'Unliftable Stone' Paradox - Logically flawed argument people make even today

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Of course.

The concept of a miracle does not inherently involve a contradiction. Simple.

How does this demonstrate miracles are logically possible? This is just another claim.

 

[Alien826]

You know, I have always wondered why people say "G-d" with a hyphen. I know this is not related to the topic at hand, but if you don't mind, why is that?

This will explain it.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Well, what is a miracle?
Is it defined as something that cannot logically happen? No.

It is defined as something that happens that is 'out-of-the ordinary'.
..such as a person vanishing into thin air .. that is physically impossible, and not logically
impossible. There is no contradiction in terms.

A 'married bachelor' is not a physical impossibilty, but a logical one. The statement is not coherent..
It contradicts itself.

I would say a miracle involves violating logic or known scientific theories or laws. Not just an unknown cause but known to have violated these laws. Supernatural so to speak.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Something which is possible is something which has the potential to happen in the future. And there’s no way of knowing that for certain until it happens; regardless of whatever has happened before.

I am asking for possibility not certainty.

 

[muhammad_isa]

How does this demonstrate miracles are logically possible?

Perhaps you can explain why they are not logically possible?

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Well in the philosophical sense it in effect depends on what you take for granted for metaphysics, ontologgy and logic.
In one sense if you accept the limitation of induction then you can't rule out another cause and effect for a miracle. Thus is not impossible.

As for evidence in the naturalistic sense that in effect depends if you use methodlogical or metaphysical naturalism in some sense as to how you view the idea of a miracle.

I asked if you can demonstrate possibility not if's about what I believe. Can you demonstrate the possibility of miracles in your world view?

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Perhaps you can explain why they are not logically possible?

I have not claimed that.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I would say a miracle involves violating logic..

What logic, could miracles violate?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I asked if you can demonstrate possibility not if's about what I believe. Can you demonstrate the possibility of miracles in your world view?

Well, demonstrate have 2 usages, natural and philsophy/proof. And yes, I can do that for philosophy. It is very simple. You can't show as true that there will be no miracles in the future. Or you can't show that the universe is natural as not allowing for miracles.
Thus miracles are not impossible and thus they are possible.
Probable is something else, but you asked for possible.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

What logic, could miracles violate?

How about the law of noncontradiction.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Well, demonstrate have 2 usages, natural and philsophy/proof. And yes, I can do that for philosophy. It is very simple. You can't show as true that there will be no miracles in the future. Or you can't show that the universe is natural as not allowing for miracles.

That does not demonstrate the possibility of miracles. I am not asking if something will happen, I am asking if it possible to happen. I may not go and toss a ball of of my roof tomorrow but I can demonstrate that is it possible that I can do that tomorrow. On the other hand I can't show you that a baseball can be a basketball at the same time. I cannot show that it is possible because it violates the law of non contradiction.

To demonstrate a miracle is possible you need to provide what mechanism it is possible through. How can a miracle happen?

 

[Aupmanyav]

If there is someone on the forum who is, in my judgement, attacking the Torah and misrepresenting it, will you help me to negotiate with them? As a sort of neutral 3rd party? Not taking sides, but, to help us understand each other better and hopefully broker a compromise or mutual understanding?

Sure, I will - because in spite of being a monotheistic religion, Judaism keeps to itself. It is not a predator religion.

 

[Aupmanyav]

To demonstrate a miracle is possible you need to provide what mechanism it is possible through. How can a miracle happen?

Miracles are a special class of events, they do not need mechanism. They happen by grace of God and can happen or be performed by special people chosen by God. For example, Jesus walked on water, turned water into wine. Mohammad met Jesus and other prophets when he rode to heaven on a white beast (Burak). Bahaollah could perform miracles, but did not do that. Perhaps because he wanted people to have faith in himself and his God by their own will.
()

 

[dybmh]

Sure, I will - because in spite of being a monotheistic religion, Judaism keeps to itself. It is not a predator religion.

thank you, Aup.

 

[firedragon]

The difference between a logical impossibility and a physical impossibility, is that the former would defy the laws of logic while the latter would defy the laws of physics. Since both the laws of logic and the laws of physics are abstract, your objection is merely semantic

Logical possibility refers to the characteristic of a statement, concept, or event being free from internal contradictions and thus conceivable within the framework of logic. It means that something can be imagined or described without violating the basic principles of logic, such as the law of non-contradiction, which states that contradictory statements cannot both be true at the same time and in the same sense. In essence, if a scenario or proposition can be coherently formulated without leading to a logical inconsistency, it is considered logically possible, even if it may not be physically, empirically, or practically feasible.

Physical possibility refers to the characteristic of an event or state of affairs being achievable within the constraints of the natural laws and conditions that govern our universe. It implies that something can occur without violating the fundamental principles of physics, chemistry, biology, and other natural sciences as they are currently understood. In other words, if an event or state is consistent with and allowable under the existing natural laws, it is considered physically possible. This includes not only what has been observed to happen but also what could happen given our understanding of how the physical world operates, even if it might be highly improbable or yet unobserved.

 

[muhammad_isa]

How about the law of noncontradiction.

Example?

 

[firedragon]

How does this demonstrate miracles are logically possible?

Logical possibility refers to the characteristic of a statement, concept, or event being free from internal contradictions and thus conceivable within the framework of logic. It means that something can be imagined or described without violating the basic principles of logic, such as the law of non-contradiction, which states that contradictory statements cannot both be true at the same time and in the same sense. In essence, if a scenario or proposition can be coherently formulated without leading to a logical inconsistency, it is considered logically possible, even if it may not be physically, empirically, or practically feasible.

miracles are events that defy the laws of nature and are usually attributed to a divine or supernatural agency. It does not by default mean a logical contradiction. That's the definition of a logical possibility.

If you cannot understand that, cannot go any further. Thanks.

 

[dybmh]

This will explain it.

... Monty Python... doing the Lord's work.

 

[firedragon]

How about the law of noncontradiction.

Exactly what the OP is talking about. The bogus argument of the OP made by so many atheists since of late in this very forum is "asking for a miracle which is a violation of the law of non-contradiction".

Mate. Miracles are not violating the law of non-contradiction. Only the atheist argument in the OP does.

In all honesty, I am quite surprised to see so many people not doing a minute of research, and not understand the most basic logic. Basic. They are far too groomed by the evangelists and those illogical arguments. Honestly, it's unbelievable and quite common.

If you think a miracle by default breaks the law of non-contradiction please explain logically.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

If there is someone on the forum who is, in my judgement, attacking the Torah and misrepresenting it, will you help me to negotiate with them? As a sort of neutral 3rd party? Not taking sides, but, to help us understand each other better and hopefully broker a compromise or mutual understanding?

That is a complex question, as I have a vastly different view of the Torah.

Spoiler: view

A view that is inclusive of Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah and very human on this planet (in all the worlds of God)

I would have to assume that view may be seen by you as "attacking the Torah and misrepresenting it".

If that is not the case then I can embrace your request in the positive.

Regards Tony