Vaccination and Religious Beliefs

[SkepticThinker]

Interesting that the author of the alternative medicine site cites his own site as a source...

Ironic the author has the gull to call any one else a quack.

Yeah, no kidding, right!??

 

[SkepticThinker]

The problem is that your standards are so high you cannot see the truth, hello up there lol.

Something from the CDC would be fine. Thanks.

 

[SkepticThinker]

No, I don't. You keep saying "tell that to parents of autistic children," but I myself am autistic.
You are the one who is approaching autism as if it is an inherent problem, even though many autistic people don't want it any other way. Actually, those with Asperger's are known for having many desirable characteristics, being more fair, and having a very strong sense of right and wrong. You use autism like it is automatically a bad thing. Those with low-functioning autism may have it a lot harder than those with high-functioning, but with many cases, provided early intervention happens and there is help and support, even those with low-functioning autism can work towards being high-functioning.

And you still haven't addressed the fact doctors can typically diagnose autism before a child is old enough for the vaccines. Myself, I displayed several symptoms before I was old enough, such as hand-flapping and difficulties in motor-development.

That will never be addressed, as far as I can tell.

If the CDC has made this apology, then why can you not provide us with an official statement from the CDC? It's not having standards that are too high, it's expecting to hear it straight from the source.

That's all I'm asking for. Primary sources, please. Shouldn't be that hard if it's all over the internet.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Just because you are autistic, doesn't mean you know all about it, I'm schizophrenic and I know I don't know everything about it,na, that wont work with me, Lisa.

Well it appears you know even less about it, if you actually believe vaccines are the cause of it.
Maybe just try taking in some information from somebody who knows what they're talking about.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

As promised, a list of the strengths typically possessed by aspies, and what it would look like if Asperger's was approached through it's strengths rather than weaknesses.
Tony Attwood - Author of The Complete Guide to Asperger's Syndrome

Figure 1: Discovery criteria for aspie by Attwood and Gray
A. A qualitative advantage in social interaction, as manifested by a majority of the following:

1. peer relationships characterized by absolute loyalty and impeccable dependability
2. free of sexist, "age-ist", or culturalist biases; ability to regard others at "face value"
3. speaking one’s mind irrespective of social context or adherence to personal beliefs
4. ability to pursue personal theory or perspective despite conflicting evidence
5. seeking an audience or friends capable of: enthusiasm for unique interests and topics;
6. consideration of details; spending time discussing a topic that may not be of primary interest
7. listening without continual judgement or assumption
8. interested primarily in significant contributions to conversation; preferring to avoid ‘ritualistic small talk’ or socially trivial statements and superficial conversation.
9. seeking sincere, positive, genuine friends with an unassuming sense of humour

B. Fluent in "Aspergerese", a social language characterized by at least three of the following:

1. a determination to seek the truth
2. conversation free of hidden meaning or agenda
3. advanced vocabulary and interest in words
4. fascination with word-based humour, such as puns
5. advanced use of pictorial metaphor

C. Cognitive skills characterized by at least four of the following:

1. strong preference for detail over gestalt
2. original, often unique perspective in problem solving
3. exceptional memory and/or recall of details often forgotten or disregarded by others, for example: names, dates, schedules, routines
4. avid perseverance in gathering and cataloguing information on a topic of interest
5. persistence of thought
6. encyclopaedic or ‘CD ROM’ knowledge of one or more topics
7. knowledge of routines and a focused desire to maintain order and accuracy
8. clarity of values/decision making unaltered by political or financial factors

D. Additional possible features:

1. acute sensitivity to specific sensory experiences and stimuli, for example: hearing, touch, vision, and/or smell
2. strength in individual sports and games, particularly those involving
3. endurance or visual accuracy, including rowing, swimming, bowling, chess
4. “social unsung hero” with trusting optimism: frequent victim of social
5. weaknesses of others, while steadfast in the belief of the possibility of genuine friendship
6. increased probability over general population of attending university after high school
7. often take care of others outside the range of typical development

These were developed by two people who work extensively with individuals of the autistic-spectrum. Here, they are making the case that Asperger's Syndrom, a form of high-functioning autism, shouldn't even really be considered a disorder or a syndrome, and that rather than emphasis the weaknesses of social limitations the focus should be on the tremendous strengths of an aspie.
Again, why is it even really that big of a concern that vaccines may cause this, even though aspies tend to have highly-valued strengths that just come naturally?

 

[SkepticThinker]

You are wrong and I feel that you know that, its just your pride that keeps you in the darkness.

If he's so wrong you should have no problem countering his points. Something you have yet to do with any points made on this thread.

 

[InChrist]

Now, can anyone post just one single credible source that supports the hypothesis that vaccines cause autism?

Here are a few:

86 Research Papers Supporting the Vaccine/Autism Link

Published by Ginger Taylor

Media reports have claimed that there is no scientific evidence supporting the link between vaccines and autism. Here we provide...
*The list has been updated and now contains 99 citations.


Along with the above there is evidence that aluminum which accumulates in the brain is connected with Alzheimer's. Autism and Alzheimer's have many similarities and both neurological diseases also have shockingly similar signs to those of aluminum toxicity. Aluminum is an adjuvant in vaccines which may even be more dangerous than the preservative Thimerosal mercury, which has been reduced in some childhood vaccines, but no reduction has taken place in the Flu, Men C, A, and Tetanus. Mercury and aluminum are known neurotoxins. Both autism and Alzheimer's have become epidemic in this country while at the same time the number of mandated childhood vaccines/boosters is about 50 by school age and the flu shots are pushed on seniors every year.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/10/141013090451.htm

 

[psychoslice]

Well it appears you know even less about it, if you actually believe vaccines are the cause of it.
Maybe just try taking in some information from somebody who knows what they're talking about.

How do you know that ?.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

86 Research Papers Supporting the Vaccine/Autism Link

Published by Ginger Taylor

She is not a doctor.

Autism and Alzheimer's have many similarities and both neurological diseases also have shockingly similar signs to those of aluminum toxicity.

Alzheimer's and austism are not even closely related.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/10/141013090451.htm

4
That link does not even mention vaccines or autism. And just about any hookah smoker knows that aluminum can be harmful.

 

[psychoslice]

Being a doctor doesn't automatically mean you know everything about vaccines, or even many other area's in medicine, they only know what they suppose to know, and what their journal tells them.

 

[philbo]

*The list has been updated and now contains 99 citations.

.and how many ever get removed when shown to be irrelevant, inappropriate or inaccurate? A quick scan makes me suspect the answer is zero.

The whole gish gallop of throwing in a large number of articles claiming something which on inspection shows to be nothing of the kind tactic is typical of the antivaccine movement: how many of these citations would need debunking before you agree the list is meaningless?

Take the first one, for example: given that there are *no* childhood vaccines containing thiomersal, why do you think it is relevant? It's the sort of article which caused the change in policy to remove thiomersal from vaccines: the evidence wasn't strong, but enough of a worry to change vaccine formulation. And, you know what? It hasn't changed the antivax rhetoric at all (hell, they're still claiming mercury is causing the problems, when it isn't even there)

Similarly any study which goes for a "correlation therefore causation" for autism can safely be discounted, as the bigger the studies get (and later ones are orders of magnitude bigger than anything from the 90s and early 00s), the more clearly they show that there is no link between MMR and autism.

I've just done a not-quite-so-quick scan, and there are a lot of pointless "well, it sounds like it might be harmful, but if you read the abstract they're saying no evidence of harm" articles.

Or as Jay-Z might have said:
You had your vaccinations, I feel good for you, son
There were 99 citations, mainly sh1t and dumb

She is not a doctor.

To be fair, whether the author is a doctor doesn't really matter; however, to have as the top article one that isn't relevant, and a quick scan of the rest shows that there has been no qualitty control on what is included: individual anecdotes don't provide proof of anything, the author clearly doesn't understand that quantity is no guarantee of quality. The really sad thing is looking at the comments, lots of other people don't understand that, either. I wouldn't mind betting of them have read or checked *any* of the articles quoted, though. Just like InChrist

 

[philbo]

For any of the "correlation = causation, ooh, look it's signifiant" articles, I'd just like to leave this here: xkcd: Significant

 

[InChrist]

She is not a doctor.

Alzheimer's and austism are not even closely related.

That link does not even mention vaccines or autism. And just about any hookah smoker knows that aluminum can be harmful.

So are you saying that unless someone is a doctor they cannot compile accurate information?

Azlheinmr's and autism are both neurological diseases, both affect the brain, and both have been shown to be the result of some form of attack upon the immune system. Read the linked article with referenced studies below:

"Immune cells that reside in the brain, called microglia, defend the brain against biological threats and injury. Emerging evidence indicates that microglia are altered in some individuals with autism, raising questions about their potential role in brain development.


When challenged, these chameleon-like cells transform from a resting to an activated, or macrophage-like, state and are rapidly recruited to sites of damage. There, they engulf debris as well as unwanted and dying cells. At the same time, they contribute to brain inflammation by releasing immune proteins called cytokines and other proteins that may be toxic to the brain1, 2.


Microglia activation is a hallmark of Alzheimer ’s disease and other adult-onset neurodegenerative diseases. However, several postmortem studies have revealed that activated microglia are also elevated in the brains of young individuals with autism, despite the absence of neurodegeneration or other obvious harm to the brain3."
Brain's immune cells show intriguing links to autism —


The link om my previous post did not need to mention vaccines or autism, the reality is that your common sense should be able to make the connection. You have acknowledged "anyone" knows aluminum is dangerous. Aluminum is in vaccines, therefore injecting aluminum-containing vaccines directly into one;s body is bound to have damaging health effects. If everyone knows aluminum is a toxic substance why is it in vaccines? Why are so many people willing to be injected with it or have their children injected, not once, but multiple times?

 

[InChrist]

.


Take the first one, for example: given that there are *no* childhood vaccines containing thiomersal, why do you think it is relevant?

Actually, not all childhood vaccines have had the thimerosal mercury removed. Some still have traces, which is still toxic in my opinion and almost all contain aluminum. The influenza vaccines still contains thimerosal and is routinely given to toddlers and pregnant women.

Vaccine Ingredients and Manufacturer Information - Vaccines - ProCon.org

 

[InChrist]

Just another link for anyone interested in reading a case report:

Developmental Regression and Mitochondrial Dysfunction in a Child With Autism


"Within 48 hours after immunizations to diphtheria, tetanus, and pertussis; Haemophilus influenzae B; measles, mumps, and rubella; polio; and varicella (Varivax), the patient developed a fever to 38.9°C, inconsolable crying, irritability, and lethargy and refused to walk. Four days later, the patient was waking up multiple times in the night, having episodes of opistho-tonus, and could no longer normally climb stairs. Instead, she crawled up and down the stairs. Low-grade intermittent fever was noted for the next 12 days. Ten days following immunization, the patient developed a generalized erythematous macular rash beginning in the abdomen. The patient’s pediatrician diagnosed this as due to varicella vaccination. For 3 months, the patient was irritable and increasingly less responsive verbally, after which the patient’s family noted clear autistic behaviors, such as spinning, gaze avoidance, disrupted sleep/wake cycle, and perseveration on specific television programs. All expressive language was lost by 22 months. The patient continued to have chronic yellow watery diarrhea intermittently for 6 months, which was evaluated with negative testing for Clostridium difficile, ova/parasites, and culture. Four months later, an evaluation with the Infant and Toddlers Early Intervention program for possible autism was initiated. Along with the regression, her appetite remained poor for 6 months and her body weight did not increase. This resulted in a decline on a standard growth chart for weight from the 97th to the 75th percentile."
Developmental Regression and Mitochondrial Dysfunction in a Child With Autism

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Being a doctor doesn't automatically mean you know everything about vaccines, or even many other area's in medicine, they only know what they suppose to know, and what their journal tells them.

This is true. But when you can cite a doctor (which I have done) it holds far greater merit than someone who has no professional credentials.

To be fair, whether the author is a doctor doesn't really matter;

Doctors are professionals in the health field. It's like comparing an astrophysicist to someone who reads what they can find. Both can produce accurate information, but nevertheless the astrophysicist has access to resources and materials the other person does not, a more thorough and extensive schooling and training, and thus they are a source of a higher prestige.

Azlheinmr's and autism are both neurological diseases, both affect the brain, and both have been shown to be the result of some form of attack upon the immune system. Read the linked article with referenced studies below:

Alzheimer's is a form of dementia. Autism is not.

You have acknowledged "anyone" knows aluminum is dangerous.

I said it may be dangerous, which in large amounts many things, including water, are dangerous and have the potential to be deadly.

Developmental Regression and Mitochondrial Dysfunction in a Child With Autism

This is a credible source. But, if you read through it, this case study focuses on the patients other abnormalities, and it even states she is the first known patient with such a condition. It states her peditrician diagnoses it as a side-effect of the Varivax vaccination, but the article itself does not focus on this. The discussion part does not even bring it up, but it brings up other interesting points:
To our knowledge, this is the first description of an autistic child with mitochondrial dysfunction, growth failure, and abnormal muscle histopathology without seizures or a defined chromosomal abnormality.
It is unclear whether mitochondrial dysfunction results from a primary genetic abnormality, atypical development of essential metabolic pathways, or secondary inhibition of oxidative phosphorylation by other factors.
If such dysfunction is present at the time of infections and immunizations in young children, the added oxidative stresses from immune activation on cellular energy metabolism are likely to be especially critical for the central nervous system, which is highly dependent on mitochondrial function. Young children who have dysfunctional cellular energy metabolism therefore might be more prone to undergo autistic regression between 18 and 30 months of age if they also have infections or immunizations at the same time.
It's saying that maybe if certain conditions are met, then maybe these factors that are present might trigger the response that caused autism in this girl. No where does it suggest or imply this case study applies to the general population, but rather it states there are many unknowns in this case.

 

[philbo]

Actually, not all childhood vaccines have had the thimerosal mercury removed. Some still have traces, which is still toxic in my opinion and almost all contain aluminum. The influenza vaccines still contains thimerosal and is routinely given to toddlers and pregnant women.

Vaccine Ingredients and Manufacturer Information - Vaccines - ProCon.org

Given that there are a lot of influenza vaccines which don't contain thiomersal, and it has been recommended to have been removed from childhood vaccines for over a decade, do you have any evidence to show that those that do contain mercury are used as vaccines for infants?

But before I get distracted, how many of those articles referenced would I need to debunk before you see the list for what it is, i.e. something to scare with not something used to educate? Ten? Twenty? Tell you what, why don't you actually read all those 99 citations, pick the most relevant ten and I'll tell you why they don't mean what Ginger Taylor claims they mean. But.. if I succeed in explaining why the articles you choose are not "research papers supporting the vaccine autism link", you agree to admit that there is no evidence for vaccines causing autism, and do what a person with integrity would and change your opinion based on evidence.

Doctors are professionals in the health field. It's like comparing an astrophysicist to someone who reads what they can find. Both can produce accurate information, but nevertheless the astrophysicist has access to resources and materials the other person does not, a more thorough and extensive schooling and training, and thus they are a source of a higher prestige.

I know a lot of people who aren't doctors, but spend most of their lives working with research papers (quite a few working towards doctorates), and are really rather good at analysing what other people's results mean. There are also some ridiculous quacks and charlatans who are qualified doctors. You have a point that a doctor probably would have had a better understanding of their subject matter and wouldn't have included a lot of those articles in the first place; one would hope they'd also have had the honesty to remove ones which show correlation when larger studies show that correlation vanishing.

This is a credible source. But, if you read through it, this case study focuses on the patients other abnormalities, and it even states she is the first known patient with such a condition. It states her peditrician diagnoses it as a side-effect of the Varivax vaccination, but the article itself does not focus on this. The discussion part does not even bring it up, but it brings up other interesting points:
To our knowledge, this is the first description of an autistic child with mitochondrial dysfunction, growth failure, and abnormal muscle histopathology without seizures or a defined chromosomal abnormality.
It is unclear whether mitochondrial dysfunction results from a primary genetic abnormality, atypical development of essential metabolic pathways, or secondary inhibition of oxidative phosphorylation by other factors.
If such dysfunction is present at the time of infections and immunizations in young children, the added oxidative stresses from immune activation on cellular energy metabolism are likely to be especially critical for the central nervous system, which is highly dependent on mitochondrial function. Young children who have dysfunctional cellular energy metabolism therefore might be more prone to undergo autistic regression between 18 and 30 months of age if they also have infections or immunizations at the same time.
It's saying that maybe if certain conditions are met, then maybe these factors that are present might trigger the response that caused autism in this girl. No where does it suggest or imply this case study applies to the general population, but rather it states there are many unknowns in this case.

InChrist - please read and make sure you understand the above. Then go back and see the antivax poster you copy/pasted it from and see how many others of their scare stories are not what they are claimed.

..and even if they were.. how many graphic examples of children, say, dying from whooping cough because they didn't get a vaccination would you need to counter each case study? Because hundreds or even thousands of times as many children were harmed by disease than have ever been harmed by vaccines. Which is why individual case studies, even if vaccine damage can be shown (remember, nobody here is arguing that vaccines are completely risk-free, just that they are orders of magnitude safer than the diseases they protect against) do not prove your point.

 

[InChrist]

Alzheimer's is a form of dementia. Autism is not.

I didn't say Alzheimer's was a form of dementia, I said this; "Alzheimer's and autism are both neurological diseases, both affect the brain, and both have been shown to be the result of some form of attack upon the immune system."

I said it may be dangerous, which in large amounts many things, including water, are dangerous and have the potential to be deadly.

So because anything in large amounts can be dangerous that makes it okay to inject known toxins into the body? Although, it is claimed that such toxins as aluminum are very small in a single vaccine the issue arises that multiple vaccines are given together and vaccines/ boosters are given repeatedly causing aluminum accumulation in the body.

This is a credible source. But, if you read through it, this case study focuses on the patients other abnormalities, and it even states she is the first known patient with such a condition. It states her peditrician diagnoses it as a side-effect of the Varivax vaccination, but the article itself does not focus on this.

Maybe the article should focus on the side-effect aspect. I would like to highlight this from the study: "Within 48 hours after immunizations to diphtheria, tetanus, and pertussis; Haemophilus influenza B; measles, mumps, rubella; polio; and varicella (Varivax ), he patient developed ..."
This many vaccines injected all at once means a lot of aluminum all at once, along with the collective mix of other toxins in that number of vaccines. Although the pediatrician states her reaction was to the Varivax, it does not say how or why that was the conclusion. I am not sure what you mean by saying the study focuses on "other abnormalities". It does state that she was developing normally, until after she had the above round of vaccinations and then experienced numerous problems and developmental issues.

It's saying that maybe if certain conditions are met, then maybe these factors that are present might trigger the response that caused autism in this girl. No where does it suggest or imply this case study applies to the general population, but rather it states there are many unknowns in this case.

I don't think it is as ambiguous or implying as many unknowns as you are making it out to. But, if this is what it is saying, then maybe it would be a good idea, since in this case the child developed autism only after so many vaccine injections which could have been a trigger of the problem(s), for more in-depth studies to be done to look into this as it may apply to the general population which has seen such a dramatic increase of autism.

 

[InChrist]

Given that there are a lot of influenza vaccines which don't contain thiomersal, and it has been recommended to have been removed from childhood vaccines for over a decade, do you have any evidence to show that those that do contain mercury are used as vaccines for infants?

But before I get distracted, how many of those articles referenced would I need to debunk before you see the list for what it is, i.e. something to scare with not something used to educate? Ten? Twenty? Tell you what, why don't you actually read all those 99 citations, pick the most relevant ten and I'll tell you why they don't mean what Ginger Taylor claims they mean. But.. if I succeed in explaining why the articles you choose are not "research papers supporting the vaccine autism link", you agree to admit that there is no evidence for vaccines causing autism, and do what a person with integrity would and change your opinion based on evidence.
.

InChrist - please read and make sure you understand the above. Then go back and see the antivax poster you copy/pasted it from and see how many others of their scare stories are not what they are claimed.

..and even if they were.. how many graphic examples of children, say, dying from whooping cough because they didn't get a vaccination would you need to counter each case study? Because hundreds or even thousands of times as many children were harmed by disease than have ever been harmed by vaccines. Which is why individual case studies, even if vaccine damage can be shown (remember, nobody here is arguing that vaccines are completely risk-free, just that they are orders of magnitude safer than the diseases they protect against) do not prove your point.

I have to go out so don't have time to respond to this at the moment, but will try to in a day or so. BTW, I linked and copied directly from the NIH website, not an anti/vax poster.

 

[philbo]

I have to go out so don't have time to respond to this at the moment, but will try to in a day or so. BTW, I linked and copied directly from the NIH website, not an anti/vax poster.

There's no hurry.. And I know what you linked to, I was referring to where you picked up the link.. unless you're in the habit of browsing the National Institutes of Health journal for nearly ten-year-old studies that have minimal relevance to the point you're trying to make.