Vaccination and Religious Beliefs

[SomeRandom]

Yea I do come over like that, and I really don't have a belief in anything, everything is changing every day, what I believe today may change tomorrow, and who knows I might change my mind about vaccines one day, I am not arrogant, but if you see that then that's for you to believe, again it doesn't bother me..........now tell me the truth, don't you just want to shake the crap out of me ? lol.

Well, at least you acknowledge it.

As for shaking you. Well no, I'm usually a lot more mellow than I have been in this discussion thread. But my dad had cancer and almost died needlessly because someone didn't vaccinate their kid and he came into contact with that kid in the Hospital waiting room. And before you ask, this was more or less confirmed by the (then) multiple doctors that he was visiting.
So I guess I tend to have more emotional investment in this so called "Vaccine debate." As such my usually large amount of patience tends to wear thin far more quickly than normal.

 

[psychoslice]

Well, at least you acknowledge it.

As for shaking you. Well no, I'm usually a lot more mellow than I have been in this discussion thread. But my dad had cancer and almost died needlessly because someone didn't vaccinate their kid and he came into contact with that kid in the Hospital waiting room. And before you ask, this was more or less confirmed by the (then) multiple doctors that he was visiting.
So I guess I tend to have more emotional investment in this so called "Vaccine debate." As such my usually large amount of patience tends to wear thin far more quickly than normal.

Yea I understand, I had a bad reaction with a vaccine when I was young, and I also know someone who had a very healthy child, but just after the vaccines he went strange and was diagnosed with autism. So our emotions can affect our way of reasoning, but still everyone still should be free to do what they want with their own bodies when it comes to vaccines.

 

[SomeRandom]

Yea I understand, I had a bad reaction with a vaccine when I was young, and I also know someone who had a very healthy child, but just after the vaccines he went strange and was diagnosed with autism. So our emotions can affect our way of reasoning, but still everyone still should be free to do what they want with their own bodies when it comes to vaccines.

Whilst I agree that people can be ruled by emotions, as it were, I don't know if I necessarily agree with the last statement. I mean I won't argue to make it legal to have someone be forced to take a vaccine. But that statement implies that one's decision not to get a vaccine only affects them. It doesn't. One can abstain from any medical procedure, even if it's lifesaving. I totally agree with that. But not vaccinating is different. It weakens the herd immunity that some people in society literally rely on to survive. Not vaccinating undermines years of advancements and allows the whole of the community to be susceptible to dying from completely preventable diseases.

The equation is not as some would imply allowing a small risk to not kill one child. It's actually, should we allow the potential for something to kill millions of kids, which is actually easily avoidable in this day and age all because the choice to vaccinate MIGHT cause one child to die or even become autistic (again, there's that arguably insulting insinuation that autism is more heartbreaking than a child dying from diphtheria. Just....NO.) Again, not saying that a child should be just collateral damage for the greater good, but that's literally the risk in most if not all medical applications that save thousands of lives. And again the way a Vaccine works is unique in medicine, which is why there's slightly different shall we say "rules" when discussing it's overall application to mankind than say a person's choice not to get a life saving blood transfusion.

Now, far be it from me to dictate another person's medical decision, but the "choice" not to vaccinate carries with it far more sinister implications than one refusing cancer treatment in favor of dying on their own terms. And even that particular choice does affect one's relatives and friends.

 

[psychoslice]

Whilst I agree that people can be ruled by emotions, as it were, I don't know if I necessarily agree with the last statement. I mean I won't argue to make it legal to have someone be forced to take a vaccine. But that statement implies that one's decision not to get a vaccine only affects them. It doesn't. One can abstain from any medical procedure, even if it's lifesaving. I totally agree with that. But not vaccinating weakens the herd immunity that some people in society literally rely on to survive. Not vaccinating undermines years of advancements and allows the whole of the community to be susceptible to dying from completely preventable diseases.

The equation is not as some would imply allowing a small risk to not kill one child. It's actually, should we abstain from the potential to kill millions of kids from something that can be easily avoided in this day and age all because the choice to vaccinate MIGHT cause one child to die or even become autistic (again, there's that arguably insulting insinuation that autism is more heartbreaking than a child dying from diphtheria. Just....NO.) Again, not saying that a child should be just collateral damage for the greater good, but that's literally the risk in most if not all medical applications that save thousands of lives.

The way a Vaccine works is unique in medicine, which is why there's slightly different shall we say "rules" when discussing it's overall application to mankind than say a person's choice not to get a life saving blood transfusion.

Now, far be it from me to dictate another person's medical decision, but the "choice" not to vaccinate carries with it far more sinister implications than one refusing cancer treatment in favor of dying on their own terms. And even that particular choice does affect one's relatives and friends.

Well I don't think that's the full story, but I don't really want to go around in circles, again I believe there are lies on the numbers that die or are affected by vaccines, if something happen to a child, lets say about 6 months latter after the vaccines, then that wouldn't be because of the vaccine, well that how they look at it, which to me is ridiculers.

 

[McBell]

Na, of course they don't want to be known, but that doesn't mean that its not happening, do you really believe that all the vaccines are perfect and could never hurt anyone ?.

Do you still claim that vaccines are akin to genocide?

 

[psychoslice]

Do you still claim that vaccines are akin to genocide?

No, but without fully knowing that is what is going to happen if they keep producing more and more of these vaccines.

 

[SomeRandom]

Well I don't think that's the full story, but I don't really want to go around in circles, again I believe there are lies on the numbers that die or are affected by vaccines, if something happen to a child, lets say about 6 months latter after the vaccines, then that wouldn't be because of the vaccine, well that how they look at it, which to me is ridiculers.

No, that literally is the full story. I'm sorry if you choose not to believe actual observations made by people in multiple countries and in multiple medical disciplines. That's your decision, fine.

People who catch say Polio will either be crippled or DIE. That's fact. If you'd like you can talk to the people from the 40s and 50s who literally watched thousands of kids either die/be crippled from Polio or die in the Iron Lung you're more than welcome to. Of course, if you were to do that, I'd suggest not talking about the supposed "horrors" or "lies" of vaccines as I think that may **** off a lot of those people who witnessed first hand what a vaccine did for Polio.
(Fun fact. When asked who owns the patent, something that when used could have made Jonas Salk, the guy who developed the Polio Vaccine millions. He replied that the people own it and that the patent doesn't exist. He then compares such an idea to putting a patent on the sun. As he apparently believed such treatment and ideas be open to the population and not just those who could afford it. Jonas Salk - Wikiquote)
Now, the Polio Vaccine is one such vaccine constantly under review. Because well, that's kind of what Scientists tend to do.

It's only ridiculous to you because as a layman much like me, you're not as well versed in causal links and it's relationship (as well as the differences between) correlation. Which is fine, as laymen we are not asked to know about that stuff. People in Science are, because that's basically part of their job.
For example, if I were to eat roast chicken one day and then go to hospital due to laryngitis, I would automatically associate roast chicken with the illness. That's because I'm human and a layman at that and that's pretty much how the brain tends to work. But if a Doctor took a look at my symptoms they would not reach the same conclusion as I did. Because they know such a link is merely correlation and does not automatically mean a causal factor. They know what causes laryngitis already, anyway. Even if they didn't, they would not as you imply merely brush it aside as insignificant. They would first investigate it's potential to be a causal link and when they find out it has none, then they would dismiss it as a potential cause.

In essence, they approach correlation slightly differently than laymen. They don't immediately assume a correlation is a causal link. But either way they would still be able to find a causal link to something (if it indeed WAS CAUSAL) no matter how much time had passed between the two actions.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Well I don't think that's the full story, but I don't really want to go around in circles, again I believe there are lies on the numbers that die or are affected by vaccines, if something happen to a child, lets say about 6 months latter after the vaccines, then that wouldn't be because of the vaccine, well that how they look at it, which to me is ridiculers.

That is not how they look at it. Even a year later, if the vaccines were causing something, they would find it. They can diagnose things that happen in middle-life and later that are the results of things that happened during childhood.

 

[psychoslice]

That is not how they look at it. Even a year later, if the vaccines were causing something, they would find it. They can diagnose things that happen in middle-life and later that are the results of things that happened during childhood.

I wish that was true.

 

[SomeRandom]

I wish that was true.

Because doctors/scientists don't find causal links to things ever? If that were true, they wouldn't ask for family history of their patents! Nor bother conducting medical exams. Hell they wouldn't even bother conversing with their patients. Nor conduct studies of anything.

I know over diagnosing and relying on certain medications is a problem in a few fields of medical science, but that doesn't automatically mean that all doctors in all fields are devoid of properly analyzing a correlation and a causal link.

Just because they won't confirm your assumed correlation to something as a causal link doesn't mean they aren't doing their jobs properly, for goodness sakes man!

 

[psychoslice]

Because doctors/scientists don't find causal links to things ever? If that were true, they wouldn't ask for family history of their patents! Nor bother conducting medical exams. Hell they wouldn't even bother conversing with their patients. Nor conduct studies of anything.

I know over diagnosing and relying on certain medications is a problem in a few fields of medical science, but that doesn't automatically mean that all doctors in all fields are devoid of properly analyzing a correlation and a causal link.

Just because they won't confirm your assumed correlation to something as a causal link doesn't mean they aren't doing their jobs properly, for goodness sakes man!

A lot of doctors are doing their best, but they are dictated by pharmaceutical, and whatever they are told they do, and mean while people are dying from many medications, in fact doctors and hospitals are the most dangerous place to be.........but of course in some cases they are the best place to be, but get out as soon as possible while the going is good lol.

 

[SomeRandom]

A lot of doctors are doing their best, but they are dictated by pharmaceutical, and whatever they are told they do, and mean while people are dying from many medications, in fact doctors and hospitals are the most dangerous place to be.........but of course in some cases they are the best place to be, but get out as soon as possible while the going is good lol.

What on earth are you talking about? You do realize how much we in Aus actually have to pay for our health care, don't you? (I only say this because I thought you lived in Aus.) It's no where near the amount of Americans seem to, even taking into account the exchange rate and differing economies. You know in Australia the highest paid job is actually Anesthetists. So does this mean we should not trust any form of anesthesia when going under the knife? Ouch! Literally ouch! Like seriously, man wtf?

I admit hating going to the hospital or to the doctors. But that has more to do with growing up in the doctor's office because my dad was battling cancer. But even I wouldn't dismiss hospitals or doctors entirely. To do so would be well.........dumb and ultimately ungrateful.

Oh and just FYI. ALL medication and medical procedures carry with it a risk of death. That's just how the world is. Because there is literally no way any one type of medicine can guarantee that no person (with millions of potential different chemical reactions) would not have ANY adverse reactions to it. Which is why there are multiple types of certain drugs. I don't know what you expect of medicine

 

[psychoslice]

What on earth are you talking about? You do realize how much we in Aus actually have to pay for our health care, don't you? (I only say this because I thought you lived in Aus.) It's no where near the amount of Americans seem to, even taking into account the exchange rate and differing economies. You know in Australia the highest paid job is actually Anesthetists. So does this mean we should not trust any form of anesthesia when going under the knife? Ouch! Literally ouch! Like seriously, man wtf?

I admit hating going to the hospital or to the doctors. But that has more to do with growing up in the doctor's office because my dad was battling cancer. But even I wouldn't dismiss hospitals or doctors entirely. To do so would be well.........dumb and ultimately ungrateful.

Oh and just FYI. ALL medication and medical procedures carry with it a risk of death. That's just how the world is. Because there is literally no way any one type of medicine can guarantee that no person (with millions of potential different chemical reactions) would not have ANY adverse reactions to it. Which is why there are multiple types of certain drugs. I don't know what you expect of medicine

Its good that you a lot of faith, but I don't. Because of my doctor I could have been dead by now, I complained of server pain in my groin area, which continued over two years. My doctor said don't worry about it, its nothing, but I did worry over it and did my own research, going back to the doctor after two years of pain, I demanded him to look further, and what did they find, ha, just prostate cancer. When I was admitted and after removing my prostate, I began to have unbearable pain, I knew that it was my catheter being blocked by the blood and tissue that was coming through from the operation. I rolled around in total agony pleading to the male nurse to flush it, he said that its was only pain and that I had to except that. After two hour's of agony my physiotherapist came in to see me, I grabbed his arm and begged him to get a doctor, he was panicking, and ran to get help, a nurse came running in and strait away flushed my catheter bringing me instant relief, the nurse that I originally begged just said, Oh, it was blocked, I could have killed that jerk right there on the spot. So you can see why I don't trust the medical systems, well not totally.

 

[psychoslice]

It doesn't end there either, my dad who was admitted to the hospital for observation because of his heart, developed a blood clot in his lower leg, the doctor on shift supposedly had to let the next doctor know to administer a drip to dissolve the clot, well he died, why ?, because the **** head doctor forgot to let the other doctor know.........hospitals, keep clear as much as you can.

 

[SomeRandom]

Its good that you a lot of faith, but I don't. Because of my doctor I could have been dead by now, I complained of server pain in my groin area, which continued over two years. My doctor said don't worry about it, its nothing, but I did worry over it and did my own research, going back to the doctor after two years of pain, I demanded him to look further, and what did they find, ha, just prostate cancer. When I was admitted and after removing my prostate, I began to have unbearable pain, I knew that it was my catheter being blocked by the blood and tissue that was coming through from the operation. I rolled around in total agony pleading to the male nurse to flush it, he said that its was only pain and that I had to except that. After two hour's of agony my physiotherapist came in to see me, I grabbed his arm and begged him to get a doctor, he was panicking, and ran to get help, a nurse came running in and strait away flushed my catheter bringing me instant relief, the nurse that I originally begged just said, Oh, it was blocked, I could have killed that jerk right there on the spot. So you can see why I don't trust the medical systems, well not totally.

I am sorry for your negative experiences.
I too know of many first or rather second hand.
Like my friend had a skin check, found nothing wrong. Then went to a skin/cancer specialist and had an operation straight away after a diagnosis of skin cancer.
I mean the doctors who treated my father's cancer almost killed him multiple times. When they gave him radiation therapy (which they shouldn't have given his age and it actually did kill him imo) they gave him a much larger dose. This caused him months of agony as they literally burnt him alive. It was truly awful to witness. They eventually "cleaned him up" most likely to avoid being sued into oblivion for malpractice.
My cousin was suddenly pulled off her Bi Polar medication by her Psychologist and then jumped in front of a train due to her crippling depression (the family sued for malpractice amongst other things. I think the guy lost his license, which is good.) Another was almost killed due to negligence. I too have many many stories of incompetent doctors and their life jeopardizing mistakes.
I don't have faith in the medical system, far from it actually. But even still I trust doctors as a whole more than some random yahoo to diagnose my health condition. But that doesn't mean I will just shrug my shoulders after one diagnosis. I will go to more than one if I feel like they're just being ********. (Second opinions are lifesavers, imo.)
Which can happen in the medical field as all fields. Unfortunately unlike other professions a simple mistake or indifference is actually life threatening in medical fields.

 

[philbo]

As long as your happy believing that.

Why wouldn't I be? There is no credible reason for me to change my view - you have provided absolutely zilch to back up anything you believe, so from a rational perspective it's a view that can reasonably be discarded.

 

[psychoslice]

Why wouldn't I be? There is no credible reason for me to change my view - you have provided absolutely zilch to back up anything you believe, so from a rational perspective it's a view that can reasonably be discarded.

I don't even remember you showing any evidence.

 

[psychoslice]

I am sorry for your negative experiences.
I too know of many first or rather second hand.
Like my friend had a skin check, found nothing wrong. Then went to a skin/cancer specialist and had an operation straight away after a diagnosis of skin cancer.
I mean the doctors who treated my father's cancer almost killed him multiple times. When they gave him radiation therapy (which they shouldn't have given his age and it actually did kill him imo) they gave him a much larger dose. This caused him months of agony as they literally burnt him alive. It was truly awful to witness. They eventually "cleaned him up" most likely to avoid being sued into oblivion for malpractice.
My cousin was suddenly pulled off her Bi Polar medication by her Psychologist and then jumped in front of a train due to her crippling depression (the family sued for malpractice amongst other things. I think the guy lost his license, which is good.) Another was almost killed due to negligence. I too have many many stories of incompetent doctors and their life jeopardizing mistakes.
I don't have faith in the medical system, far from it actually. But even still I trust doctors as a whole more than some random yahoo to diagnose my health condition. But that doesn't mean I will just shrug my shoulders after one diagnosis. I will go to more than one if I feel like they're just being ********. (Second opinions are lifesavers, imo.)
Which can happen in the medical field as all fields. Unfortunately unlike other professions a simple mistake or indifference is actually life threatening in medical fields.

Sorry to hear that, it looks like it must be happening everywhere, but still we have to trust someone, and we as individuals can only make that choice, and that is all I have done.

 

[philbo]

I don't even remember you showing any evidence.

There's a problem with your memory then.

 

[SomeRandom]

Sorry to hear that, it looks like it must be happening everywhere, but still we have to trust someone, and we as individuals can only make that choice, and that is all I have done.

Well nothing is infallible. The price paid for incompetence in Medical Fields are.........well lives but that still doesn't reflect the majority of the industry. It just makes the few mistakes rather awful compared to other mistakes happening in other fields.