'Unliftable Stone' Paradox - Logically flawed argument people make even today

[dybmh]

I have a vastly different view of the Torah.

Does that prohibit temporarily adopting a neutral point of the view for the sake of a greater good?

Does that prohibit mutual understanding?

A view that is inclusive of Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah and very human on this planet (in all the worlds of God)

This says nothing of the Torah.

I would have to assume that view may be seen by you as "attacking the Torah and misrepresenting it".

Why would you assume that? What did I do wrong such that you would assume I would judge so unfairly? Do you not know me at all?

If that is not the case then I can embrace your request in the positive.

It is not the case, Tony.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Omnipotence

Omnipotence means having the power to do anything that is logically possible.

om·nip·o·tence
/ämˈnipədəns/
noun
the quality of having unlimited or very great power.
"God's omnipotence"

Notice, there is no mention that the task has to be logical.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

That does not demonstrate the possibility of miracles. I am not asking if something will happen, I am asking if it possible to happen. I may not go and toss a ball of of my roof tomorrow but I can demonstrate that is it possible that I can do that tomorrow. On the other hand I can't show you that a baseball can be a basketball at the same time. I cannot show that it is possible because it violates the law of non contradiction.

To demonstrate a miracle is possible you need to provide what mechanism it is possible through. How can a miracle happen?

Possible: that may exist or happen, but that is not certain or probable.

May exist. You are using another version of possible than I do.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Does that prohibit temporarily adopting a neutral point of the view for the sake of a greater good?

Does that prohibit mutual understanding?



This says nothing of the Torah.



Why would you assume that? What did I do wrong such that you would assume I would judge so unfairly? Do you not know me at all?



It is not the case, Tony.

Great that is not the case, Thanks for the advice. The greater good can be the doing away with religion if they do become the cause of disunity. Most likely a mutual understanding is the ultimate goal of all faiths. You have done nothing wrong.

This OP does not seem the place to discuss. I will not be around much on RF, which must make a few very happy, if the disappearing OP,s are any indication.

I wish you all the best in life and faith, Regards Tony

 

[Aupmanyav]

A view that is inclusive of Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah and very human on this planet (in all the worlds of God)

That leaves out Judaism (though you consider some of its prophets as 'manifestations of God'), Zoroastrianism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Confucianism, Taoism, Shintoism, and many more native religions.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Omnipotence
Omnipotence means having the power to do anything that is logically possible. It's important to understand that this does not mean doing things that are self-contradictory or nonsensical.

I only see impotence of God and not omnipotence. He cannot stop war in Gaza or Ukraine along with so many other things (Climatic disasters).
Of course, some of them are man-mde, but God (as you believe) has the power to turn things around.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That leaves out Judaism (though you consider some of its prophets as 'manifestations of God'), Zoroastrianism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Confucianism, Taoism, Shintoism, and many more native religions.

No it does not.

Regards Tony

 

[1213]

How about a married bachelor? Is that a good enough example to explain what a contradiction is and and why it's by definitions?

A man who is married to a woman and is bachelor of science? It is possible that I may not know all the answers. That doesn't mean God could not have a way.

 

[1213]

How?
It is logically impossible to lift a stone that is "too heavy to lift".
..so the question is "Can G-d create something that is impossible for Him to lift?"
The answer is obvious, given His omnipotence.

It is possible to create such a stone that He can't lift. Later, if He wants to lift it, He can create more power for Him to lift it.

 

[muhammad_isa]

om·nip·o·tence
/ämˈnipədəns/
noun
the quality of having unlimited or very great power.
"God's omnipotence"

Notice, there is no mention that the task has to be logical.

Does the definition of omnipotence itself, have to be logical?
It is the statement, and not "the task" that has to make logical sense.

Given: G-d is able to do all things

..so can G-d can lift stones of unlimited weight? Yes.
Can G-d make stones that are too heavy for Him to lift? No, we have just said so.

If you say .. "yes", because He is omnipotent, it's gibberish .. it can't be both.
This has nothing to do with omnipotence .. It is about the logical construct of statements.

It is not the job of a language dictionary to point that out. It's the job of a logician, or
the person that is claiming G-d's omnipotence.

If a theist believes that Omnipotence includes the logical impossible, then that is what they believe.
..but atheists have no business in defining attributes of G-d, in any case.

 

[dybmh]

Thanks for the advice.

What advice?

The greater good can be the doing away with religion if they do become the cause of disunity.

The greater good is peace. This is peace-making. Not reunion. After there is peace then there is a reunion.

Tony, Before peace, if there is reunion, the consequence is WAR.

Most likely a mutual understanding is the ultimate goal of all faiths.

If so, that is universal common ground, for those of faith. An excellent tool to keep on the ready. If the conflict ( in this case specifically it is a perceived misrepresentation of Torah or a perceived attack on Torah ) is not with those of faith, we'll need a different approach.

This OP does not seem the place to discuss. I will not be around much on RF, which must make a few very happy, if the disappearing OP,s are any indication.

Understood.

I wish you all the best in life and faith, Regards Tony

You as well, friend. God speed.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Miracles are a special class of events, they do not need mechanism. They happen by grace of God and can happen or be performed by special people chosen by God. For example, Jesus walked on water, turned water into wine. Mohammad met Jesus and other prophets when he rode to heaven on a white beast (Burak). Bahaollah could perform miracles, but did not do that. Perhaps because he wanted people to have faith in himself and his God by their own will.
()

Then the mechanism is a god. Can you demonstrate that is the case?

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Example?

Can god make a baseball that is hit into play both fair and not fair at the same time? Can God make me at home and not at home at the same time?

 

[firedragon]

A man who is married to a woman and is bachelor of science?

Nope.

 

[dybmh]

Can god make a baseball that is hit into play both fair and not fair at the same time?

yes

Can God make me at home and not at home at the same time?

yes

Many-worlds interpretation - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[wellwisher]

Uhhh... What?

Making a stone so heavy you cannot lift it, is only a paradox, where there is gravity. If you are in space and there is zero gravity, anything will float even a heavy stone. The sun just floats in space without having to sit on a foundation.

Without gravity there is no up or down. We only define up and down based on the direction of gravity, with gravity pulling to the center of gravity. If I am at the north pole and you were at the south pole up and down are opposites, but both pull to the center of gravity. But in space and zero gravity, there is no down or up, so lifting does not apply, since lifting is based on the direction away from the center of gravity. Without gravity there is no center to define down or up. God gets to use his power and omniscience to overcome paradoxes.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Can god make a baseball that is hit into play both fair and not fair at the same time? Can God make me at home and not at home at the same time?

..and what has that got to do with miracles?
Are you aware of any miracle in the Bible that fits that description?

What you describe are 'logical impossibilities' .. and I for one, rule those out when speaking about what G-d can and can't do.

Otherwise, we might as well be talking gibberish, with no logical sense in anything we say.
When I say that G-d is Omnipotent, I do not consider myself talking gibberish.

..but if you include logical impossibilities in Omnipotence, I would be.

 

[firedragon]

yes



yes

Many-worlds interpretation - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I think it's imperative that you read about logical contradictions.

Contradiction and Consistency

www.csus.edu

Also read about logical impossibility.

[M07] Types of possibility

philosophy.hku.hk

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Logical possibility refers to the characteristic of a statement, concept, or event being free from internal contradictions and thus conceivable within the framework of logic. It means that something can be imagined or described without violating the basic principles of logic, such as the law of non-contradiction, which states that contradictory statements cannot both be true at the same time and in the same sense. In essence, if a scenario or proposition can be coherently formulated without leading to a logical inconsistency, it is considered logically possible, even if it may not be physically, empirically, or practically feasible.

miracles are events that defy the laws of nature and are usually attributed to a divine or supernatural agency. It does not by default mean a logical contradiction. That's the definition of a logical possibility.

If you cannot understand that, cannot go any further. Thanks.

I do understand. You need to give evidence to the claim that a miracle does not have to be logically contradictory.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Exactly what the OP is talking about. The bogus argument of the OP made by so many atheists since of late in this very forum is "asking for a miracle which is a violation of the law of non-contradiction".

Mate. Miracles are not violating the law of non-contradiction. Only the atheist argument in the OP does.

In all honesty, I am quite surprised to see so many people not doing a minute of research, and not understand the most basic logic. Basic. They are far too groomed by the evangelists and those illogical arguments. Honestly, it's unbelievable and quite common.

If you think a miracle by default breaks the law of non-contradiction please explain logically.

I am not claiming that. You are claiming that some miracles do not violate this law or the other laws of logic. Can you support this? Telling people how uninformed they are is not doing that.