Universal Salvation?

[sojourner]

If universalism is, as James said earlier, a hope for humanity, I would add this:

If God became one of us in the person of Jesus, thereby reconciling humanity with Divinity, doesn't that elevate humanity to the point where we should hold out such great hope for it? Many of the posts here (Christian ones, I might add!) don't seem to hold out such great hope for humanity, especially if we take into consideration the Christ Event.

 

[IsmailaGodHasHeard]

I believe that salvation is based on a relationship with Jesus Christ only. Please read John 14:6, and Acts 4:12.

 

[Acim]

I believe that salvation is based on a relationship with Jesus Christ only. Please read John 14:6, and Acts 4:12.

John 14:6 is not about Jesus, and is resounding proclamation of universal salvation.

Acts 4:12 is implying salvation found only in Jesus. It is not the spoken words of Jesus. Closer to the words of an idolater. Though that is just my theological opinion on the (entire) passage.

 

[Katzpur]

I believe that salvation is based on a relationship with Jesus Christ only. Please read John 14:6, and Acts 4:12.

But what about the millions of people who lived their entire lives without having had the opportunity to have a "relationship with Jesus Christ." (I hope you're not going to pretend that such people don't exist.)

 

[heksesang]

I believe that salvation is based on a relationship with Jesus Christ only. Please read John 14:6, and Acts 4:12.

The salvation comes through Jesus because we follow his teachings. Through his teachings of love, humanity has a chance of salvation, hence salvation comes through him.

I also want to note that John 14:6 says nothing about any personal relationship with Jesus.

 

[Shiranui117]

Something I have been thinking about for a long time is Apocatastasis - that is, universal salvation. Originally posited over a thousand years ago by Origen, a greek early church scholar, and later carried on by many thinkers from Saint Gregory of Nyssa to Julian of Norwich, it teaches that all moral agents will be ultimately saved - though evil individuals will be punished for an undefined length of time - even the sourest, most evil devil will return to God.

This teaching was declared anathema by the Synod of Constantinople in 543. My question is, what do other posters here think about this teaching? Do you think it should be more readily accepted by modern Christians or do you believe there is a better justification for eternal punishment?

Blessed be the Holy Three

Elvendon

It's my understanding that Apokatastasis wasn't necessarily declared anathema because there's anything wrong with the belief itself. But when you start teaching as a fact that all WILL be saved, that's where you cross the line. You can certainly personally BELIEVE in Apokatastasis, but you just can't teach it as a certainty. We don't actually know for sure whether everyone will be saved; Apokatastasis should therefore be limited to the realm of hope and personal opinion.

EDIT: Furthermore, I'll note that, in the Orthodox Church (the Church to which both Origen and Gregory of Nyssa belonged), Heaven and Hell are viewed as states in how we react to God's Presence--Hell is a negative reaction to God's Love and Presence, because we have set ourselves against Him, or because we know we have sinned against that perfect Love, and Heaven is a blissful acceptance and communion with God. So theoretically, one could go from "Hell" to "Heaven" by ceasing to reject God, and "serving our sentence" for our sins, as it were. That's where Apokatastasis comes in; surely no one would willfully remain in Hell and reject God's Love and Presence forever, right?

 

[SpentaMaynu]

Romans 14:11 appears to state otherwise. "For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God."

I've always assumed that this will be more of a 'even if you don't want to you will' type of situation. It seemed despotic, why do we fight for democracy and against dictators if the God we worship is a dictator Himself? Anyway, being attracted to Universalism I find this interpretation refreshing. Thank you

 

[nash8]

Something I have been thinking about for a long time is Apocatastasis - that is, universal salvation. Originally posited over a thousand years ago by Origen, a greek early church scholar, and later carried on by many thinkers from Saint Gregory of Nyssa to Julian of Norwich, it teaches that all moral agents will be ultimately saved - though evil individuals will be punished for an undefined length of time - even the sourest, most evil devil will return to God.

This teaching was declared anathema by the Synod of Constantinople in 543. My question is, what do other posters here think about this teaching? Do you think it should be more readily accepted by modern Christians or do you believe there is a better justification for eternal punishment?

Blessed be the Holy Three

Elvendon

Great post, I've never heard of this concpet before. I definietely think more Chrisitians should accept and preach this.

There was another thread on here just a little while ago, where Vouthon provided quotes from prominent church fathers from antiquity up until modern times, that talked about how there was no one path to heaven, and people like the Buddha and many other historically moral characters reached heaven as well. I saved the quotes, I'l try to post em on this thread if I get some time. Defintely some interesting reads, including some quotes from Popes themselves.

 

[ZenMonkey]

Great thread!!! Yes, I believe in Universal salvation. It's the only possible outcome (imo).

 

[chinu]

Something I have been thinking about for a long time is Apocatastasis - that is, universal salvation. Originally posited over a thousand years ago by Origen, a greek early church scholar, and later carried on by many thinkers from Saint Gregory of Nyssa to Julian of Norwich, it teaches that all moral agents will be ultimately saved - though evil individuals will be punished for an undefined length of time - even the sourest, most evil devil will return to God.

This teaching was declared anathema by the Synod of Constantinople in 543. My question is, what do other posters here think about this teaching? Do you think it should be more readily accepted by modern Christians or do you believe there is a better justification for eternal punishment?

Blessed be the Holy Three

Elvendon

IMO,
Punished for an "undefined length of Time" means that being in Time is punishment itself, where as heaven or God is Timeless, or No-time, or beyond Time.

 

[George-ananda]

Something I have been thinking about for a long time is Apocatastasis - that is, universal salvation. Originally posited over a thousand years ago by Origen, a greek early church scholar, and later carried on by many thinkers from Saint Gregory of Nyssa to Julian of Norwich, it teaches that all moral agents will be ultimately saved - though evil individuals will be punished for an undefined length of time - even the sourest, most evil devil will return to God.

This teaching was declared anathema by the Synod of Constantinople in 543. My question is, what do other posters here think about this teaching? Do you think it should be more readily accepted by modern Christians or do you believe there is a better justification for eternal punishment?

Blessed be the Holy Three

Elvendon

I think it should be more accepted. The doctrine of reincarnation I think fits in nicely with this too.

 

[sojourner]

Something I have been thinking about for a long time is Apocatastasis - that is, universal salvation. Originally posited over a thousand years ago by Origen, a greek early church scholar, and later carried on by many thinkers from Saint Gregory of Nyssa to Julian of Norwich, it teaches that all moral agents will be ultimately saved - though evil individuals will be punished for an undefined length of time - even the sourest, most evil devil will return to God.

This teaching was declared anathema by the Synod of Constantinople in 543. My question is, what do other posters here think about this teaching? Do you think it should be more readily accepted by modern Christians or do you believe there is a better justification for eternal punishment?

Blessed be the Holy Three

Elvendon

I think universalism lies at the heart of the gospel message. God saves the world. All of us. I don't completely agree with Origen, but I do believe that God created all of us, God desires a love relationship with all of us, God wants all of us to be with God, and I hold hope that, sooner or later, God will get what God wants, despite our propensity to "go it alone."

 

[Quiddity]

I think universalism lies at the heart of the gospel message. God saves the world. All of us. I don't completely agree with Origen, but I do believe that God created all of us, God desires a love relationship with all of us, God wants all of us to be with God, and I hold hope that, sooner or later, God will get what God wants, despite our propensity to "go it alone."

Doubt it. Given that you are in an island with a handful of others that don't reflect historical Christianity in the slightest. Whatever glimpses of universalism one does see, was deemed heretical. It's that simple. But one can make God and the scriptures say whatever they want I suppose.

 

[ZenMonkey]

I think universalism lies at the heart of the gospel message. God saves the world. All of us. I don't completely agree with Origen, but I do believe that God created all of us, God desires a love relationship with all of us, God wants all of us to be with God, and I hold hope that, sooner or later, God will get what God wants, despite our propensity to "go it alone."

:yes:


Ephesians 1:7-10

7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,
8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight
9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ
10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.


Colossians 1:15-20

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent.
19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell,
20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

 

[payak]

Universalism is not possible to the vast majority of Christians (Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant). The idea assumes that if given enough time everyone will choose God. It should be obvious to most of us that the most crystal clear evidence, logic, reason, etc. is not enough for some to still seek a relationship with God. They would deny Him even if He was right before their eyes.

~Victor

Have to disagree, everyone believes what they see, the problem remains they cannot see him and not only is there not crystal clear evidence, there is a complete lack of it.

 

[Quiddity]

Have to disagree, everyone believes what they see, the problem remains they cannot see him and not only is there not crystal clear evidence, there is a complete lack of it.

But the issue here isn't just about believing and whether there is enough evidence, but also about maintaining a relationship on what you do know. I could for example believe in God and simply disagree with him. I could believe in God and just not do His will.

 

[Knight of Albion]

Universal salvation - with a loving God how could there be anything else?

Through the 'cycle of life' all souls will be tried, tested and perfected. Learning (through experience), ascending the spheres of Light (through attaining a higher love) and ultimately returning to the Divine from whence they came.

 

[Knight of Albion]

When your 'time' comes and you pass over, all those you have loved and who have loved you (who have passed over) will be there to greet you.
Even your dog (Numerous NDEs involving pets) will be there - and no dog ever read the Bible or any other 'holy book'.
Life is a continuum.

 

[Quiddity]

Universal salvation - with a loving God how could there be anything else?

Quite simple really. I love my brother dearly, but he has a propensity to violence and is just a flat out killer. Perhaps he will change, but a loving God will allow someone to simply not choose Him through their acts and therefore can't be with God.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Quite simple really. I love my brother dearly, but he has a propensity to violence and is just a flat out killer. Perhaps he will change, but a loving God will allow someone to simply not choose Him through their acts and therefore can't be with God.

Well the thing is that you're limited, unlike God, who by virtue of being God has an infinite way of solving all those problems.