Universe & life coming into existence

[logician]

Well when we think about about how the universe came into existence there are only three things that come to our minds :

a- The universe has always existed.
b.The universe was popped into existence from nothing with absolutely no cause
c.The universe was caused to exist by something outside it.

We have strong reason to reject the first two alternatives.

Alternative Three is the most reasonable. There was a first cause. This cause existed eternally. It initiated the big bang and created the universe.

Astronomer Hugh Ross in his book, The Creator and the Cosmos, puts the argument this way: "If the universe arose out of a big bang, it must have had a beginning. If it had a beginning, it must have a beginner."

The probability of the universe miraculously coming into existence on its own has probability of almost zero.....see video below

[youtube]5ycnosY3p2s[/youtube]
YouTube - Is there a God Or only chance

Ok lets for the sake of argument agree that the universe came into existence on its own although the chances are very low.Lets see how life on earth came to existence.According to the theory, lifeless atoms formed amino acids by chance, amino acids formed proteins by chance, and finally proteins formed living creatures again by chance. However, the probability of a living creature being formed by coincidence has probability almost zero ,because even the simplest living cell is more sophisticated than any man-made structure in the world.The miraculous ability of blind chance did not stop there, as these cells then just happened to begin to multiply. Then another coincidence then organized these cells and produced the first living thing from them.


So Universe coming into existence and life to exist on Earth has probability something like 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001

According to this theory then, the probablity of a supernatural god springing into existence out of nothingness is zero.

 

[newhope101]

A Thousand Sons..I agree with you. Recent research has found that Omega appears to not be constant throughout the universe which, if validated, has huge implications for current big bang theoretical model, which only makes sense of the time after 10(-15) seconds anyway.

Regardless, when this is worked out there are many unresolved questions, like where did the matter within the singularity come from? Is our universe the most recent of a series of universes? What causes a singularity to start expanding? Perhaps the big bang was more like the big fluff.

Already we know this universe is very lucky that it has the phyical properties it does. It could have just as easily not coalescesed to form stars and planets. Much the same with abiogenesis. Many say the universe supports life yet claim life arose only once on earth, a planet with lots going for it.....All Luck and chance.

If people wish to believe in luck and chance that is fine. I believe God caused the universe to come into existence, and that sounds just as scientific as luck and chance.

 

[outhouse]

a- The universe has always existed.
b.The universe was popped into existence from nothing with absolutely no cause
c.The universe was caused to exist by something outside it.

#1 IMAGINATION is what takes over when we speak of things we do not know. It is human nature.

because science cannot go back beyond 14 billion years you would have a myth leed you into darkness. in my opinion

how the universe came to exist is a great question, to explain it away with myths of ancient man is not only barbaric and primitive but simply wrong in my opinion

A it has not existed as we know it now.

B it did not pop into existance

C No!, this thought is completely wrong in my opinion -- see #1

 

[PennyKay]

Oh dear, have you seriously not realized that some of that picture of the earth is in darkness? Therefore, giving the illusion that it is shaped like an ostrich egg!

I am starting to wonder if 'A Thousand Suns' is actually being serious or is just having us all on!

Also, many people new the earth was round, they figured this one out easily but watching ships disappear over the horizon.

 

[PennyKay]

Well when we think about about how the universe came into existence there are only three things that come to our minds :

a- The universe has always existed.
b.The universe was popped into existence from nothing with absolutely no cause
c.The universe was caused to exist by something outside it.

We have strong reason to reject the first two alternatives.

Alternative Three is the most reasonable. There was a first cause. This cause existed eternally. It initiated the big bang and created the universe.

Astronomer Hugh Ross in his book, The Creator and the Cosmos, puts the argument this way: "If the universe arose out of a big bang, it must have had a beginning. If it had a beginning, it must have a beginner."

The probability of the universe miraculously coming into existence on its own has probability of almost zero.....see video below

[youtube]5ycnosY3p2s[/youtube]
YouTube - Is there a God Or only chance

Ok lets for the sake of argument agree that the universe came into existence on its own although the chances are very low.Lets see how life on earth came to existence.According to the theory, lifeless atoms formed amino acids by chance, amino acids formed proteins by chance, and finally proteins formed living creatures again by chance. However, the probability of a living creature being formed by coincidence has probability almost zero ,because even the simplest living cell is more sophisticated than any man-made structure in the world.The miraculous ability of blind chance did not stop there, as these cells then just happened to begin to multiply. Then another coincidence then organized these cells and produced the first living thing from them.


So Universe coming into existence and life to exist on Earth has probability something like 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001

Hmmm...I think you're 'statistics' are a tad bias. However unlikely it was that the universe and life came into existence...they did, they're two things we can be sure of.

But what I always say is, when you take into consideration that there are about 100 billions galaxies in the known universe, with on average 100 billion stars in each of them, a large majority with planets orbiting them, is it so unlikely that just 1 of the those planets developed life...? I think not.

What's important to remember though is that statistics are only a useful mathematical tool, the results don't actually have any bearing on reality. They just give us a guide to make an educated guess on things that we have little evidence for, so please try and not take statistics too literally.

In regards to what caused the universe to exist, as others have rightly said, we can only make educated guesses at present. Evidence points that the universe is expanding at an increasing rate, which logically means that yesterday it was smaller, the day before that even smaller and so on to the point where the universe was just a single point...a singularity.

And a quick reminder, we know from quantum mechanics that an effect does not necessarily need a cause on the atomic scale, the singularity may not have needed a cause to expand...just a thought.

 

[PennyKay]

Well I think I already answered this
1)According to Earth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia The shape of the Earth is very close to that of an oblate spheroid' but its not exactly 'oblate spheroid'

2)Shape of Ostrich Egg isnt like

So it can be clearly noticed it's not that pointy as prolate spheroid , infact it would be more like Prolate+Oblate spheroid

3) I agree that Ostrich Egg and Shape of Earth is similar but not identical but the fact the shape of Earth is still changing---and in near future both of them could be identical----who knows

This post makes absolutely no sense and no point. An ostrich egg and the earth are NOT the same shape as lots of people have pointed out, nor do they resemble each other, I don't understand where you're going with the egg thing and what you're trying to prove, it's a load of nonsense!

 

[A Thousand Suns]

You missed my point and I never said Earth & Ostrich Egg have same shape , I said they are similar . My point ,that the earth had gone through different stages and shapes since it was first created ,and the shape of Earth is still changing ,at present the Earth's shape is somewhere in between an ostrich egg and a perfect sphere.Earth is wider as you approach the equator which is caused by centripetal force because of earths spinning .So what I was trying to tell was that maybe in future they might become identical

 

[PennyKay]

You missed my point and I never said Earth & Ostrich Egg have same shape , I said they are similar . My point ,that the earth had gone through different stages and shapes since it was first created ,and the shape of Earth is still changing ,at present the Earth's shape is somewhere in between an ostrich egg and a perfect sphere.Earth is wider as you approach the equator which is caused by centripetal force because of earths spinning .So what I was trying to tell was that maybe in future they might become identical

I really don't see where you are going with this, the earth doesn't resemble an ostrich egg, plus why do you think it will do in the future? Im really confused as to why you think this?

 

[A Thousand Suns]

A Thousand Sons..I agree with you. Recent research has found that Omega appears to not be constant throughout the universe which, if validated, has huge implications for current big bang theoretical model, which only makes sense of the time after 10(-15) seconds anyway.

Regardless, when this is worked out there are many unresolved questions, like where did the matter within the singularity come from? Is our universe the most recent of a series of universes? What causes a singularity to start expanding? Perhaps the big bang was more like the big fluff.

Already we know this universe is very lucky that it has the phyical properties it does. It could have just as easily not coalescesed to form stars and planets. Much the same with abiogenesis. Many say the universe supports life yet claim life arose only once on earth, a planet with lots going for it.....All Luck and chance.

If people wish to believe in luck and chance that is fine. I believe God caused the universe to come into existence, and that sounds just as scientific as luck and chance.

Exactly there are just too many miracles occurring ,which leads to our existence-----anything could have gone wrong in the process of our creation but everything went perfectly makes a person wonder that if there is a God who engineered this universe---Actually I'm quite sure he did

 

[A Thousand Suns]

I really don't see where you are going with this, the earth doesn't resemble an ostrich egg, plus why do you think it will do in the future? Im really confused as to why you think this?

Look i explained what I thought , I just don't wanna run in circles explaining the same stuff over and again and beside this is not the topic of the thread

 

[PennyKay]

Exactly there are just too many miracles occurring ,which leads to our existence-----anything could have gone wrong in the process of our creation but everything went perfectly makes a person wonder that if there is a God who engineered this universe---Actually I'm quite sure he did

Thats if you take the view point that the universe was created specifically for the development of life.

What about if life is simply the byproduct of the developing conditions of the universe? Is a God needed then?

 

[Reptillian]

I really don't see where you are going with this, the earth doesn't resemble an ostrich egg, plus why do you think it will do in the future? Im really confused as to why you think this?

Come on, they're topologically equivalent...give this guy a little wiggle room. I still maintain that my cup of coffee and my doughnut basically the same thing, topologically speaking.

 

[Reptillian]

Thats if you take the view point that the universe was created specifically for the development of life.

What about if life is simply the byproduct of the developing conditions of the universe? Is a God needed then?

I've always thought that God designed the universe for the specific purpose of creating dinosaurs. After spending millions of years toying with the dinosaur form and making them the epitome of coolness he had a great new idea...robot dinosaurs. He scrapped them and now everything is moving toward mankind creating mechanical life that will eventually overthrow it and give rise to robot dinosaurs. They will move into space and will spread throughout the universe.

You know, after typing it all out and reading it, my "the universe was created for robot dinosaurs" belief seems kind of silly. Perhaps now is the time for agnosticism.

 

[A Thousand Suns]

Thats if you take the view point that the universe was created specifically for the development of life.

What about if life is simply the byproduct of the developing conditions of the universe? Is a God needed then?

Actually no ,its not that simple ,the origin of life on Earth is the result of biggest chemical fluke in this entire universe---- even the simplest known cell is so unlikely to form by accident----it wouldn't happen twice in the entire observable universe.

And how can you ignore the fact , that all the physical laws seem to have been specifically designed for us ,if physical qualities had slightly different values , the life as we know it couldn't exist or stars & planets couldn't have formed or the the universe itself could have just collapsed-----seriously the creator has given his evidence sufficiently

How can ye reject the faith in Allah.- seeing that ye were without life, and He gave you life; then will He cause you to die, and will again bring you to life; and again to Him will ye return." [Quran 2:28]

 

[PolyHedral]

And how can you ignore the fact , that all the physical laws seem to have been specifically designed for us ,if physical qualities had slightly different values , the life as we know it couldn't exist or stars & planets couldn't have formed or the the universe itself could have just collapsed-----seriously the creator has given his evidence sufficiently

Play the lottery 10 million times, but only write down the result if you get the exact sequence 1, 3, 23, 27, 41, 49. Once you've done that, have a look at your results: it's rather unlikely that you would've got that exact sequence from purely random rolls, right?

 

[Kerr]

Actually no ,its not that simple ,the origin of life on Earth is the result of biggest chemical fluke in this entire universe---- even the simplest known cell is so unlikely to form by accident----it wouldn't happen twice in the entire observable universe.

That it did not happen by the hand of a deity does not mean it was an accident. On the other hand, assuming it was an accident... the larger the scale the more probable it is that something extremely improbable will happen. And considering the scale of the universe then life does not really seem that improbable.

And how can you ignore the fact , that all the physical laws seem to have been specifically designed for us ,if physical qualities had slightly different values , the life as we know it couldn't exist or stars & planets couldn't have formed or the the universe itself could have just collapsed-----seriously the creator has given his evidence sufficiently

They don´t seem to have been specifically designed for us. It just appears that way to us because we evolved to live in it.

Also, I would like to point out that even if I would accept your assertion then you would still have to prove that it is your creator that is this creator. Maybe it is someone else, and maybe that creator doesn´t even care about us. We may just be a byproduct. There are so many options that to claim that "the creator has given his evidence sufficiently" is a very inaccurate statement, to put it mildly.

 

[Kerr]

How can ye reject the faith in Allah.- seeing that ye were without life, and He gave you life; then will He cause you to die, and will again bring you to life; and again to Him will ye return." [Quran 2:28]

It is not a matter of rejecting faith but accepting it, you know. It is not an truth that everyone knows that Allah created us. I for one do not know it. Which is why I do not have faith in him, because no one has managed to prove to me that he exists in the first place.

 

[outhouse]

Exactly there are just too many miracles occurring ,which leads to our existence-----anything could have gone wrong in the process of our creation but everything went perfectly makes a person wonder that if there is a God who engineered this universe---Actually I'm quite sure he did

name a miracle please, enlighten us. make a valid point for creation please.


could have gone wrong??? do you know haw many times things did go wrong???? were dang lucky to be here at all and with human nature, the odds of us lasting allot longer are running thin. One asteroid and were checked out. with over population at hand, one pandemic and were all checked out.

 

[David M]

and the shape of Earth is still changing ,at present the Earth's shape is somewhere in between an ostrich egg and a perfect sphere.

No its not. This is the point that you keep ignoring. A perfect sphere is in between the shape of an ostrich egg and the actual shape of the earth.

And how can you ignore the fact , that all the physical laws seem to have been specifically designed for us ,if physical qualities had slightly different values , the life as we know it couldn't exist or stars & planets couldn't have formed or the the universe itself could have just collapsed-----seriously the creator has given his evidence sufficiently

Except for the weak nuclear force for example, one of the 4 fundamental forces of the universe which could be reduced or even eliminated and differing values of the other 3 main forces would produce the same universe that we would see today.

 

[PennyKay]

That it did not happen by the hand of a deity does not mean it was an accident. On the other hand, assuming it was an accident... the larger the scale the more probable it is that something extremely improbable will happen. And considering the scale of the universe then life does not really seem that improbable.

They don´t seem to have been specifically designed for us. It just appears that way to us because we evolved to live in it.

Also, I would like to point out that even if I would accept your assertion then you would still have to prove that it is your creator that is this creator. Maybe it is someone else, and maybe that creator doesn´t even care about us. We may just be a byproduct. There are so many options that to claim that "the creator has given his evidence sufficiently" is a very inaccurate statement, to put it mildly.

I have to agree, I honestly think that we are simply the byproduct of the conditions of the universe, but obviously nobody knows for sure.

I definitely do not agree with 'A Thousand Suns' that its obvious that the universe was made for life, we've got a lot going against us. Just one asteroid a few km across could destroy the human race...there's a lot of asteroids out there! Water, one of the most abundant things on the planet, is only keeps us alive at a cool liquid temperature, if God created the world for humans, why did he make freezing and boiling water water harmful and deadly? Why did he make virus'? Why did he make the human body with so many faults?

We are by no means perfect nor do we live in a perfect ecosystem. The human race and much life on earth has evolved to live in the conditions present. As we all know, global warming is a big issue threatening our ecosystem, turning it into a place in which we couldn't survive. Why would God do that? Are we just his toys to play around with? When he gets bored, does he warm the globe up, or throw an asteroid at us to get rid of us so he can invent something new to play with?

I just want to point out though, that a lot of religious people think that being created by God makes us special, not being created by a God makes us insignificant. I couldn't disagree more. I think that the chances of us evolving were little, but we are here, we do exist, that on it's own, makes us very special.

We may or may not be alone in the vast space, but we should marvel at the universe, at it's beauty, just for simply existing, regardless of how it came to be.