'Unliftable Stone' Paradox - Logically flawed argument people make even today

[mikkel_the_dane]

Yeah I have, but can you answer my question, please. '....what are some examples of miracles that are logical, physical or otherwise?'

All I said originally is that 'I think that miracles are something that defies the logical world...'

I don't want to know about possibilities.....

Now to answer that, you have to explain how you understand the world, logic, miracles and knowldge? And then you might even have explain what you mean by the logical world.

 

[firedragon]

Yeah I have, but can you answer my question, please. '....what are some examples of miracles that are logical, physical or otherwise?'

No brother. It's not within the scope of this discussion. This is called an aunt sally. This thread is not about proving miracles are real and observable, and it's not for anyone to debate if that particular miracle happened or not.

Cheers.

 

[Madsaac]

To me, this seems to be the miracle.
The miracle of Malchus and the Roman Soldier's ear. Reattached, by contact of the Host, Jesus restored order to the ear of to the Roman Soldier.
To me the Divine Spirit is the Eternal Law that transforms and transfigures the Body through The Infinite Logical Power from within.

Now some commentators speculate that Jesus healed Malchus in order to spare Peter’s life—such a violent display of rebellion would have meant crucifixion. However, I like to think that Jesus was also considering this servant’s well-being. For didn’t He reach out to us while we were walking away from Him, and work a miracle in our lives, bringing healing and restoration?

Yes, peace to you as well.

Did this actually happen or is it a possibility?

 

[Madsaac]

Now to answer that, you have to explain how you understand the world, logic, miracles and knowldge? And then you might even have explain what you mean by the logical world.

Mate, this 'devils advocate' thing can get a little tiring. No I don't have to explain it because its obvious, really. Please tell me you understand the gist of a logical world.

No brother. It's not within the scope of this discussion. This is called an aunt sally. This thread is not about proving miracles are real and observable, and it's not for anyone to debate if that particular miracle happened or not.

Cheers.

Fair enough, something is possible as long as it's not self-contradictory, is this what the thread is about?

But your the one that put this in a post

1. Miracles
A common definition is that miracles are events that defy the laws of nature and are usually attributed to a divine or supernatural agency. They are extraordinary and not explainable by natural laws alone.

 

[firedragon]

Fair enough, something is possible as long as it's not self-contradictory, is this what the thread is about?

Not really. This thread is as explained in the OP, a logical impossibility is not a thing. It's an absurdity.

 

[Madsaac]

Not really. This thread is as explained in the OP, a logical impossibility is not a thing. It's an absurdity.

Yes, 'something is possible as long as it's not self-contradictory' may well be an absurdity. I already said in a previous post that 'omnipotence is fictitious'

So, like I mentioned before lets just find out what's simply logical or not fictitious? Miracles? Or God? Supernatural? Examples, please?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Mate, this 'devils advocate' thing can get a little tiring. No I don't have to explain it because its obvious, really. Please tell me you understand the gist of a logical world

In short, the second law of thought as per given time, space and sense for something.

 

[blü 2]

Omnipotence

Omnipotence means having the power to do anything that is logically possible. It's important to understand that this does not mean doing things that are self-contradictory or nonsensical.

No, omnipotence is the power to do anything at all. For example, it's logically impossible to bring the EM spectrum into being simply by uttering the biblical Hebrew word for "Light". It's logically impossible for an authentically dead person to come back to life. Yet apparently these tricks are no particular effort for the biblical God.

 

[muhammad_isa]

For example, it's logically impossible to bring the EM spectrum into being simply by uttering the biblical Hebrew word for "Light".

That is not what is meant by 'logically impossible' in this context.
We refer to the construct of statements, and not physical impossibilities.

 

[blü 2]

That is not what is meant by 'logically impossible' in this context.
We refer to the construct of statements, and not physical impossibilities.

My favorite example is God's inability to make a perfect copy of [him]self.

 

[firedragon]

Yes, 'something is possible as long as it's not self-contradictory' may well be an absurdity. I already said in a previous post that 'omnipotence is fictitious'

But that's irrelevant.

So, like I mentioned before lets just find out what's simply logical or not fictitious? Miracles? Or God? Supernatural? Examples, please?

You are trying your best to draw in a strawman. This is irrelevant. Address the OP.

 

[Madsaac]

You are trying your best to draw in a strawman. This is irrelevant. Address the OP.

I'm relatively new to philosophy, so to tell you the truth, I'm not sure what I can say, apart from the fact that omnipotence is the power to do anything at all. And the contradictory nature of this. What else is there to know?

Can you define omnipotence, please. And can you define an omnipotent being, please. I'm sure that will clear everything up. Thanks

And, as you say, I'm drawing in a 'strawman' but it seems more relevant to me.

 

[Madsaac]

In short, the second law of thought as per given time, space and sense for something.

I know I shouldn't ask this, but could you please elaborate on this, in simple terms, please.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I know I shouldn't ask this, but could you please elaborate on this, in simple terms, please.

Okay, now everything, but something at a given (limited) time and space and for a given sense.
E.g. this A is an A for a given (limited) time and space and for a given sense, but it is not the same as such for this A because you experince it a different time and space.
Now all As are similar but not the same as they all happen at different case of time and space, but are in the same sense of being As.

Yeah, you shouldn't have asked, because this says nothing about cause and effect, metaphysics/ontology or the induction problem. It only say that for a logic world something is something, or it is something else as similar and/or different.

 

[firedragon]

I'm relatively new to philosophy, so to tell you the truth, I'm not sure what I can say, apart from the fact that omnipotence is the power to do anything at all.

You are just repeating the same thing brother. Honestly there is no effort to even understand a thing logically.

A logical impossibility is not "a thing" for God to do. It's nothing.

Honestly, threads about these logical absurdities with atheist arguments have been the most pathetic and childish.

Brother. You seem like a good person honestly. Why don't you just put a few minutes to google "logical impossibility" and "analytical truth"?

That's it. Cheers.

 

[wellwisher]

I am not necessary disagreeing, but this is how you can draw a square circle:
View attachment 93333


Also the stone would be possible. Essentially it is the question about, can omnipotent person give up his omnipotence. Obviously it is possible and after that he would not be omnipotent anymore. And obviously no one is saying omnipotent is omnipotent after giving up it. Also, in the case of the stone, it could be done, and later, if omnipotent wants to lift it, he could just create more power to him so that he can lift it.

Maybe it is true that there are some logical impossibilities, but, if humans don't know how something is done, it is not necessary impossible for someone with greater abilities.

God also has omniscience, or is all knowing, which means he can solve paradox puzzles. Lifting implies upward against gravity. In zero gravity, there is no up or down, like we have with gravity. God can still move the stone, that he cannot lift, by shutting off gravity, so the term or action of lifting no longer applies, yet the result will be the same as lifting; move the stone in any direction even away from his head.

Lift; to raise to a higher position or level.

When this idea of a stone to heavy to life was first postulated, they did not know about gravity. God made gravity and knows how it works and can diffuse word games, with omni-science, since language is subjective. God is not stuck with any man made definition being framed to game the system. In the picture below, up, down and side to side are relative. Although the instruments are designed for gravity so when gravity returns one is able to orientate themself and not get hurt.

Although this can also be done with a lever.

Archimedes succinctly illustrated the law of the lever with the sentence attributed to him: "Give me a lever long enough and a fulcrum on which to place it, and I shall move the world."

It comes back to science and applied science; omni-science. Making a universe is applied science.

 

[muhammad_isa]

A logical impossibility is not "a thing" for God to do. It's nothing..

That's a good way of putting it.
Nobody, not even G-d, can lift something that is "too heavy to lift".
The clue is in "too heavy to lift" .

 

[firedragon]

That's a good way of putting it.
Nobody, not even G-d, can lift something that is "too heavy to lift".
The clue is in "too heavy to lift" .

The clue is in being all powerful "but not powerful". That's a contradiction. It's an absurdity.

It's like "I am married" but I am still a bach3lo4. He is either lying or mentally ill. It's "not a thing". It's not true. That fact is an analytical truth.

This simple thing is not understood by the daily evangelical atheist. I truly cannot understand why.

 

[Madsaac]

You are just repeating the same thing brother. Honestly there is no effort to even understand a thing logically.

A logical impossibility is not "a thing" for God to do. It's nothing.

Honestly, threads about these logical absurdities with atheist arguments have been the most pathetic and childish.

Brother. You seem like a good person honestly. Why don't you just put a few minutes to google "logical impossibility" and "analytical truth"?

That's it. Cheers.

I think I have said several times that something logically impossible is a contradiction and can't be done.

And I'm saying, the discussion is mute because something logically impossible is an absurdity.

And it is a something for God to do because theist think God is omnipotent, isn't he? So if god is omnipotent, he then can lift something that's too heavy, oh wait a second, no he can't = God is logically impossible

Or are you going to tell me that God can do 'anything that is possible according to his nature' or maybe he has become omnipotent only by accident

 

[McBell]

I think I have said several times that something logically impossible is a contradiction and can't be done.

And I'm saying, the discussion is mute because something logically impossible is an absurdity.

And it is a something for God to do because theist think God is omnipotent, isn't he? So if god is omnipotent, he then can lift something that's too heavy, oh wait a second, no he can't = God is logically impossible

Or are you going to tell me that God can do 'anything that is possible according to his nature' or maybe he has become omnipotent only by accident

Seems to me it all boils down to whether or not one believes that God is limited...

Theists put a great number of limitations on their omnipotent deities.