed, before making bold assumptions based upon that assertion.

 

[Scott1]

You need to prove the biblical Jesus actually existed, before making bold assumptions based upon that assertion.

In a Religious Debate thread.... with an OP that clearly shows that this thread should be framed within the context of Scripture:

Something I have been thinking about for a long time is Apocatastasis - that is, universal salvation. Originally posited over a thousand years ago by Origen, a greek early church scholar, and later carried on by many thinkers from Saint Gregory of Nyssa to Julian of Norwich, it teaches that all moral agents will be ultimately saved - though evil individuals will be punished for an undefined length of time - even the sourest, most evil devil will return to God.

This teaching was declared anathema by the Synod of Constantinople in 543. My question is, what do other posters here think about this teaching? Do you think it should be more readily accepted by modern Christians or do you believe there is a better justification for eternal punishment?

.... someone has to PROVE Jesus existed?

I'm getting so tired of this.:no:

 

[logician]

Unless the thread is in the "same-faith" forum, these are equal opportunity threads, not closed ones, I suggest threads such as these be put in the same-faith debates if you don't want other opinions to be brought in.

 

[Katzpur]

Hi Heneni. You asked whether "being separated from god here on earth [is] punishment." I was thinking that, since one has to take god's very existence on faith, that would also mean we'd have to take it on faith that being on earth is punishment (and that it's separation from god, for that matter).

Further, it seems a bit odd that we can't even be certain we're being punished. I'm being punished, but I don't know it, and apparently it's for rebelling against a god I wasn't certain of, and how would I know I was even rebelling? There is some kind of justice missing from that equation.

Hi, Wandered Off. I don't believe that being separated from God here on Earth is a punishment. To me, it's a privilege, and I believe it's something we all chose to experience. Now it we were to be eternally separated from God, that would be a different matter. I believe that God has a purpose for us here on Earth and did not put us here to punish us, but so that we could return to Him having learned things we could not possibly have learned in His presence.

 

[Somkid]

I thought Buddhism was the only belief system that had a universal "salvation" concept? If any one is "lost" or damned to hell than there can be no universal salvation.

 

[Katzpur]

I thought Buddhism was the only belief system that had a universal "salvation" concept? If any one is "lost" or damned to hell than there can be no universal salvation.

Mormonism doesn't teach universal salvation, but pretty darned close. The only way I can see salvation being 100% universal (that's redundant, isn't it? ) would be for God to force everyone to want to spend eternity with Him. I personally don't know why someone wouldn't want to, but I don't believe God will force anyone. Aside from those who, when all is said and done (and I am not just talking about the 70 or 80 years of mortality we can probably expect to experience), hate God enough that they would prefer to live out eternity as far from Him as possible, we're all going to make it.

 

[Somkid]

I am happy and comfortable with the idea of 60, 70, 80 or 100 years here the idea of death being permanent and not having to live anymore is quite satisfying to me.

 

[lilithu]

Something I have been thinking about for a long time is Apocatastasis - that is, universal salvation. ... Do you think it should be more readily accepted by modern Christians or do you believe there is a better justification for eternal punishment?

I'm a Unitarian Universalist, so you can guess what I think.

While I don't identify as Christian, my Universalist forebears did, and I can state their argument:
Human beings are finite creatures. No matter how much evil a human tries to commit, it is ultimately only a finite amount of harm. It would be unjust to inflict an infinite amount of punishment for a finite amount of sin. God is just. Therefore, no one will be condemned to eternal damnation. Everyone will be reconciled with God in due course of time.

 

[Katzpur]

Human beings are finite creatures. No matter how much evil a human tries to commit, it is ultimately only a finite amount of harm. It would be unjust to inflict an infinite amount of punishment for a finite amount of sin. God is just. Therefore, no one will be condemned to eternal damnation. Everyone will be reconciled with God in due course of time.

I have one question for you, lilithu. Does your belief allow for individuals who sincerely do not want to be reconciled to God, or do you believe there are no such people? Mormonism grants that there may be a few that come to have a perfect knowledge of God and, having that knowledge, consciously reject Him. These are those that the Bible says have blasphemed against the Holy Ghost and cannot be forgiven, either in this life or the next. These will be infinitesimally few in number, but they be eternally damned. The vast, vast majority (even murderers, rapists, etc.) will eventually be granted some measure of heavenly glory.

 

[lunamoth]

I think my position has changed slightly from universal salvation to something more like 'universal choice.' Like the LDS, I think that if someone does not wish to be reconciled with and in harmony with the Source of Love and Being, they have that choice.

 

[Wandered Off]

I think my position has changed slightly from universal salvation to something more like 'universal choice.' Like the LDS, I think that if someone does not wish to be reconciled with and in harmony with the Source of Love and Being, they have that choice.

That makes sense. Is there a point at which a choice is considered "final" and irreversable? If we are eternal beings and we retain freedom of will, then couldn't one decide not to be reconsiled but then change his or her mind later, since we have forever?

If there's some seemingly arbitrary cutoff point, doesn't that mean free will has ended (assuming we ever really had it)?

 

[Katzpur]

That makes sense. Is there a point at which a choice is considered "final" and irreversable?

I believe it would be at the "Final Judgment." I definitely don't believe it's at the moment of death.

If we are eternal beings and we retain freedom of will, then couldn't one decide not to be reconsiled but then change his or her mind later, since we have forever?

If there's some seemingly arbitrary cutoff point, doesn't that mean free will has ended (assuming we ever really had it)?

Free will doesn't mean that our choices are without consequences. The cut-off point will be in no way arbitrary. No one will be judged in ignorance.

 

[lilithu]

I have one question for you, lilithu. Does your belief allow for individuals who sincerely do not want to be reconciled to God, or do you believe there are no such people? Mormonism grants that there may be a few that come to have a perfect knowledge of God and, having that knowledge, consciously reject Him. These are those that the Bible says have blasphemed against the Holy Ghost and cannot be forgiven, either in this life or the next. These will be infinitesimally few in number, but they be eternally damned. The vast, vast majority (even murderers, rapists, etc.) will eventually be granted some measure of heavenly glory.

Personally, I don't believe in an afterlife, because I don't believe in an eternal soul. The way I interpret universal salvation is that salvation is in this life, heaven is this earth when God's will is done on earth, and no one is saved unless everyone is saved. For me, salvation is communal. I do believe that we all ultimately return to God, since all is God, but not as individual souls.

What I was relating before was the argument given by my Universalist forefather, Hosea Ballou. He believed that after death, everyone went to heaven whether they wanted to or not. As you can imagine, many people thought that was preposterous. So the next generation there were "Restorationist Universalists." In this case, "restoration" meant restoring the doctrine back a bit. They still believed in universal salvation, but they believed that every person would have go through a process of reconciliation with God first. This makes more sense to me too.

As for the people who will choose to reject God regardless, my argument would be that God is infinitely patient. Perhaps not everyone goes to heaven, but no one is barred from it, ever. I simply do not understand the idea that there is a "cut-off date" after which it's too late and you're damned forever. it doesn't fit with Jesus' parables of the prodigal son and the lost lamb.

 

[zenzero]

Friend Elvendon,
Universal Salvation.
It is absolutely correct.
The easterner religious understanding is that the soul never dies and it remains by taking births till it achieves salvation / nirvana. One may be revolutionary and try and achieve nirvana in this life itself or be evolutionary and wait for many births till all desires are fulfilled and salvation / nirvana happens on its own accord.

Understanding the same concept in another way.
Everything comes from that Nothingness and when its function is over, goes back to Nothingness.

Everything is part of god and the human mind does not allow or creates barriers to allow that understanding but eventually it has to happen as it has to go back to its roots by nature.

Love & rgds

 

[Wandered Off]

Free will doesn't mean that our choices are without consequences. The cut-off point will be in no way arbitrary. No one will be judged in ignorance.

Agreed. Free will means having the ability to choose, which we apparently have for a while on the presumption that it's of great value, but then there's this Final Judgment at which time it's removed permanently. If we continue to be dynamic beings, what if after billions of millennia, someone has a change of heart or is tired of the life he or she chose? In the scheme of things, when one considers eternity, the existence of a cutoff point will inevitably mean that the amount of time we are forced to live with our decision will be completely dwarfed by the amount of time we had to make it. We would indeed be in ignorance of that kind of consequence, because we simply can't fathom the infinite, at least in our present state.

 

[lilithu]

If we continue to be dynamic beings, what if after billions of millennia, someone has a change of heart or is tired of the life he or she chose? In the scheme of things, when one considers eternity, the existence of a cutoff point will inevitably mean that the amount of time we are forced to live with our decision will be completely dwarfed by the amount of time we had to make it.

Exactly. :yes:

 

[Katzpur]

Agreed. Free will means having the ability to choose, which we apparently have for a while on the presumption that it's of great value, but then there's this Final Judgment at which time it's removed permanently. If we continue to be dynamic beings, what if after billions of millennia, someone has a change of heart or is tired of the life he or she chose? In the scheme of things, when one considers eternity, the existence of a cutoff point will inevitably mean that the amount of time we are forced to live with our decision will be completely dwarfed by the amount of time we had to make it. We would indeed be in ignorance of that kind of consequence, because we simply can't fathom the infinite, at least in our present state.

I agree with what you're saying, at least hypothetically. In actuality, I believe that everyone who has ever lived will have a good enough understanding of who God is and whether they want to spend eternity with Him to make that decision by the time the Final Judgment rolls around. I don't believe God is going to have some sort of arbitrary cut-off date. Also, I don't think that the concept of time is very useful in discussing this subject. As long as we're in the middle of this mortal experience, there is only so much we can learn and progress within a given timeframe. We don't really know how quickly we will be able to progress in our knowledge after we die. We may be able to come to an understanding of spiritual truths much, much more quickly than we did here.

 

[crystalonyx]

Universal salvation somehow implies non-believers are bound by the beliefs of Christianity?

Totally illogical.