Mujahid Mohammed
Well-Known Member
Who for example? give me a name of a person or group of people. what is your source for this information?
Have you ever read the quran?
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Validity of Muhammad's message.
- Thread starter thedude
- Start date
Have you ever read the quran?
There are verses in the Koran that says Muhammad waged war to fight the infidel and make allah's religion supreme. Some example of the verses in the Koran below.
Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God's entirely. - Sura 2:193 and 8:39
Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. - 2:216
(different translation: ) Prescribed for you is fighting, though it is hateful to you.
..... martyrs.... Enter heaven - Surah 3:140-43
moegypt
Active Member
A good question,
42|52|And thus have We inspired in thee (Muhammad) a Spirit of Our command. Thou knewest not what the Scripture was, nor what the Faith. But We have made it a light whereby We guide whom We will of Our bondmen. And lo! thou verily dost guide unto a right path.
Qur'an is the word of ALLAH not Mohammad.
I have a question... If the source was 10 people.... Will we believe that the holy book is accurate?
If we say this one is good...others will say: but this one is bad..etc
moegypt
Active Member
I think that you should read Qur'an:
2|256|There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower.
Qur'an speak to the mind
im sure these are not the only verses in the quran that advocate violence to spread islam.
moegypt
Active Member
I will give you good examples:
2|190|Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not, aggressors.
Who fight against you but don't begin: I think it is obvious.
9|6|And if anyone of the idolaters seeketh thy protection (O Muhammad), then protect him so that he may hear the word of Allah; and afterward convey him to his place of safety. That is because they are a folk who know not.
convey him to his place of safety: It is obvious also.
60|8|Allah forbiddeth you not those who warred not against you on account of religion and drove you not out from your homes, that ye should show them kindness and deal justly with them. Lo! Allah loveth the just dealers.
It is obvious, my friend.... so read the Qur'an carefully please.
K.Venugopal
Immobile Wanderer
They were defeated. But were they killed?
Don Penguinoini
Modi.
I would guess so, id be stunned if they just, gave up.
Wandered Off
Sporadic Driveby Member
Do you know what about Hinduism disqualifies it from conventional definitions of religion, according to your teacher? What was the context of the remark?
Don Penguinoini
Modi.
Hinduism is a religion, it believes in god. I could say the same for Islam...
Don Penguinoini
Modi.
Hinduism is a religion, it believes in god. I could say the same for Islam... The world should not feel ashamed, the world is right... It is a collection of philosphical thoughts, also its a way of life too. Also the way to reach god and to accept all and god.
Princess Of Peace
Member
that is amazingly out of context. fighting innocent people is completely prohibited in islam.
here is surah 2:190-193
190. Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.
191. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.
192. But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. 193. And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah. but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.
its pretty clear that any fighting is in self defence and to allow the muslims who were being oppressed the right to practice their faith freely.
i really can't understand that last 'verse' you quoted, you really shouldn't show 4 different verses into one.
heres 3:140-143
140. If a wound hath touched you, be sure a similar wound hath touched the others. Such days (of varying fortunes) We give to men and men by turns: that Allah may know those that believe, and that He may take to Himself from your ranks Martyr-witnesses (to Truth). And Allah loveth not those that do wrong.
141. Allah's object also is to purge those that are true in Faith and to deprive of blessing Those that resist Faith.
142. Did ye think that ye would enter Heaven without Allah testing those of you who fought hard (In His Cause) and remained steadfast?
143. Ye did indeed wish for death before ye met him: Now ye have seen him with your own eyes, (And ye flinch!)
Below is my interpretation of the quotes in the Koran.
Quote: 2|190|Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not, aggressors. Unquote
What does this verse mean? It means that those who fight against muslims are those people... in the opinion of muslims, insulted their religion. A person, let's say a Jew or a Christian, If he say that islam is a false religion, that is considered as fighting against allah. It's an insult to them. This means you are waging war against their religion. Most muslims has got no power of reasoning so they use violence to retaliate.
Quote: 9|6|And if anyone of the idolaters seeketh thy protection (O Muhammad), then protect him so that he may hear the word of Allah; and afterward convey him to his place of safety. That is because they are a folk who know not. Unquote
This verse means that if an unbeliever believes in Muhammad he will not be harmed and be protected. You see... To an idolater, according to this verse, there is always danger and terror hanging over his head that if he does not seek the protection of Muhammad he will be slaugthered. The protection referred to in this verse is to be converted to islam. This verse even mock us at the end that we are 'folks who know not'. Meaning we are ignorant. This is funny because while they [muslims] are living in the culture of the dark ages... while we in the west having a modern lifestyle they called us as ignoramuses.
Quote: 60|8|Allah forbiddeth you not those who warred not against you on account of religion and drove you not out from your homes, that ye should show them kindness and deal justly with them. Lo! Allah loveth the just dealers. Unquote
This verse means that if you will not talk [war] against the religion of islam you will not be harm and muslims will treat you with kindness. So... we should walk on a 'tip-toe' on this religion and be tightlipped lest we misstep and bring insults to their religion. Just recently Ms. Gibbons, a British teacher in the Sudan had the mistake of asking her pupils what to name of a teddy bear she brought in class. Her pupils named it Muhammad and she went to jail. Muhammad is a common name in the Middle East and we in the west if we name our pets, let's say a pig, a dog or a donkey Muhammad we are already mark for assasination by muslims.
Quote: 2|190|Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not, aggressors. Unquote
What does this verse mean? It means that those who fight against muslims are those people... in the opinion of muslims, insulted their religion. A person, let's say a Jew or a Christian, If he say that islam is a false religion, that is considered as fighting against allah. It's an insult to them. This means you are waging war against their religion. Most muslims has got no power of reasoning so they use violence to retaliate.
Quote: 9|6|And if anyone of the idolaters seeketh thy protection (O Muhammad), then protect him so that he may hear the word of Allah; and afterward convey him to his place of safety. That is because they are a folk who know not. Unquote
This verse means that if an unbeliever believes in Muhammad he will not be harmed and be protected. You see... To an idolater, according to this verse, there is always danger and terror hanging over his head that if he does not seek the protection of Muhammad he will be slaugthered. The protection referred to in this verse is to be converted to islam. This verse even mock us at the end that we are 'folks who know not'. Meaning we are ignorant. This is funny because while they [muslims] are living in the culture of the dark ages... while we in the west having a modern lifestyle they called us as ignoramuses.
Quote: 60|8|Allah forbiddeth you not those who warred not against you on account of religion and drove you not out from your homes, that ye should show them kindness and deal justly with them. Lo! Allah loveth the just dealers. Unquote
This verse means that if you will not talk [war] against the religion of islam you will not be harm and muslims will treat you with kindness. So... we should walk on a 'tip-toe' on this religion and be tightlipped lest we misstep and bring insults to their religion. Just recently Ms. Gibbons, a British teacher in the Sudan had the mistake of asking her pupils what to name of a teddy bear she brought in class. Her pupils named it Muhammad and she went to jail. Muhammad is a common name in the Middle East and we in the west if we name our pets, let's say a pig, a dog or a donkey Muhammad we are already mark for assasination by muslims.
You replies are quotations from the koran. I want your own opinion because if you rely only to the quotations in the Koran that means you are a fundamentalist muslim. Words written in the dark ages you interprete it as all correct.
Don Penguinoini
Modi.
Woah...Fundamentalist. Over the top... Calm down man.
Nice logic. I'd be more inclined to believe that since Muslims believe the Qur'an to be the book of God's guidance and direction for mankind, or the literal word of God that accurately quoting the foundation of the belief would be the best way to answer the "questions" you pose.
Mujahid Mohammed
Well-Known Member
when did this order come exactly? Before of after the muslims were kicked out of Mecca. the problem is it seems you think the Quran came down all at once. these are not the first verses revealed dealing with the legislation of Qital and jihad. there are rules and regulations and limits which people cannot transgress. And who are these verses talking about.
surely you will give some hadith to support your claim, I am still waiting on this list of people that Muhammed killed without reason. Who are the infidels and why did Allah command the muslims to fight them. Take a look at the history and progression of the religion and you will have a better understanding of the quran. For the Quran was revealed over 23 years dealing with occurrences in the Messenger of Allah's life. It was instructing the muslims on how to deal with situations that came up whether before or after an event.
I think you should study the history of the religion a little more.
Mujahid Mohammed
Well-Known Member
Sorry buddy, but Islam has no room for personal interpretation we understand it through the context of Muhammed and his companions for they are the examples and they are the ones who tell us what the Quran means and is for they lived it. It was revealed in their lifetime dealing with things they were dealing with.
This may help you more read this The Authority and Importance of the Sunnah - Religious Education
By the way if they rely on the words of the quran then that is Islam. I do not understand from your statement that if you rely on the quotes in the Quran you are a fundamentalist muslim. So exactly which or whose words should we rely on in understanding our religion? Yours? President Bush's? the UN security council? Israel? How about everybody just come up with their own interpretation of the Quran and Islam and we as muslims accept everyone elses understanding? Forget about what Allah says in the Quran, lets just forget the statements of the man Allah chose and guided to bring humanity the religion of submission to his will. Yeah that makes sense, while I am at it why don't I grow gills and go live with the fishes. Thats makes more sense I think.
P.S. We do not interpret the Quran to be correct. Allah is telling us what the Quran is if you have a quran read surah baqarah first 10 verses or so.
Mujahid Mohammed
Well-Known Member
these verses if looked at in their entirety do not advocate violence at all. and if violence is how it was spread can someone please explain to me how come the muslims did not fight for 13 years. they were oppressed, tortured, beaten up, stipped of all civil liberties, starved, alienated from society, chastised, cursed at and killed. just for believing in one God. they did not kill anyone, beat anyone up. give me one example, just one example of where Muhammed or the sahaba his companions spread Islam through violence.
How did Abu Bakr become muslim, Musab bin Omar, Omar ibn Khattab, Jafar ibn Abu Talib, Khadija, Bilal, uthman ibn Affan, all of the ansar both the Khuwarij and al Aws. Abu Dhajana, Summayah her husband and son Omar. How did all these people become muslims. Please someone give me one example of someone in Islam being forced to accept the religion.
If it is Islam or the sword then why have the Jizyah? there would be no point of allowing them to practice their religion freely and establish their own places of worship. why did the muslims allow this is it is a Islam or death mentality? where is the evidence for all this stuff everyone is always screaming.
Read my signature this is the statement of the messenger of Allah. this is Islam now you say it is spread through the sword. How do you reconcile. Well we are commanded to obey Allah and His Messenger so we cannot just view the verses of Quran in any way we see fit. We are given the interpretation and understanding of our religion from only two sources. The Quran and sunnah. why Glen Beck says about islam is not an authority, what CNN wolf blitzer, George Bush sr or jr., what the news paper the media, your teachers and professers, your parents, friends, religious or spiritual advisors etc. etc. (everyone is the world) in whatever belief you have says about Islam. It is defined by what Allah and His Messenger say and do. what they did, how they lived is Islam. Quran was revealed during and in line with circumstances occuring in their lives.
You cannot say Oh lets go and kill all the infidels. women children men. Innocent people. did the Messenger of Allah do that. did his companions do any of that. What did they do. if you or any of the people i mentioned above have any ideas, opinions, thoughts, or hypothesis you or someone else have come up with about Islam other then what Allah and His Messenger say or who they say should be looked at as examples ie. the Sahaba and the two succeding generations, then you will be completely incorrect in your approach. for the Messenger shows us how to live for Allah by the book he brought. Don't believe the sunnah is important or his way and path read this below.
The Authority and Importance of the Sunnah - Religious Education
I understand where you and others are coming from. But you cannot just define islam or think it is this based on your own intellect without taking in to context all of the factors involved. Like why did Allah say that, To who? when, and what happened in the life of the Messenger to cause this to be said? Who was there when that verse was revealed and what was it in relation to? what is it saying about this person in light of what they have done?
this is how the Quran needs to be understood. You must ask these questions and answer them to get a complete context of the verses and religion as a whole. Peace.
The order came from the koran. If there was a revelation that came from the angel Gabriel in a cave through Muhammad, the question IF the order came 'before or after the muslims were kicked out of Mecca', is irrelevant. Another hypothetical question is; 'If the koran did not arrive all at one time therefore the koran is dealing with the history of islamic conquest in Arabia.' It will come out that the story that the koran is a revelation from god is only allegorical. Just the imagination of the author.
The people he murdered for not believing him is also written in the koran. Here...
After Muhammad came to Yathrib he began to grow in power. However, a number of people, both Jew and Arab, opposed him. Muhammad began to silence his opposition by various means. One of these means was to have them murdered.
Muhammad did have a number of enemies and critics, some were dangerous, others were ordinary people who lived in the area and thought nil of Muhammad. They spoke their minds.
One by one, they were silenced. Through treaties, intrigue, or outright terror, Muhammad gained power in Medina. Eventually, he was master of the area. He knew his followers loved him, and would die for him. They were at his disposal; and at times, he chose to use them to accomplish his desires.
In Yathrib (Medina), Muhammad had a number of people killed. One of them was `Asma' bint Marwan. Her crime was that she spoke out against Muhammad for having another man murdered named Abu Afak. In his displeasure towards her, Muhammad asked his followers to murder her as well. She was killed while she slept.