Do you know what I mean by fundamentalism? If you're a fundamentalist, your freedom to create your own idea, thought and expression is being overpowered by a book which was written in the dark ages. What we read in that book if it is applicable today we should use it, but those that are clearly objectionable we should discard it.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Validity of Muhammad's message.
- Thread starter thedude
- Start date
Do you know what I mean by fundamentalism? If you're a fundamentalist, your freedom to create your own idea, thought and expression is being overpowered by a book which was written in the dark ages. What we read in that book if it is applicable today we should use it, but those that are clearly objectionable we should discard it.
Interesting that at first Muhammad didn't even know that his "visions" were from God.
t seems that the belief in Islam takes a blind leap of faith. Meaning, so much weight is given to the question of whether God truly spoke to Muhammad. A man who wasn't sure he heard from God after supposedly hearing from an angel, had suicidal thoughts, built a following partly based on military conquest, married/had sex with a nine year old, and advocated the murder of his enemies. I mean comeon, you have to agree that some of Muhammad characteristic's are unfit to be a prophet of God.
In case you are interested, these things can be found in Revered Muslim writings such as "Sirat Rasul Allah", the Hadith collections of Bukhari, Muslim, and Abu Dawud, and "The history of al-Tabari" among others.
And another point about Islam. I'm sure some of you might disagree but I think this is an incredibly important concept. First, I will ask anyone what is mankinds deepest desire? (in general) Well, when I look at myself and all of the people around me, it is obvious to me that everyone wants to be loved. I believe saying that "being loved" is mankinds deepest desire. Interestingly enough though, this is the one thing that is never 100% satisfied. Yes, you can have the best family in the world, marry the most unbelieveable woman, but there is still something lacking - there are times when you can't fulfill this desire no matter what. On the contrary, if you have a sexual desire then you can have sex. If you are hungry then you can eat until you are completely full.
The point I am trying to make is this: The Quran describes Allah as an impersonal being, impossible to approach or fully comprehend. Essentially meaning, mankind cannot have a personal relationship with Allah - instead Allah can only be worshipped from afar in paradise. So the one thing that mankind wants the most and the one thing that cannot be 100% satisfied on earth, Allah does not fulfill. Instead it is almost the opposite as Allah is s far above mankind that he is virtually unknowable. I'm sure many Muslims will find a way to disagree with me on this but seriously, when I was looking for the "truth" or however you want to call it, this was one of the aspects of Islam that seemed wrong.
t seems that the belief in Islam takes a blind leap of faith. Meaning, so much weight is given to the question of whether God truly spoke to Muhammad. A man who wasn't sure he heard from God after supposedly hearing from an angel, had suicidal thoughts, built a following partly based on military conquest, married/had sex with a nine year old, and advocated the murder of his enemies. I mean comeon, you have to agree that some of Muhammad characteristic's are unfit to be a prophet of God.
In case you are interested, these things can be found in Revered Muslim writings such as "Sirat Rasul Allah", the Hadith collections of Bukhari, Muslim, and Abu Dawud, and "The history of al-Tabari" among others.
And another point about Islam. I'm sure some of you might disagree but I think this is an incredibly important concept. First, I will ask anyone what is mankinds deepest desire? (in general) Well, when I look at myself and all of the people around me, it is obvious to me that everyone wants to be loved. I believe saying that "being loved" is mankinds deepest desire. Interestingly enough though, this is the one thing that is never 100% satisfied. Yes, you can have the best family in the world, marry the most unbelieveable woman, but there is still something lacking - there are times when you can't fulfill this desire no matter what. On the contrary, if you have a sexual desire then you can have sex. If you are hungry then you can eat until you are completely full.
The point I am trying to make is this: The Quran describes Allah as an impersonal being, impossible to approach or fully comprehend. Essentially meaning, mankind cannot have a personal relationship with Allah - instead Allah can only be worshipped from afar in paradise. So the one thing that mankind wants the most and the one thing that cannot be 100% satisfied on earth, Allah does not fulfill. Instead it is almost the opposite as Allah is s far above mankind that he is virtually unknowable. I'm sure many Muslims will find a way to disagree with me on this but seriously, when I was looking for the "truth" or however you want to call it, this was one of the aspects of Islam that seemed wrong.
moegypt
Active Member
Ok, You should know that Islam is spreading now also and speedily.
The verse is clear as the sun in the blue sky.
against those who fight against you
It is clear... It doesn't talk about what you said... And what will I do if someone fight me...Will I give him a gift or a kiss?!
moegypt
Active Member
So, What is idolaters mean?? It means unbelievers.
You say: there is always danger and terror hanging over his head that if he does not seek the protection of Muhammad he will be slaugthered.
and I say:
The Aya is talking about the war.... in the war.
In the war... If someone from the opposite side come to me... How will I deal with him?? He should seek the protection.... That is toooooooo logic.
moegypt
Active Member
You know, I know many people from west more kind than you.
You should learn yourself how to talk and how to debate.
Your answers are very weak....
You hate Islam... Ok hate it... But Islam will continue to spread with: LA ILAHA ILA ALLAH.
And also, You should read history well.. to know that who was strong become weak and who was weak becomes strong.. This is the life... And changes will happen in the future.
K.Venugopal
Immobile Wanderer
The idols at Kabah represented the religion of the idol-worshippers. Begin a non-idol worshipping religion, by all means. But why destroy the idol-worshippers religion for it? If the argument is that Kabah was originally built by Abraham and it had no idols and it was the idol-worshippers who profaned Kabah, it would be worth remembering that Abraham himself ought to have been no role-model because he was an iconoclast himself who began his religious career by destroying the idols his father worshipped. Mohammad obviously did not believe in the concept of sacred spaces unless that space happened to be Islamic space. (For the record, Mohammad destroyed not only the idols at Kabah, but all idols in Mecca.)
Quoth The Raven
Half Arsed Muse
He married the girl, he didn't necessarily consumate that marriage when she was 9. Good Christian men in England were entering into marriages with 7 year olds only a few 100 years ago, but that didn't mean they were consumating their marriages either.
It was a contract with mutual benefits, not a means to be able to shag the one you love without god getting testy. Why people always assume that marriage in an historical context equals immediate sexual gratification is beyond me.:sarcastic
I'd consider it a sign of good mental health that the man didn't just get up and declare,'The angel told me this!' without questioning if it was all in his head. Getting the official sandals of prophethood also doesn't mean you can't get depressed at any stage. It also doesn't say in the official handbook you should let yourself be stapled to a tree because the people that don't like you think you should be gone when you can stand up for yourself instead. It could be said that some people didn't find Jesus so satisfactory as the chosen of god largely because of his peace, love and mungbeans philosophy and the notable lack of smiting.
As to the rest, what you've essentially said is that you looked at a few religions, found one that suited what you wanted in a faith and called it truth. I'm sure there are plenty of people just hereabouts who will tell you that religion is about subjecting yourself to the will of God, you don't pick one cos it suits you. Otherwise we'd all apparently be anarchic, pillaging heathens with no morals (or something equally as tasteless). If you can pick your religion on the grounds it strikes a chord, then why would anyone elses be any less correct when chosen on that basis? There are plenty of gods who aren't really that fussed with us at all (except perhaps for the occasional extra marital activity), just because you want yours to be the great cuddly sky daddy because you can't find fulfilment any other way doesn't make you any more right than those of us who have no expectation of such.
fullyveiled muslimah
Evil incarnate!
This is by far the best, funniest, and truthful post I've read on here in quite some time. How did I ever get along for even a day without reading your posts....? Don't know, but you keep proving to me why you are one of my favorite posters.
Don Penguinoini
Modi.
You expect them to discard it? Your standards of applicable laws are off the scale. Just because you don't afree with it, it doesen't mean that it should be discarded. No-ne cares if your objecting it. Because you say so, doesent make it so. Just because it was made in the dark ages, it dosesent mean its stupid. The vedas was written THOUSANDS of years ago. Yet it contains some of the most advanced things in the world. Fundamentalism? Thats 7/11, thats fundamentalism.
Mujahid Mohammed
Well-Known Member
I am talking about where in the history of Islam did this particular order from the Quran come from not where is the order in the Quran.
Not when you are talking about a rule in Jihad or Qital. for the order for that did not come in Mecca. it came in Medina, 13 years later. Now look at the events leading up to the hijrah or migration. Why were they migrating. what was causing them to leave? Who was causing them to leave? Why did they feel they had to leave? How did they leave?
the Quran does not deal with the Islamic conquest of Arabia. It deals with the bringing of the religion of Ibrahim, back to the Arabs when they had lost it. the Quran deals with the life of Muhammed and gives the legislation of how to obey Allah and following the Quran by obeying the Messenger of Allah and understanding and implementing the laws laid out by Allah through the living context of the Messenger. How he and his followers fulfilled the rights of Allah in Islam is the criterion. anyone less then them is not an example in Islam.
where? you have not listed a verse.
why did they oppose him? What did he do?
Murdered? who did he murder? Murder is killing someone without reason and it is premeditated.
What if you committed a crime against the state should they go unpunished?
Still no names. Who is they and them you speak of.
You sure about that. So let me ask you something what happens to people now a days when they speak out against the government when they swore to uphold all the rights therein. If you promise to support the government and they will support you in times of peace and war. If you go against that in wartime you are considered a traitor being guilty of treason. Now in my great LOL country of the US this is standard. so explain if the jews who made a covenant with the Messenger pbuh. to protect him and uphold his rights, these two out of the supposed many you claim made alliances with the Quraish and spoke out in the CNN of that time against the Messenger and the Muslims.
Mujahid Mohammed
Well-Known Member
Why do you exaggerate? So please list the hadiths that support what you claim about Muhammed.
Wow, I get it now you have never even read the Quran. that is very clear.
wow, maybe you should ask you arab christian brothers their opinions about Allah.
I can see from your post that your knowledge of Islam and especially the Quran is very light in measure. there are many hadith and many ayat in the Quran that tell about how doing the deeds for the pleasure of Allah draws one closer. How Allah is closer to us then our jugular vein. etc. etc. etc. How we rely on Allah and worship and need him. How do you ask and want and need all those things from something you do not have a relationship with. to ask him for forgiveness and guidance acknowledges the fact that we seek it from him.
This relationship you speak of. You claim to have a relationship with this person or diety you call God. When you cannot even tell me when he was born or at what time according to your scriptures he died. You cannot tell me what his last words were on the cross. You cannot even tell me who was there at the grave site or tomb. Why because you have different statement of events from the sources you have. when was the man born if you know him so much. What was his mothers father and mothers name. Is any of the witnessess you have from people who walked with him or was with him. where is the testimony of those that walked with him or even gave birth too and raised him. The family lineage you give in your book is not even Jesus. and their are differences in names. 66 names of fathers and grandfathers whose only father is God and His is the only one not mentioned. God left him name out. what happened in the early years of Jesus's life oh lets say after his birth. What was he doing at age 8 or 9, how about 12, can you give me some info on him around 16 what about 18. 20 maybe? give me something since you have such a good relationship with him, because you know him so well.
You talk about Islam like you have all the answeres, Muhammed order the murder of people, without even taking into consideration what caused these orders to come down. Where the Meccan bringing the muslims fruit baskets? inviting them to parties? showering them with gifts? Giving them money and everyone was being all cool and then the order from the mountain came down 13 years later kill all the infidels?
why? why was the order given 13 years later. Why were their limits set up in the first order which clearly states only fight those who have fought you and oppressed you. If the order to kill everyone who was non muslim why did they not just start rounding up people like the Nazi's did the jews.
fullyveiled muslimah
Evil incarnate!
Another thing about the whole Allah is impersonal thing. Only a christian (and I don't mean that in a derogatory way) would equate the lack of love with not being a person or personified. Allah is only stressing to His creation how much He is not a creation Himself. Allah stresses that He is above it so that we will not feel inclined to worship things other than Allah, while claiming that we worship only Allah, or claiming that since Allah is present in this or that we can worship it all the same. Allah's assertion that He is not a part of creation itself in no way implies that He is incapable or unwilling to love, show compassion, mercy, and benevolence.
I really don't expect you to understand it because in all fairness, you cannot comprehend a god that is both loving and not anthropomorphic as you assume he is.
I really don't expect you to understand it because in all fairness, you cannot comprehend a god that is both loving and not anthropomorphic as you assume he is.
Mujahid Mohammed
Well-Known Member
well said :clap:clap
Yes and no, I think for most muslims, it is the fact that in the life of Jesus, he has more qualities of man then of God. He never said he was god, he never said worship him, he said he was given his power by God, he was sent by God, His God and Father is our god and father, and he said to worship God. for we believe in Jesus philosophy, peace, love, and all that.
Many of us, could be just me, especially those who chose Islam cannot understand this conundrum of believing something about someone when they themselves say something contrary.
yeah i can dig it.
This still goes back to the original question,why did they put so much faith in this Man,what was his persuader.The Bible has lots of violent episodes yet christians are happy to talk about it whereas muslims become very defensive.Does it really matter whether he killed all those people or not it would have been quite normal for those days.This is the problem with religion a set of teachings that have been given by a man.Lets look at Plato ,Socrates,Aristotle,Hypocrates etc they interpreted some ideas but unlike muslims and christian did'nt use violence to force it.
And they did'nt have the Holier than thou attitude
You did not understand what is written in your koran. You even blow-up the phrase;
"...against those who fight against you"
Yes, it talked about what I said. Because the word "fight" in the verse cannot be interpreted one way... as fight with arms, fight in war or jihad. Muslims fight their enemies when they feel they are insulted. For example the killing of Van Gogh in Holland is fight in the way of Allah. A fatwa to kill Salman Rushdie for insulting Muhammad. Hirsi Ali and Wafa Sultan are protected by police because there are threats to their lives. These brave women fought islam not by arms but by exposing islam as a wrong religion. If you are insulted because of your religion... do you think you retaliate with a kiss.
I agree Balalho
To repeat... The idolaters are the unbelievers. I think you did not get my point when I said that;
'There is always danger and terror hanging over his head that if he does not seek the protection of Muhammad he will be slaugthered.'
Yes... there is terror and danger hanging over an unbeliever's head if he does not seek the protection of Muhammad. What is this protection? The answer is; To believe islam. Once he believed, an unbeliever is then told to recite the mantra that; "There is no other god but Allah and Muhammad is his prophet." That is his protection! And it's his conversion to islam.
You opined:
"The Aya is talking about the war.... in the war."
Reply:
What war? Is it revolutionary... or is it a civil war? The answer is; It is a religious war. Muhammad is not a known political leader but he is more popular as a religious warrior. So anybody on the opposite side seeking the protection of Muhammad should recite the mantra that; "There is no other god but Allah and Muhammad is his prophet." If they [unbelievers or idolaters] don't believe they will be slaughtered. Yuo get the point?
Mujahid Mohammed
Well-Known Member
No, the issue is not why we put faith in him, that is another discussion. My responses have been to the claim that Muhammed murdered innocents, spread the religion by the sword, and all the other broken record misconceptions.
Yes it does matter if he did there should be reason, and if he did not then the lie need to stop circulating.
Islam was not given by a man. The Quran is from Allah. Not from Muhammed.
none of which you mentioned above are the founders of any religious movement, nor have they claimed to speak to god or performed miracles which is one of the characteristic of a messenger of Allah. and none of these individuals commanded their students to worship Allah, nor are any of them from amongst the descendants of Abraham. so to use them makes no sense. Also you keep saying muslims used violence to force their religion, so where is your evidence since balolho has yet to provide any. Until you or him provide examples of this spread through violence from those who established Islam and were among those whom Allah said got it right ie. Muhammed and the believers, then you will be like all those people around other times of the year who actually believe eggs come from rabbits, elves have gold, or there is a fat guy living at the poles making toys with little men. Or you are like the parents who teach these lies (even if in good fun). A lie is a lies, something made up is made up, and beleif without evidence is just a belief but not the truth.
You did not get my point! Those verses in the koran that deals with violence... I don't expect them to discard it. It's in the blood already! It is only my opinion for them to discard it. If they don't care so what! Because it was written in the dark ages there are many passages there that are no longer applicable to our modern age. The same with the vedas. It's already a cult. But those that are still applicable today we should use it. Why not?