US prepares for threat of joint Chinese, Russian and North Korean nuclear strike

[We Never Know]

How could we counter with no electric or electronics? You‘re not thinking logically.

Because we won't wait until after it detonates to counter.

 

[metis]

Hey, the bottom line is that a nuclear war could ruin your whole day.

 

[Stevicus]

A nuke exploding in space or the upper atmosphere causes an electro magnetic pulse, the same thing as a coronal mass ejection we had a few weeks ago, only stronger. Unshielded electronics and even simple electrics will be fried. Overland electric lines will be gone. Given how much we depend on electrics, it will disrupt civilization for years or even decades.
Military installations are often "hardened" against EMPs, so, such a strike will not prevent retaliation.

I wonder if an EMP could affect submarines. The submarines are probably the most worrisome, since they're more difficult to track. They could be used as a first strike surprise weapon - or they could be held in reserve for the last strike.

 

[Heyo]

I wonder if an EMP could affect submarines. The submarines are probably the most worrisome, since they're more difficult to track. They could be used as a first strike surprise weapon - or they could be held in reserve for the last strike.

Water is notorious for blocking all kinds of radiation, and a submarine is a perfect Faraday cage.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

I wonder if an EMP could affect submarines. The submarines are probably the most worrisome, since they're more difficult to track. They could be used as a first strike surprise weapon - or they could be held in reserve for the last strike.

Because we won't wait until after it detonates to counter.

this thing seems to have something to do with a possible circumstance where we are the first to be hit, if you read the second paragraph: Boeing E-6 Mercury - Wikipedia

If it's EMP resistant, and I guess even if all the ground options were gone, it might still control the subs. If it can still transmit orders, I don't know. But I don't know if the subs have the more accurate nukes in them, maybe, maybe not. But if they don't got the accurate the nukes, that means they'd just retaliate by hitting broad regions

 

[Stevicus]

this thing seems to have something to do with a possible circumstance where we are the first to be hit, if you read the second paragraph: Boeing E-6 Mercury - Wikipedia

If it's EMP resistant, and I guess even if all the ground options were gone, it might still control the subs. If it can still transmit orders, I don't know. But I don't know if the subs have the more accurate nukes in them, maybe, maybe not. But if they don't got the accurate the nukes, that means they'd just retaliate by hitting broad regions

A Boeing aircraft. The President's plane and other command planes are also Boeings as well. With all the problems going on at Boeing lately, I hope they check these planes out thoroughly. Wouldn't want them to fail at a critical moment.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

No, they didn't say it was imminent, but it's certainly plausible. Those countries have been getting rather chummy lately, so in a worst-case scenario, it's possible.

Nukes were built as a deterrent, in the expectation (hope) that they would never be used. But they are most definitely operational and could be launched within a matter of minutes if the military is ordered to.

But the military will not be ordered to, is what I'm saying.
China and Russia might be dangerous, but they are not suicidal.
They have nothing to gain by starting a nuclear war and everything to lose. And losing everything is a near certainty.

Yes. Even areas which are spared the nuclear blasts and fallout will see significant environmental changes as well.

I'm not even talking about fallout. Let's even pretend as if there is no fallout.

I'm merely talking about the social unrest that follows due to famines, tech collapse, industry collapse, etc
The world is very interconnected. So interconnected that even small scale military conflicts have serious international consequences.
Russia invades Ukraine with conventional means. Result? Skyrocketing energy prices and fears of a global food crisis due to a drop in Russian and Ukrainian exports of grain. This alone already resulting in global economic difficulties, inflation, etc. And it easily could have resulted in millions of famine deaths also (and still can btw)

Imagine the result if just the US were nuked into oblivion without retaliation. The loss of industry, tech, exports, imports, capital, etc would be devastating. The upset of the balance of world powers would also be devastating and result in all-out war in plenty of places.

To think that a superpower like the US (or china, or russia) could be just wiped from the map and life would simply go on, is delusional. There would be immense ripple effects in a bazillion of ways, and only chaos and civil unrest would ensue. Societal collapse would be imminent and practically unavoidable.

And I don't think that present day civilization, with its mega reliance on tech, import, export and globalized economy, would be able to deal with that very well.

One hypothetical scenario that I've seen presented envisioned a Soviet first strike which was so immense, sudden, and thorough that it could conceivably strike the US so massively and quickly that we wouldn't be able to launch a counterstrike. That's how a nuclear war can be made winnable.

As explained above, it's still a losing situation. Russia today relies on the US far more then it cares to admit (and vice versa).
Having said that, there is no reason to think that a launch from Russia would go undetected in the US.

That was also the theory behind the SDI ("Star Wars") missile defense system that was proposed. We could launch an entire salvo of nuclear weapons and theoretically be safe from counterattack due to space-based weapons taking out the enemy's missiles. I remember the Soviets were against that idea, as they were also against anti-ballistic missiles which led to the ABM Treaty being signed. They thought that we should depend on each other's goodwill to not use such weapons, and that any kind of missile defense system would negate that goodwill.

As said above, this is just part of the international poker games.
Even without retaliation, or the option thereof, nobody would benefit from nuking a country into oblivion. Especially not if the nuked is a superpower.
The ripple effects would make us all lose.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

US prepares for threat of joint Chinese, Russian and North Korean nuclear strike - National Security News

The United States is making plans to counter the growing possibility of a joint Chinese, Russian and North Korean nuclear strike, according to a classified Pentagon document. In March, Joe Biden, the US president, secretly approved a significant change to America’s nuclear defence plan, The New...

nationalsecuritynews.com

So, they're considering the possibility of a joint nuclear strike involving China, Russia, and North Korea. It is significant that China has doubled their nuclear weapons stock in the past three years.

The prospects of nuclear war have been with us since the Cold War - and now we seem to be in Cold War II - The Sequel.

I recall a lot of people were pretty worried about nuclear war, especially back in 1983 when the movie "The Day After" was a big television event which seemingly everyone watched and talked about in the days following. There were huge marches and protests in Europe and the U.S. against the proliferation of nuclear weapons. I've known some people who even had nightmares about nuclear war. A lot of people built bomb shelters, stocked up on food and supplies, preparing for the absolute worst. There are still a fair number of preppers out there, determined to survive such a catastrophe.

We also used to have "Fallout Shelter" signs everywhere, where people could go in the event of a nuclear war. Are those going to make a comeback? Should there be public bomb shelters built? (From what I've read, most of those places designated as "Fallout Shelters" back in the day were actually poorly built and would have offered little protection from radiation or a nuclear blast.)

Could we survive a nuclear war? Could we possibly win a nuclear war? I remember running into a few people back in the day who thought that a nuclear war was winnable.

All a load of hyped nonsense probably by the military and arms industry to get larger hand outs.

Just because someone thinks Chinese might be increasing its stockpile of nuclear weapons.
No evidence of course just an estimate. A good example of the USA paranoia towards China.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

All a load of hyped nonsense probably by the military and arms industry to get larger hand outs.

Just because someone thinks Chinese might be increasing its stockpile of nuclear weapons.
No evidence of course just an estimate. A good example of the USA paranoia towards China.

It could very well be that the Chinese are increasing its stockpile of nukes. Especially in light of observing the behavior of Russia that actually makes a lot of sense. They have seen that NATO countries are very very careful in how to aid Ukraine in its fight and avoid direct confrontation like the plague.

Russian nukes are the only reason why they can "get away" somewhat with invading Ukraine and NOT having to face direct NATO retaliation.
China takes notes, while keeping their eyes on Taiwan.

Imagine China invading / attacking Taiwan in following situations:
- China having no nukes at all
- China having a couple 1000 nukes mounted on ICBMs

In which of these scenario's do you think, will they have to face the US military directly?
I think it's quite obvious: in the first scenario.
In the second, at best they'll face US weapons being held by the Taiwanese.

 

[Tomef]

US prepares for threat of joint Chinese, Russian and North Korean nuclear strike - National Security News

The United States is making plans to counter the growing possibility of a joint Chinese, Russian and North Korean nuclear strike, according to a classified Pentagon document. In March, Joe Biden, the US president, secretly approved a significant change to America’s nuclear defence plan, The New...

nationalsecuritynews.com

So, they're considering the possibility of a joint nuclear strike involving China, Russia, and North Korea. It is significant that China has doubled their nuclear weapons stock in the past three years.

The prospects of nuclear war have been with us since the Cold War - and now we seem to be in Cold War II - The Sequel.

I recall a lot of people were pretty worried about nuclear war, especially back in 1983 when the movie "The Day After" was a big television event which seemingly everyone watched and talked about in the days following. There were huge marches and protests in Europe and the U.S. against the proliferation of nuclear weapons. I've known some people who even had nightmares about nuclear war. A lot of people built bomb shelters, stocked up on food and supplies, preparing for the absolute worst. There are still a fair number of preppers out there, determined to survive such a catastrophe.

We also used to have "Fallout Shelter" signs everywhere, where people could go in the event of a nuclear war. Are those going to make a comeback? Should there be public bomb shelters built? (From what I've read, most of those places designated as "Fallout Shelters" back in the day were actually poorly built and would have offered little protection from radiation or a nuclear blast.)

Could we survive a nuclear war? Could we possibly win a nuclear war? I remember running into a few people back in the day who thought that a nuclear war was winnable.

I think there’s very little political will in China for a nuclear conflict. Unless Xi begins to see his retaining power contingent on some big move. Would the Kims risk losing their massive wealth and power? They’d probably be ripped apart by any survivors. I think it ultimately hinges on whether Putin would actually go that far, and if people lower down the chain would follow the orders. Something Putin might consider as a step back from nuclear strikes could escalate out of his control though, I suppose. A deepening of Cold War II seems a more likely scenario.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Nothing has changed, China Russia and the USA all have sufficient nukes to obliterate each other. Not to mention the nukes held by the UK France, Israel Pakistan and India and no doubt Iran's untested few.

Whenever the US military want more cash we have another nuclear scare.
There are already enough nukes to blow the earth out of orbit.
So it is all just whistling in the wind.

No country would want to use Nukes in Taiwan or do anything else to destroy their high tech industry. Any sort of invasion is unlikely. Taiwan only has value for their advanced manufacturing abilities.

 

[Yerda]

Could we survive a nuclear war? Could we possibly win a nuclear war? I remember running into a few people back in the day who thought that a nuclear war was winnable.

No-one wins a nuclear war between US and Russia. Civilisation collapse and probable human extinction would follow.

 

[Stevicus]

But the military will not be ordered to, is what I'm saying.
China and Russia might be dangerous, but they are not suicidal.
They have nothing to gain by starting a nuclear war and everything to lose. And losing everything is a near certainty.

I don't think anyone can say with any certainty what the military will or will not be ordered to do. Not today, and certainly not 5-10 years from now.

I would see nuclear war as a last resort. As you say, there's nothing to gain and everything to lose, but on the other hand, for countries with little left to lose, there can be a risk there.

I'm not even talking about fallout. Let's even pretend as if there is no fallout.

I'm merely talking about the social unrest that follows due to famines, tech collapse, industry collapse, etc
The world is very interconnected. So interconnected that even small scale military conflicts have serious international consequences.
Russia invades Ukraine with conventional means. Result? Skyrocketing energy prices and fears of a global food crisis due to a drop in Russian and Ukrainian exports of grain. This alone already resulting in global economic difficulties, inflation, etc. And it easily could have resulted in millions of famine deaths also (and still can btw)

Imagine the result if just the US were nuked into oblivion without retaliation. The loss of industry, tech, exports, imports, capital, etc would be devastating. The upset of the balance of world powers would also be devastating and result in all-out war in plenty of places.

To think that a superpower like the US (or china, or russia) could be just wiped from the map and life would simply go on, is delusional. There would be immense ripple effects in a bazillion of ways, and only chaos and civil unrest would ensue. Societal collapse would be imminent and practically unavoidable.

And I don't think that present day civilization, with its mega reliance on tech, import, export and globalized economy, would be able to deal with that very well.

Yes, and there's probably quite a few other ways civilization can fall apart. It's not unlike a house of cards, where if one key element is removed, the whole thing can come crashing down.

As explained above, it's still a losing situation. Russia today relies on the US far more then it cares to admit (and vice versa).
Having said that, there is no reason to think that a launch from Russia would go undetected in the US.

It would be detected, but it's a question of how much warning time they will get.

As said above, this is just part of the international poker games.
Even without retaliation, or the option thereof, nobody would benefit from nuking a country into oblivion. Especially not if the nuked is a superpower.
The ripple effects would make us all lose.

Yes, although many humans are quite stubborn and prideful to the point of irrationality and madness.

 

[Stevicus]

All a load of hyped nonsense probably by the military and arms industry to get larger hand outs.

Just because someone thinks Chinese might be increasing its stockpile of nuclear weapons.
No evidence of course just an estimate. A good example of the USA paranoia towards China.

Probably so, although that's been the general modus operandi for the Defense Department since the beginning of the Cold War. After the opening of the Soviet archives following the fall of the USSR, it was shown that the US military had wildly exaggerated Soviet military capabilities and used it to justify greater defense spending in the U.S.

The U.S. has been paranoid about a lot of countries.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

It would be detected, but it's a question of how much warning time they will get.

The systems in place to launch nukes require very very little time.

Yes, although many humans are quite stubborn and prideful to the point of irrationality and madness.

Not even Trump would be that far gone.

One could even wonder that when such a madman in power gives the order, if it would actually be carried out.

I'm just not buying it. Nukes today certainly serve as "leverage" to keep countries in check and careful. But that is there whole purpose. I don't think anyone in power actually expects to use them, ever.

I think there's more chance of some type of terrorist group setting of a single tactical nuke or "dirty bomb" then for a country to order an all-out strike.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Probably so, although that's been the general modus operandi for the Defense Department since the beginning of the Cold War. After the opening of the Soviet archives following the fall of the USSR, it was shown that the US military had wildly exaggerated Soviet military capabilities and used it to justify greater defense spending in the U.S.

The U.S. has been paranoid about a lot of countries.

Perhaps, but at the same time...

Better to overestimate your enemies then it is to underestimate them.

 

[Stevicus]

I think there’s very little political will in China for a nuclear conflict. Unless Xi begins to see his retaining power contingent on some big move. Would the Kims risk losing their massive wealth and power? They’d probably be ripped apart by any survivors. I think it ultimately hinges on whether Putin would actually go that far, and if people lower down the chain would follow the orders. Something Putin might consider as a step back from nuclear strikes could escalate out of his control though, I suppose. A deepening of Cold War II seems a more likely scenario.

The only way I could see it happening is if they were cornered in such a way that they had "nothing left to lose."

 

[Kathryn]

Perhaps, but at the same time...

Better to overestimate your enemies then it is to underestimate them.

I agree but TRUE STORY TIME:

A few months after the fall of the Soviet Union, my former husband and I went across the Fulda Gap and into what had been Eastern Germany. Actually we were looking for Buchenwald Concentration Camp but it was very foggy and so apparently we turned left too soon, but at first we thought surely we were seeing something from what was then about forty five years earlier. I mean we saw guard houses and walls with barb wire on them and we thought "This must be Buchenwald" but it was not - it was a present day Soviet camp! You know what I thought? I thought to myself "This is what we were afraid of for so long?"

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I agree but TRUE STORY TIME:

A few months after the fall of the Soviet Union, my former husband and I went across the Fulda Gap and into what had been Eastern Germany. Actually we were looking for Buchenwald Concentration Camp but it was very foggy and so apparently we turned left too soon, but at first we thought surely we were seeing something from what was then about forty five years earlier. I mean we saw guard houses and walls with barb wire on them and we thought "This must be Buchenwald" but it was not - it was a present day Soviet camp! You know what I thought? I thought to myself "This is what we were afraid of for so long?"

Off course.

During the cold war, I don't think anyone in the west were afraid of a "mighty soviet army". People were afraid from nukes.
We all knew that life in those communist hellholes was just that: hell.

I was only 5 and even I thought that was pretty apparent.
The pictures we saw from soviet cities where like all grey-ish buildings that looked really crappy. Their cars looked unimaginative, ugly and crappy as well. Compared to how life looked like at "our" side of the wall... it was pretty clear where you'ld want to grow up.

It was also very unsurprising to see that when the wall fell, vast majority of movement was from east to west and not the other way round.

Nobody in western europe had any desire to go and move to hungary, tjechoslovakia or whatever other soviet hellhole at the other side of the wall.
The idea of moving the other side of the wall was very one-directional..............

As far as I remember, it was very much common knowledge how "crappy" everything was in the east. Including their military.
The scare and fear was all about the nukes.

 

[Stevicus]

The systems in place to launch nukes require very very little time.

Theoretically, yes. But ultimately, the President has to authorize a nuclear launch, so it also depends on the President's nerve and decision-making capabilities.

If someone did have designs on launching a first strike against us, I don't think it would begin with an all-out salvo of missiles. They could send in operatives and covert teams to commit acts of sabotage of key points of communication and other strategic targets which may be vulnerable on the ground.

Not even Trump would be that far gone.

One could even wonder that when such a madman in power gives the order, if it would actually be carried out.

I'm just not buying it. Nukes today certainly serve as "leverage" to keep countries in check and careful. But that is there whole purpose. I don't think anyone in power actually expects to use them, ever.

I think there's more chance of some type of terrorist group setting of a single tactical nuke or "dirty bomb" then for a country to order an all-out strike.

The typical Cold War scenario is that it would invariably start off small and then escalate from there. For example, if Soviet Bloc forces poured into West Germany, it's possible that battlefield commanders could launch nuclear artillery on the advancing Soviet troops to prevent being overwhelmed by numbers. The Soviets could then open up with their own nuclear artillery, or up the ante and start nuking NATO bases, possibly cities.

We're not really imagining a scenario where some national leader just wakes up one morning and decides, "Hey, I think I'm going to nuke the world today." (Although Reagan used to joke about that sort of thing.)

What if Putin launches a nuclear weapon on Kyiv and/or other Ukrainian cities, just to end it once and for all? What should the West do in that scenario? If no NATO cities or territories are struck and we just decide to let it pass, then our own territory would not be at risk. We could still survive, and so could the world. But if we decide to respond in kind with nuclear strikes against Moscow or other targets (in retaliation on behalf of Ukraine), then they will send nukes against us, and that will be that.