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Vedanta and science

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
'Advaita Vedanta has influenced modern scientists. Erwin Schrödinger claimed to have been inspired by Vedanta in his discovery of quantum theory. According to his biographer Walter Moore: "The unity and continuity of Vedanta are reflected in the unity and continuity of wave mechanics. In 1925, the world view of physics was a model of a great machine composed of separable interacting material particles. During the next few years, Schrödinger and Werner Heisenberg and their followers created a universe based on superimposed, inseparable waves of probability amplitudes. This new view would be entirely consistent with the Vedantic concept of All in One.". Additionally, Fritjof Capra's book The Tao of Physics is one among several that pursues this viewpoint as it investigates the relationship between modern, particularly quantum, physics and the core philosophies of various Eastern religions, including Hinduism, Buddhism and Taoism. Unfortunately, such writings by western authors often run the risk of oversimplifying and ignoring important differences between Eastern religions. For instance, pre-modern Vedantins argued for the existence of an eternal self, or atman, while Buddhists have denied this possibility. But as more and more translations of Vedantic works become available, modern students of the many schools of Vedanta are able make up their own minds regarding the claims of authors like Schrödinger and Capra.'

As mentioned in the sticky (I appreciate the efforts of Feathers in Hair, the writer to explain it without any distortion), I have considered the various questions are have arrived at these conclusions. Your discussions are welcome:

1. Existence of God: Since one substrate constitutes what is percieved as substance, energy, and gives rise to time, and space, there is no reason to pre-suppose anything like God. As per our current knowledge the substrate is quantum field. I will be open to further advances in science (if it proves there are nine type of strings, I will adjust my belief accordingly). Human happiness or misery does not effect any change in the way of things, so I guess that this substrate has no connection with human affairs, other than the common changes in quantum field. It is not cruel, it is not kind, it is not miserly, it is not munificient, etc. Trying to impute human attributes to it has consistently failed in history.

2. Ribirth/Reincarnation: Again no reason to accept anything like that. Atoms coming from various sources make our beginning, during the time humans are in the womb and later in life, our constitution changes slowly, at death these atoms are recycled into many things.

3. Our consciousness: We percieve ourselves as something definite with particular trains of thought. Percieving ourselves as entities is a temporary and imaginary. Really we are just quantum fields. With our death, just as this entity ceases to exist, our consciousness also ceases to exist.

4. Meaning of life: None. Evolution will go on to (most probably) erase us from this planet where we are captives. We may go to moon, Venus, or Mars, but that is about all. It has done that with all the species, and there is no reason, why we should be exceptions. Our family, our society, our culture, our country, these things give us a purpose. If it is possible to go beyond these without harming these, we may do that, but not at their cost.

5. Karma: Nothing like it. No reason to accept the existence of heaven and hell. Our actions need to be tailored to the needs of our family, our society, and the world in general, because we are parts of it. That is termed in Hinduism as 'dharma' (roughly duty).

6. Enlightenment/Understanding: Closing your eyes or even your mind to thinking in meditation does not get you any understanding. It is clear and focussed thinking (meditation may help) which tells us the way of the world and our position in it. That is enlightenment, it is not that it changes us into a Godman or avatara. Enlightenment is when you have answers to all answerable questions. Nirvana, Moksha, does not mean going to heaven and be with your personal God, though becoming 'Brahmaleen' (being merged with Brahman, the substrate) is much closer (really, you were never separated from it).

I suppose that would be enough for a beginning. Let us discuss this to the best of our ability, as they say 'Tejaswi Navadheetamastu', without being acrimonious to each other, 'Ma Vidvishamahi'.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You are treating time as a reality, as perceived by our senses, Aupmanyav-ji. I see time as a Relativistic dimension. In Reality, there is no past, present or future. There is only a cosmic Now. All things that are happening, ever happened, or ever could happen, are happening NOW, have always been and always will be happening Now.

After death, nothing changes. Change only occurs with Samadhi or Enlightenment, when the totality of the 11-dimension, timeless quantum Universe directly perceived.

A love scene in a film is not finished and forever relegated to the past once the film has advanced past the frames in question. The love scene frames existed before and continue to exist in their entirety even after we've viewed them. The Past-present-future illusion lies in our inability to perceive more than a single frame of Reality at a time, and our being locked into a unidirectional, single-speed, single timeline perception of Reality. In Hinduism this illusion is called Maya.
 

xexon

Destroyer of Worlds
I entered my path through science first. Einstein's unified field theory. I was in pursuit of the highest form of energy. The "source", from which everything else is derived.

Around age 19, I made the jump from physics to meta-physics. It was in Hinduism that I found the connection that bridged our world with the divine. The ancient rishis were actually the first particle physicists. I understood them. Whereas physical science is limited to the material plane, their science was not. I took what they offered and ran with it.

Since we are each the embodiment of awareness, we will each see the path somewhat differently based upon whatever filters we still cling to in this life. As the decades have passed, I cannot help but grin knowing that science is playing catch up to a bunch of old men sitting under the trees somewhere thousands of years ago.

If you consider waves upon the ocean as creation, the sea becomes more calm the closer you get to the source.

In that place, where the sea is like glass, you will find me there.


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Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Thanks, Seyorni, for the nice reply. I also view time-space in a relativistic manner. That is why I said 'one substrate constitutes what is percieved as substance, energy, and gives rise to time, and space'. It is an illusion of illusions, double illusion. If there is nothing else but the 'cosmic now', then the film with the love scenes cannot exist. It is created by probability and chance at any time.

I agree that nothing changes after death, apart from the regular changes that happen all the time, and which is a property of Brahman known to hindus as Maya and as the percieved frolicking of sub-atomic particles by science (aptly named by Carl Segan as Shiva's dance). Death also is an illusion of illusions. IMHO, even with samadhi or enlightenment (when the universe is no more, and only Brahman remains), it cannot be percieved directly (we do not have the wherewithalls to percieve a quantum field). Brahman can be percieved only indirectly, as you rightly said, because of 'our being locked into a unidirectional, single-speed, single timeline perception of Reality'.

Xexon, are you trying to be another 'Parabrahman' like Swami Sahajananda? :(

Where did you run away? There is nowhere to run. Kanada, the other hindu wise men, and Buddha, are sure venerable for me, but the knowledge in science has certainly advanced from their time. And don't be too proud of your decades, there are others also with decades. Knowledge has no decadial limitation, Sankara was just 32 when he died.
 

xexon

Destroyer of Worlds
To "run with it" is a figure of speech. American slang. In this case, it means to embrace something, such as I did with the Vedas. Their scientific overtones agreed with me.

As long as I wear this body, I have to speak as humans speak. In terms of time and space and things that can be identified with. And you can't do it with sterility. You must be a human, with feelings. Science by itself is terribly cold. And besides, people don't like to be preached to. It is best to speak as they do.

I have no desire to be Parabrahman, but if it should find me, what am I going to do, say no?

I don't try to be anything, and as a result, I am everything.


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xexon

Destroyer of Worlds
The only way to serve the ParBrahm is to serve your fellow man.

The best way to serve your fellow man is to become ParBrahm.


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mahesh

Active Member
The best way to serve man is become one with Brahman and serve Parbrahman. You cant become Parbrahman He is one and the master of all Jeevs and inumberable universes.
 

xexon

Destroyer of Worlds
I understand what you are saying, but it ultimately reflects itself in duality.

The ParaBrahman is indeed a single force, and all of creation is just an extension of that, but to think oneself seperate from it is still duality.

The taproot of our souls go all the way to the highest level. As we approach that level, we lose our individuality, but not our connection to the ParaBrahma.

Can a human express the ParaBrahman? No, because of the limitations of the human body and mind. But it doesn't mean the connection is ever broken.

It just can't be expressed.

So Brahman is the best we can do in the eyes of our peers.


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Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
The best way to serve man is become one with Brahman and serve Parbrahman. You cant become Parbrahman He is one and the master of all Jeevs and inumberable universes.
I, of course, do not agree to the heirarchy. Ishwara, Brahman, and Parabrahman, are there more intermediate designations? It seems like one is telling about the structure of military services. II Leutinant, leutinant, Major, Lt. Colonel, Colonel, Brigadier, Major General, Leutinant General, General, Field Marshal. And for you, Swami Sahajanand, a.k.a. Ghanshyam Pande, son of Hari Prasad Pande and Premavati, of Village Chhapaiya, District Faizabad, Uttar Pradesh, at the top.

In 'Advaita', there is only one, Brahman, he requires neither any service nor any worship. Brahman is complete in itself. Mundaka Upanishad says, 'In darkness are those who worship the manifest, in greater darkness are those who who worship the unmanifest'.
 

mahesh

Active Member
You can agree with whatever you will. This is because Purshottam Narayan has given man free will. HEnce you state what you do, unfortunatlely without absolute knowledge. Why do you have a problem with Ghanshyam Pande? He is Brahman too according to you,no? Why even a stone or a dog is. So why cant i worship Him? LOL

Why are you so affected? Purshottam Narayan is one. We souls cannot become Him ever.He is our MAster. He lives through His Anvay Shakti in our soul as VAsudev.He lives in all living beings in such a way at the same time as Living in His abode as one through His Vyatirek Shakti.

He comes into the universe whenever Adharm prevails. Last i know of it, He came as Himself Swaminarayan Bhagwan. Maybe He could even be here today. he has inumberable Avtaars. Just like He told NAradji and Brahmaji.

JAy Swaminarayan
Nar NArayan Dev ki Jay
Laksmi Narayan Dev Ki JAy
Jay Gopinath Ji Maharaj
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
How and why would Brahman worship Brahman? Leave the slave mentality, you are your own master, nobody else is.
 

mahesh

Active Member
Brahman doesnt worship Brahman. Jeev becomes Brahamn once it gets rid of all Maya. Then attains the abode of Parbrahman and lives there in worship and service of Brahman. I dont agree with your philosophy.
 

Pariah

Let go
Aupmanyav said:
Mundaka Upanishad says, 'In darkness are those who worship the manifest, in greater darkness are those who who worship the unmanifest'.

After perusing the Mundaka Upanishad, I cannot find that phrase anywhere. Currently, I'm looking at the other principle Upanishads, but if there are not there, we will have to assume that it is from the minor Upanishads (100 of them), of which I do not have the will to search through.

Then attains the abode of Parbrahman and lives there in worship and service of Brahman. I dont agree with your philosophy.

You can't live in the worship and service of Brahman. Brahman is Nirguna Brahaman, it has no attributes - how can you even conceive of something that does not have form, let alone worship it? Brahman cannot receive prayers or answer them.
 

xexon

Destroyer of Worlds
We are as separate from the "divine" as our toes are from our foot.

Its just a matter of perspective.

If you are a scuba diver and capture a cup of water, what have you accomplished?

The water is the same on the outside of the cup as it is on the inside.




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Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
After perusing the Mundaka Upanishad, I cannot find that phrase anywhere.

You can't live in the worship and service of Brahman. Brahman is Nirguna Brahaman, it has no attributes - how can you even conceive of something that does not have form, let alone worship it? Brahman cannot receive prayers or answer them.
My fault, Isa Upanishad 12 & 14 (http://www.hinduwebsite.com/hinduism/h_polytheism.asp). That is what I am trying to impress upon Mahesh. Brahman does not do anything, it just exists. The rest all is done by our faulty perception which makes us think various things.
 
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