Vaccinations and Religious Exemptions

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I find your view wholly immoral. You just said that it's fine and dandy to sacrifice children to gods. That's called murder - I don't care what tribe you belong to.

Psst: we said "scarification" (deliberate scars and skin markings), not "sacrification" (which AFAIK isn't even a word).

 

[SkepticThinker]

Psst: we said "scarification" (deliberate scars and skin markings), not "sacrification" (which AFAIK isn't even a word).

Oh geez, I totally misread that. Sorry, my bad.
Thanks for the correction!

That's actually a relief! Though I do find scarification to be wrong as well.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Like I said, you can continue to be wrong. You seem hellbent on that.

OMGosh, I don't know how you can't see this.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Again, don't whine about FGM, lest you be hypocritical. Human sacrifice should be cool, too.

Oh puhleeze. Argumentum ad passiones.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

That's correct: the rights are inherent in the individual.

But let's unpack your idea of "inherent community rights" a bit: what rights do you think the larger secular community has to restrict its members and sub-groups, such as Jews and Jewish families?

For example, we can pass laws that are good for the community at large, i.e. to protect freedom of speech, which might impinge on the freedom of the individual to be free of harassment. I as a Jew don't appreciate being told to go back to the ovens, but I understand that it is for the greater community good that the right to say such things be protected.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Both involve cutting away at a baby's genitalia.

No circumcision does NOT cut away genitalia. Cutting away the penis would be cutting away genitalia.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

They don't have any experience with a foreskin either though, do they?

So if I can find a guy who says it did negatively effect him, then what?

I know of men who have become Jews as adults, meaning they have lived uncircumcised and become circumcised. They say it is different but they have no complaints.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The same could be said of a person who was given a good, hard slap as a baby. Should we be slapping babies?

OMGosh. If a baby isn't breathing, even after clearing its nose and throat, give it a good hard slap.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Actually, I'm not. I'm saying that all people should be able to make decisions about their own bodies, without such decisions being imposed on them by others.

That is imposing by force Western individualism on my tribe. Butt out of tribal matters.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I find your view wholly immoral. You just said that it's fine and dandy to sacrifice children to gods. That's called murder - I don't care what tribe you belong to.

My "cultural values" are that people have the right to decide for themselves what they want done to their own bodies, without it being imposed upon them, when they are unable to consent to any of it. If you think that's arrogant, then so be it. I find it obvious and reasonable.

Judaism does not sacrifice children.

I agree that there is a line that should not be crossed and that human sacrifice clearly crosses that line. But no one is arguing for human sacrifice.

What you are arguing is that a harmless cosmetic surgery should be outlawed simply because the child can't consent. That's you imposing by force Western individualism.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Why can't they be "initiated into the tribe" after they reach an age where they have the ability to understand what it means to be a member of the tribe, and when they can consent to having parts of their body removed? Why must it be imposed upon them before this?

Because Jewish Law (the Torah) absolutely MANDATES IT on the eighth day (except for converts).

It is only because you do not understand the value of community rights (something valued less in the West, especially by the Left) that you are having a hard time understanding this.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Oh puhleeze. Argumentum ad passiones.

Move the hell on.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

OMGosh. If a baby isn't breathing, even after clearing its nose and throat, give it a good hard slap.

I'm talking about a healthy baby. A baby who's just as healthy as a typical baby who's about to be circumcised.

Should we slap those sorts of babies? After all, the immediate pain probably isn't any greater than the pain during circumcision and the pain during recovery is probably much less for a slap.

If circumcision isn't abuse, why would slapping a baby be abuse?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I'm talking about a healthy baby. A baby who's just as healthy as a typical baby who's about to be circumcised.

Should we slap those sorts of babies? After all, the immediate pain probably isn't any greater than the pain during circumcision and the pain during recovery is probably much less for a slap.

If circumcision isn't abuse, why would slapping a baby be abuse?

I don't think an open hand to the bottom is abuse. I just think it is stupid. It serves no purpose.

Circumcision has a purpose. It initiates a child into the People of Israel.

 

[SkepticThinker]

No circumcision does NOT cut away genitalia. Cutting away the penis would be cutting away genitalia.

What? The foreskin is part of the genitalia.

 

[SkepticThinker]

That is imposing by force Western individualism on my tribe. Butt out of tribal matters.

Sorry, can't do that if you're doing things to people without their consent.

Do you think if you have some religious belief that requires killing people, that "western individualism" should have to butt out of it? Where does the line get drawn?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Judaism does not sacrifice children.

I agree that there is a line that should not be crossed and that human sacrifice clearly crosses that line. But no one is arguing for human sacrifice.

What you are arguing is that a harmless cosmetic surgery should be outlawed simply because the child can't consent. That's you imposing by force Western individualism.

I'm glad to here that.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

That is imposing by force Western individualism on my tribe. Butt out of tribal matters.

You don't want non-Jews to consider Jews part of their community?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Because Jewish Law (the Torah) absolutely MANDATES IT on the eighth day (except for converts).

It is only because you do not understand the value of community rights (something valued less in the West, especially by the Left) that you are having a hard time understanding this.

What I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around is that some God creates baby boys with foreskins and then requires adults to cut off parts of it when the babies are born.
If it's so important for people not to have foreskins, why does God make humans who have them?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

What I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around is that some God creates baby boys with foreskins and then requires adults to cut off parts of it when the babies are born.
If it's so important for people not to have foreskins, why does God make humans who have them?

I've actually looked into the requirement for male circumcision and no one really knows the reason why the requirement is there. Obviously it's crap as a tribal identifier since Jews were never the only people to practice male circumcision (the Egyptians did it first). There's some esoteric theories as to why but that's it. Jewish girls have no equivalent when they are infants.