'Unliftable Stone' Paradox - Logically flawed argument people make even today

[Madsaac]

1. Miracles
A common definition is that miracles are events that defy the laws of nature and are usually attributed to a divine or supernatural agency. They are extraordinary and not explainable by natural laws alone.

Surely, when you read this, miracles are simply illogical

In classical theism, logic is Logic is not something external to God but is seen as reflecting God's rational nature. In this sense, logic is inherent in the nature of God and is a part of the divine essence. It's an eternal truth.

Yes, in classic theism only. The only logic God created, is the logic in theist's heads.

And the idea of omnipotence is a mute point because the only thing with great power is nature and thankfully, for the most part its balanced, that's your paradox

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Surely, when you read this, miracles are simply illogical

Please do burden of proof on the bold claim.

Yes, in classic theism only. The only logic God created, is the logic in theist's heads.

And the idea of omnipotence is a mute point because the only thing with great power is nature and thankfully, for the most part its balanced, that's your paradox

Well, no. There is also deism. Theism: belief in the existence of a god or gods, specifically of a creator who intervenes in the universe.

In effect this about logic is as much a result of philosophy as it is religion.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Yes, in classic theism only..

If we all employ different ideas of logic, then how can we understand what each of us is saying?
No .. statements are evaluated according to positives and negatives etc.

Language grammar is meaningful to all .. hopefully.

 

[Madsaac]

Please do burden of proof on the bold claim.

No, I won't because the point is clear, miracles to the large majority of people are illogical.

Well, no. There is also deism. Theism: belief in the existence of a god or gods, specifically of a creator who intervenes in the universe.

Yeah both then

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

No, I won't because the point is clear, miracles to the large majority of people are illogical.
...

Well, then it is without proof as it stands and an unsupported claim.

 

[Madsaac]

If we all employ different ideas of logic, then how can we understand what each of us is saying?
No .. statements are evaluated according to positives and negatives etc.

Language grammar is meaningful to all .. hopefully.

All I was saying that theist believe God created logic, is that right?

Where I think logic was created differently, thats all

 

[Madsaac]

Well, then it is without proof as it stands and an unsupported claim.

So you think miracles are logical? Yes or No

Ask ten people and get back to me on the results

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

So you think miracles are logical? Yes or No

Ask ten people and get back to me on the results

You have left out unknowable or irrelevant as logic doesn't apply in the strong sense. The hidden presumption could be that the universe is logical, but that is not a given.
Well, reality and logic are decided by majority decsion then.

My personal answer is I don't know the ontlogical status of objective reality and thus I can't know if miracales exist or not, and thus know if they are illogical or not.

 

[muhammad_isa]

All I was saying that theist believe God created logic, is that right?

It's irrelevant where it comes from..
Paradoxes as in the OP rely on how statements are evaluated.

..and we are showing you what is wrong with common misinterpretations.
Each and every one of us understand yes and no, true or false.

 

[dybmh]

So you think miracles are logical? Yes or No

Yes, it's a special case. It's logical to expect Illogical phenomena. A "miracle" is the label assigned to these logically-illogical phenomena.

1. Premise: Scientific explanations for phenomena when they are discovered always produce new questions for further scientific investigations.
2. If so: The quantitative relationship of each new discovery to the the opportunities for further investigations is One-to-Many
3. If so: As time goes on it is not only impossible that we, humans, will discover all there is to be discovered, but the number of "known unknowns" is increasing over time, not decreasing.
4. If so: it is logical to expect there will always be many unexplained phenomena, occurring frequently, each and everyday.
5. If so: the human mind would be overwhelmed contemplating and considering all of the unexplained phenomena it encounters throughout its daily activities.
6. Therefore: It's logical to categorize these unexplained phenomena into a special category, Miracles, so that the human mind does not occupy itself , and become distracted or disturbed by all that is unexplained and known to be unknown.

 

[Madsaac]

You have left out unknowable or irrelevant as logic doesn't apply in the strong sense. The hidden presumption could be that the universe is logical, but that is not a given.
Well, reality and logic are decided by majority decsion then.

My personal answer is I don't know the ontlogical status of objective reality and thus I can't know if miracales exist or not, and thus know if they are illogical or not.

A very thoughtful response and I respect that.

However, just in the hear and now. Do you think miracles are illogical? Or a word that is similar to illogical, like 'unfounded' or 'flawed' or 'unreasonable'

Or if you dont know, which way are you leaning towards, can you answer that?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

A very thoughtful response and I respect that.

However, just in the hear and now. Do you think miracles are illogical? Or a word that is similar to illogical, like 'unfounded' or 'flawed' or 'unreasonable'

Or if you dont know, which way are you leaning towards, can you answer that?

I don't know whether miracles are in effect real or not. Thus I can't use that in regards to logic as for existence or not.

As for in effect the game of rational, that is as far as I can tell in part subjective and depends on a given person individual cognition.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

No? What do you mean?

It hurts my head. I have to look up words such as paradox. I guess some of us are built without much smarts, but for some reason are given receptive hearts. It is God's to give and it is God's to take away.

Luckily I did not attempt theological studies.

I understand the concept a bit though, there was a Baha'i Blacksmith that stumped a very knowledgeable Muslim Scholar demonstrating a logically implausible argument that the learned had not considered. I always loved that story.

Regards Tony

 

[Glaurung]

His Omnipotence means power to do all that is intrinsically possible, not to do the intrinsically impossible. You may attribute miracles to Him, but not nonsense. This is no limit to His power. If you choose to say, ‘God can give a creature free will and at the same time withhold free will from it,’ you have not succeeded in saying anything about God: meaningless combinations of words do not suddenly acquire meaning simply because we prefix to them the two other words, 'God can.' It remains true that all things are possible with God: the intrinsic impossibilities are not things but nonentities. It is no more possible for God than for the weakest of His creatures to carry out both of two mutually exclusive alternatives; not because His power meets an obstacle, but because nonsense remains nonsense even when we talk it about God.
CS Lewis​

 

[Madsaac]

Yes, it's a special case. It's logical to expect Illogical phenomena. A "miracle" is the label assigned to these logically-illogical phenomena.

1. Premise: Scientific explanations for phenomena when they are discovered always produce new questions for further scientific investigations.
2. If so: The quantitative relationship of each new discovery to the the opportunities for further investigations is One-to-Many
3. If so: As time goes on it is not only impossible that we, humans, will discover all there is to be discovered, but the number of "known unknowns" is increasing over time, not decreasing.
4. If so: it is logical to expect there will always be many unexplained phenomena, occurring frequently, each and everyday.
5. If so: the human mind would be overwhelmed contemplating and considering all of the unexplained phenomena it encounters throughout its daily activities.
6. Therefore: It's logical to categorize these unexplained phenomena into a special category, Miracles, so that the human mind does not occupy itself , and become distracted or disturbed by all that is unexplained and known to be unknown.

I have to disagree, maybe 'illogical' is the wrong term. And it may also depend on your definition of miracle.

Or maybe I'm ignorant to the 'many unexplained phenomena' you are referring too.

 

[dybmh]

It hurts my head. I have to look up words such as paradox. I guess some of us are built without much smarts, but for some reason are given receptive hearts. It is God's to give and it is God's to take away.

Luckily I did not attempt theological studies.

I understand the concept a bit though, there was a Baha'i Blacksmith that stumped a very knowledgeable Muslim Scholar demonstrating a logically implausible argument that the learned had not considered. I always loved that story.

Regards Tony

There's other much simpler ways to address the question without symbolic notation and classical logic, but those are not proof that the concept of omnipotence is logically consistent. However, I doubt very highly that those who are asserting the logical inconsistency know how to determine whether or not this is the case.

 

[dybmh]

Or maybe I'm ignorant to the 'many unexplained phenomena' you are referring too.

Have you considered your own talents, flaws, affinities, and aversions? What is the explanation for these? It's one example which can be rather easily extended to each and every human being on the planet. Do you disagree? That's a lot of unexplained phenomena. Isn't it?

 

[dybmh]

His Omnipotence means power to do all that is intrinsically possible

When the going gets tough... give up? And lower the expectations?

Atheist: "Omnipotence isn't logically consistent."

CSLewis: "Yeah, my God isn't actually omnipotent."

 

[Glaurung]

When the going gets tough... give up? And lower the expectations?

I don't think even God can ignore the law of non-contradiction. I don't doubt that God can suspend the ordinary operation of nature (perform a miracle) but I don't think he can do anything incoherent.

 

[dybmh]

I don't think even God can ignore the law of non-contradiction. I don't doubt that God can suspend the ordinary operation of nature (perform a miracle) but I don't think he can do anything incoherent.

Incoherence would be a limitation on the human observer. It's the same for the law of non-contradiction. These judgments like "incoherence" and "contradiction" are produced often with unknown, unrealized assumptions. Ideally, once those assumptions are realized then the one who is judging, evaluating, as "incoherent" or "contradiction" returns to a position of humility. That is a good thing. Do you agree? Humility is good if it is warranted?