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Vedanta and science

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
There was nothing else in the beginning other than Sri Krishna Parabrahman Purushottam Narayan. Where did the 'jeevas' came from? Therefore, all the 'jeevas' that you percieve are none other than Sri Krishna Parabrahman Purushottam Narayan. You, me, Swami Sahajananda, dogs, pigs, fish, stone, clouds, or any other thing that you name is nothing else but Sri Krishna Parabrahman Purushottam Narayan. That is why He said see everything in me, and me in everything. There is no truth higher than this. That is why Mundaka Upanishad said one who knows this becomes Brahman. One realizes one's own self. It is all so simple. Only who have gone on a wrong road to not find the destination.
 

mahesh

Active Member
FIRSTLY AT LEAST YOU ACCEPT SHRI KRISHNA AS PARBRAHMAN.

Those who follow a barren philosophy, they cannot answer the questions of this life let alone the afterlife. Your Shushk Vedanti views are small and therefore you are not capable to understand even the basic greatness of Purushottam Narayan. You don’t agree to the Vedas, Gita or purnas with such barren views. You don’t know about Bhagwans abodes, Shaktis nor Bhakts.

"That supreme abode of Mine is not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by fire or electricity. Those who reach it never return to this material world." —Sri Krishna, Bhagavad-gita 15.6

You state is there suffering or is there illusion. Now that is foolish. If you were born handicapped and were tortured by parents and forced to eat mud and spat upon by society and you had nobody to teach you your barren philosophy..all this would be an illusion? What I want an answer to is why is the disabled.. disabled and going through pain etc. You fail to answer my question about why some humans are born disabled. Why some animals are fishes, why some children die at young age, why some starve from hunger, why we have natural disasters, why is there water? Etc. I want to here the other views your faith has on it besides “ it is because you are not seeing Brahman or because you are in illusion”. That’s a barren view. Do you even class yourselves as Hindus? And if so, your Brahman then who is Parbrahman? As Shri Krishna has come and stated Himself that he is Parbrahman with proof. Milk is milk water is water.

You fail to give me an answer. What’s the purpose of creation? What is your purpose? You make me laugh. Its ok for you sitting at your desk to come on here with your drivel. If the Brahman you have understood to be “doesn’t do anything” what purpose does it serve?

Electrons orbiting at 600 kms per second in a stone is the energy of the 5 Mahabhoot. It is true that Purshottam Narayan Parbrahman by his Anvay shakti resides in every animate and non animate matter as well as Jeev, ISwar, Maya abd Brahman through His Shrest, Shreshttar and Shreshtam Shakti.

"The Supreme Lord has nothing to do, and no one is found to be equal to or greater than Him, for everything is done naturally and systematically by His multifarious energies." —Svetashvatara Upanishad 6.8

Becoming Brahmmay means becoming Mukt from the clutches of Maya. This is what the Mundaka Upanishads stat. See you ‘cherry pick’ the Shloks of the scriptures and fit them the way you want them to fit.

Shri Krishna Bhagwan stated “see everything in me, and me in everything” as in this way all actions of a bhakt become nirgun. Free from the three attributes of Maya and Brahmmay. That’s why Shri Krishna stated this to Arjun as well. As Arjun thought that if he killed his relatives in the Bharat war he would attain great sin and it would be very disrespectful. But Shri Krishna told him that if he sees Shri Krishna in all actions and carried out his duties he would be nirgun. Also the bhakt does not differentiate between good and bad and sees all in Shri Krishna and Shri Krishna in all and is forever content.

There are five eternal entities. They always existed and always will. Even at the beginning they were there but just not present at that moment.

"I envy no one, nor am I partial to anyone. I am equal to all. But whoever renders service unto Me in devotion is a friend, is in Me, and I am also a friend to him." —Sri Krishna, Bhagavad-gita 9.29

By the way do you render service unto Him in devotion? Are you His friend? Also If you were this very same Shri Krishna then do you envy anyone or are partial? If so why? As you state you are this Shri Krishna. Whereas Shri Krishna states that HE is not partial to anyone nor does He envy anyone.

So then how are you this Shri Krishna? As earlier I saw your post which reeked of being partial as well as envious, one sided, narrow minded, prejudiced, incomplete, unfair, held a grudge, covet etc.

Im not saying im not all them but I don’t claim myself to be Shri Krishna nor a fish lol.

There are hundreds of vakyas of Purshottam Narayan in the scriptures and they ALL fit in with my way of worship and with the philosophy I follow. However, there are hundreds of vakyas and Shlokas of the Sanatan Dharm and Bhagvat Dharmas scriptures which do not fit in with your barren philosophy. Yet you state that it’s the likes of me who are in illusion. HAHA. Truth is its you who has no absolute knowledge. Maybe in your next life you might get some as you have mentioned the names of Purushottam Narayan even.



God bless,

Jay Shri Krishna
Jay Sakaar Bhagwan Purushottam Parbrahman Narayan
 

xexon

Destroyer of Worlds
How many times can you filet a fish before you can see through the slices?

The mind will carry out this assigned task until you put a stop to it. It needs to stop. There is the danger of distraction off the path to pursue this mental activity of chasing one's tail. Lots of activity, but few results. Its not worth your time.

Do not be too concerned with names and numbers. This is still in the mind's realm. You must escape it's influence like a rocket escaping the earth's gravitational pull.

Only then, will you begin to adjust to the darkness. And only then can you orient yourself towards the light.

There are prescribed methods for attaining this awareness. It is a science, not a faith.

x
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
"That supreme abode of Mine is not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by fire or electricity. Those who reach it never return to this material world." Sun, moon, fire, electricity, are all our illusions. The abode of Brahman is neither bright nor dark (Neti, Neti). Those who understand this become Brahman, the world then is an illusion. What will one return to (after the illusions have dissolved)? There is no coming, no going. Brahman is always there constituting everything.

"If you were born handicapped and were tortured by parents and forced to eat mud and spat upon by society" The notion of suffering is that person's illusion, and to put such a person to extra pain is the torturer's illusion. A realized person would not think or act like that. He would understand that what he percieves also is Brahman. That is why Sankaracharya fell at the feet of the Chandala. That one is a man, that one is a woman, that one is handicapped, that there is a fish, that there is a dog, are all our illusions. What is there is just Brahman, the substrate, an energy.

I have already mentioned, creation is our illusion. Nothing is created, nothing is destroyed. Whatever we percieve as happening in the world is not really happening. It is like Balarama's dream. This is Maya. What is really happening is a play of atoms, or, if you go even deeper, it is only a disturbance in quantum mesh that pervades and constitutes the whole universe.

There is no purpose in the world. The illusions create their own purpose. One starts preaching to people, the other starts killing people. Some are mad after sex, some are mad after money, some are mad after fame, some are mad after power. Brahman is not involved in all this. At the end of their lives, all illusions fare the same way, they disappear into Brahman. You keep dividing things, ajeeva, jeeva, Ishwar, Brahman and what not, shreshtha, shreshthatar, and shreshthatam. There are really no differences. It is always shreshthatam, because all have their origin in Brahman. You have a bheda-drishti, that is not what Sri Krishna advised. He said the knowledgeable see all things as same (vidya-vinaya-sampanne, brahmane gavi hastini; suni chaiva sva-pake cha, panditah sama-darsinah, Geeta 5.18).

Dear friend, you are so deep into ignorance that it will not be in my power to take you out from there. Only Sri Krishna's grace can save you.

Jai Sri Krishna, Saakaar or Niraakaar, it is all the same. Even Sri Krishna is for those who are under illusion. The reality is Brahman.
 

mahesh

Active Member
How many times can you filet a fish before you can see through the slices?

The mind will carry out this assigned task until you put a stop to it. It needs to stop. There is the danger of distraction off the path to pursue this mental activity of chasing one's tail. Lots of activity, but few results. Its not worth your time.

Do not be too concerned with names and numbers. This is still in the mind's realm. You must escape it's influence like a rocket escaping the earth's gravitational pull.

Only then, will you begin to adjust to the darkness. And only then can you orient yourself towards the light.

There are prescribed methods for attaining this awareness. It is a science, not a faith.

x


Firstly i dont eat filet o fish so i wouldnt know.

Secondly what i follow is a faith. My Darkness has disappeared due to the light shone on my inteligence by guru.
 

mahesh

Active Member
"That supreme abode of Mine is not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by fire or electricity. Those who reach it never return to this material world." Sun, moon, fire, electricity, are all our illusions. The abode of Brahman is neither bright nor dark (Neti, Neti). Those who understand this become Brahman, the world then is an illusion. What will one return to (after the illusions have dissolved)? There is no coming, no going. Brahman is always there constituting everything.

"If you were born handicapped and were tortured by parents and forced to eat mud and spat upon by society" The notion of suffering is that person's illusion, and to put such a person to extra pain is the torturer's illusion. A realized person would not think or act like that. He would understand that what he percieves also is Brahman. That is why Sankaracharya fell at the feet of the Chandala. That one is a man, that one is a woman, that one is handicapped, that there is a fish, that there is a dog, are all our illusions. What is there is just Brahman, the substrate, an energy.

I have already mentioned, creation is our illusion. Nothing is created, nothing is destroyed. Whatever we percieve as happening in the world is not really happening. It is like Balarama's dream. This is Maya. What is really happening is a play of atoms, or, if you go even deeper, it is only a disturbance in quantum mesh that pervades and constitutes the whole universe.

There is no purpose in the world. The illusions create their own purpose. One starts preaching to people, the other starts killing people. Some are mad after sex, some are mad after money, some are mad after fame, some are mad after power. Brahman is not involved in all this. At the end of their lives, all illusions fare the same way, they disappear into Brahman. You keep dividing things, ajeeva, jeeva, Ishwar, Brahman and what not, shreshtha, shreshthatar, and shreshthatam. There are really no differences. It is always shreshthatam, because all have their origin in Brahman. You have a bheda-drishti, that is not what Sri Krishna advised. He said the knowledgeable see all things as same (vidya-vinaya-sampanne, brahmane gavi hastini; suni chaiva sva-pake cha, panditah sama-darsinah, Geeta 5.18).

Dear friend, you are so deep into ignorance that it will not be in my power to take you out from there. Only Sri Krishna's grace can save you.

Jai Sri Krishna, Saakaar or Niraakaar, it is all the same. Even Sri Krishna is for those who are under illusion. The reality is Brahman.


Neti Neti means not this not this. Meaning that the scriptures cannot describe the greatness of Purshottam Narayan. Sun, moon etc are not illusions. They exist but when there time comes (parlay) they are destroyed. But not their respective deities.

Pain is not an illusion. It exists. The soul gets pain through the senses of the body because of its Karma. That is the answer. The answer of the Purans and Vedas make more sense than your barren answer. As why does illusion want to inflict pain othewise? What purpose does this serve? Shankar Acharaya fell at the feet of a chandaal because He knew that Govinda lives within this man as Sakshi as well. Bhaj Govindam Bhaj Govindam bhaj Govindam Moodhmahte.

Millions of universes are created and destroyed. According to you what purpose does what we perceive serve? Why do we see such an illusion? Why do we then have to go through this? You do not answer this question of mine. You state universe so you believe in a universe. You also state Maya so you believe in Maya. So why does such a Maya take birth or even exist? What is its purpose? You fail to answer this. Why are we in illusion like you say we are?


If there is no purpose then what is our aim? Why does the Brahman you describe to be serve no purpose? Also if there is no purpose and no Karma then according to you it’s justifiable to commit murder, rape, steal etc? There should be no punishment? Am I right? The Upanishads talk about the Shaktis of God just as Shrest, Shreshttar and Shreshtam. So they cannot be wrong. I would rather learn from them instead of you.


You have Avidhya and no absolute knowledge therefore you state what you do. Maya blinds you from doing what’s right for the soul. You will realise when you leave your body.
By the way the Adhyay 5.18 talks of all the various species of life in which the embodied atma or soul resides in. The variegated appearances of different species of life are due to prakriti or material nature not the atma. The compound word sama-darsinah meaning equal vision is how those in atma tattva or soul realisation regard all the atmas residing in unlimited bodies as being equal due to the atmas essential nature of being eternal and of being an infinitesimal part of the Supreme Lord Krishna who is Parbrahm.
You ‘cherry pick’ what you think may fit in with your philosophy and then you do anarth of arth. You are so deep in your way of thinking that it is beyond me to teach you otherwise. Hopefully Bhagwan puts you back on track before your life ends. Maybe He will show you one day which will make you realise for the rest of your days.
I pray to the Almighty Shri Krishna to do such. God bless.
Jay Swaminarayan
Jay Shri Krishna
Jay Sakaar Murti Purushottam Parbrahm Narayan who is the cause of Brahm worshipped by it and beyond it.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
When Pralaya comes, even the devas get dissolved in Brahman. That is what 'pralaya' means (laya - dissolving). There is no soul, and Brahman is not affected by pain. It is our illusion. Karma is important for the society, and for this life. After death, my atoms go to a million things, what will Karma attach to?

If you understand why Sankaracharya fell at the feet of the Chandala, then worship (because that is your way) the same in me. I bow to the Brahman in you and in Swami Sahajananda also.
Only Brahman exists, 'Ekameva Adviteeyam'. Govinda is both, the sakshi and the saksha. There is none other.

As I have already mentioned, Brahman has no purpose, no desire, it does not change, it does not create, it does not destroy. It is our own faulty perception which makes us think so. You do not have to go through this if you realize the truth.

Why we percieve the illusion is because of the limitations of our perception. We can see things at our scale. The microscopic world is too small for us though there is so much happening there. The macroscopic world is too large for us. We keep on finding new galaxies at the borders of the universe with more powerful telescopes which keep on extending all the time.

We can see only a small portion of the total spectrum of light, we can hear only a small portion of the spectrum of sound. Our mental facilities are also not able to understand the many dimensions of the universe. At the time we know only four, three coordinates and time; while science is talking about the possibility of eleven dimensions.

Since we have come to this earth as humans in a society, our purpose is that of the humans, that is to live a peaceful life in harmony with society and nature. The human society would not have survived if it was always murdering, raping, or stealing. It would have been extinct by now, not that it makes any difference to Brahman.

Humans have come to the world just about 1.5 lac years ago. Before that there were no humans for the rest of 4.5 billion years. The earth may still last for many more billion years, but it is not necessary that humans would always be there. Brahman does not care for individual species. They arise and disappear every day. The dinosours are no more, the woolly mammoths are extinct, and the sabre-toothed tiger has made its last kill. Ask your grandson or Penguin and other young people about them. Perhaps you do not know.
 

mahesh

Active Member
When Pralay comes the Universe merges with Mahatatva, Mahatatva merges unto Pradhan, Pradhan merges unto Prakruti Purush and prakruti Purush merges unto the supreme abode of Parbrahm Purushottam. The Jivas that have not got liberated merge into the womb of Maha Maya. This includes any Devas he have not been liberated. Brahm isn’t affected by pain but the Jiva is through the body and its senses according to the past Karmas. Karma attaches to you soul.

Govinda is the Karan and all that you see is the Karya. He is Parbrahm but your intelligence doesn’t let you see this. If there is no purpose for Brahman then why has all this happened? What’s the point of this so called illusion? Why does Brahman carry all this out?

We keep on finding new galaxies at the borders of the universe with more powerful telescopes which keep on extending all the time because this Brahmand (universe) is big. We can only see Mrutyulok and even then we cant go to the ends of it. That’s one Loka of 14 Lokas. So that’s more than 11 which Science talks of.


If Brahman isn’t affected then what does peaceful living in harmony with society serve? If one feels peace in raping and looting then he would have no trouble in going about to serve himself right? As according to you there is no karma. So its fine to hurt, kill, loot, rape etc. By the way, why should it matter if “we have come as humans” ? As a human according to you is Brahman, No maya, Parbrahm or Karma affects it so why does it serve a purpose? Why is it necessary for the human society to survive anyway if all is Brahman? If it doesn’t make a difference why do you mention it? So back to my question.. If there is no purpose then what is our aim? Why does the Brahman you describe to be serve no purpose? Also if there is no purpose and no Karma then according to you it’s justifiable to commit murder, rape, steal etc?

According to you what purpose does what we perceive serve? Why do we see such an illusion? Why do we then have to go through this? You do not answer this question of mine. You state universe so you believe in a universe. You also state Maya so you believe in Maya. So why does such a Maya take birth or even exist? What is its purpose? You fail to answer this. Why are we in illusion like you say we are?

Humans have been in this Brahmand for at least 155 trillion and 20 billion years. Many Mahakalps and Manvantars have passed. Here are 8.4 million species of life. There was Rakshas Jaati few ugas ago and they also do not exist. But what does that prove? As becoming extinct doesn’t mean that jivas are destroyed. What are you trying to state?
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Your theory is too contorted for me. 'When Pralay comes the Universe merges with Mahatatva, Mahatatva merges unto Pradhan, Pradhan merges unto Prakruti Purush and prakruti Purush merges unto the supreme abode of Parbrahm Purushottam'.

I would not trade it with my theory. Death - the body merges with the substrate, Brahman. Pralaya - when all things merge at the same time into Brahman. Science calls it the big-crunch, as opposed to the big-bang which started the universe. Some day science will realize that it is not so in reality. All this is illusion (Ma - not, ya - this).

Govinda is the karan, but there is no Karya. Just his existence is enough. That we see Karya is our illusion. What you think to be happening is not happening at all. Brahman does not do anything. What point an illusion can have? Naturally, it is pointless. Is there anything other than play of atoms, a disturbance in the universal quantum mesh? One day, humans will also disappear from the face of earth, Brahman will be manifested to the perciever in other forms.

I anticipate your question, if there are no humans, who would percieve? That is a wrong question. For the major part of the earth's history, there were no humans. Who percieved? The animals percieved. They also have perception, though it is different from human perception. But then, Brahman is not concerned with it being percieved or not. The illusion of universe is 14.5 billion years old, earth illusion came 4.5 billion years ago. Who percieved the universe for 10 billion years, probably none.

Mrutyuloka is a wrong term. The earth is Jeevan-loka as well as Mrutyu-loka for us. We do not know of any other. Living peacefully is not for Brahman. It would be least concerned if every one of the six billion humans break each other head. It is for us. Rest later, have to close the computer because of my grandson.
 

mahesh

Active Member
If you do not like the Vishtadvait Philosophy then fine. It is not my job to convert you into it. HAHA. But your view is barren and makes no sense. Yes this creation is the Karya of the Karan. Who is Parbbrahman Purshottam Bhagwan.

If Brahman isn’t affected then what does peaceful living in harmony with society serve? If one feels peace in raping and looting then he would have no trouble in going about to serve himself right? As according to you there is no karma. So its fine to hurt, kill, loot, rape etc. By the way, why should it matter if “we have come as humans” ? As a human according to you is Brahman, No maya, Parbrahm or Karma affects it so why does it serve a purpose? Why is it necessary for the human society to survive anyway if all is Brahman? If it doesn’t make a difference why do you mention it? So back to my question.. If there is no purpose then what is our aim? Why does the Brahman you describe to be serve no purpose? Also if there is no purpose and no Karma then according to you it’s justifiable to commit murder, rape, steal etc?

You have your own Barren views, fine. Follow them. The rest of the millions of followers of Purshottam Narayan are content in what the yfollow. Why do you worry over it? If they are happy in such way of worship then in your eyes all is Brahman anyway. You should already be content. So why do you seem so agitated?

You still fail to answer many of my questions however, whatever floats your boat, each to their own.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Mahesh, you are not hearing what Aupmanyav is saying. You're trying to make Physics/Reality conform to the rules familiar to you in this world.

You go on about "purpose," as if this were a necessary component of Reality; as if it were a yardstick to use in the assessment of Divine intention. It is not.

Purpose and intention are human constructs. They're useful tools in negotiating our own little 3-D world but have no place in Quantum or Relativity theory, ie: Reality.

You go on about time and history, about what is to come, about the purpose and impact of what went before.
Time is fine when you're talking about 3rd state perception, but, as we perceive it, has no place in metaphysics. The first few frames of a film do not cease to exist when the projector moves on to subsequent frames. Every event in the film exists simultaneously. Our inability to comprehend more than one at a time does not affect this reality. Everything that ever happened, is happening or will happen is happening Now , there is no past, no future. These are illusions. The wars, the injustice, the supernovae, the Avataras, the extinction of man -- all are/were/will be --simultaneously.

A "barren philosophy?" Are you judging facts by the degree of comfort or discomfort they engender?
Why would God create such misperception? Silly question. Why is a flatworm incapable of understanding the historical impact of the Code of Hammurabi? Why would you assume our perception should be unlimited? You assume we are exceptional -- paragons of Consciousness. We are not.

You ask why we should behave if our world is illusory; what purpose our rules of propriety serve.

We must live in the world we perceive. Like a pilot making a landing by instrument in the dead of night. The numbers and dials he relies in are not accurate representations of the reality without, they are abstractions which he must rely on due to his limited perception.
Likewise, the experience of the world delivered by out five senses is not an accurate representation of reality. They are abstractions, useful in steering through the branes, possibilities and energy fields that comprise Real Reality.

Making a definitive assessment of the world from our little 3-D cockpit is absurd. More so basing a meaningful, purposive, philosophy on this illusion.
 

mahesh

Active Member
To think that there is no place for a personal God (Ishvara) in Advaita Vedanta is a misunderstanding of the philosophy. Ishvara is, in an ultimate sense, described as "false" because Brahman appears as Ishvara only due to the curtain of Maya. However, just as the world is true in the pragmatic level, similarly, Ishvara is also pragmatically true. Just as the world is not absolutely false, Ishvara is also not absolutely false. He is the distributor of the fruits of one's Karma. In order to make the pragmatic life successful, it is very important to believe in God and worship him.

Life in the world can be divided into two groups Kshara and Akshara. Kshara refers to life with destructible bodies while Akshara have indestructible body.

In the pragmatic level, whenever we talk about Brahman, we are in fact talking about God. God is the highest knowledge theoretically possible in that level. Devotion (Bhakti) will cancel the effects of bad Karma and will make a person closer to the true knowledge by purifying his mind. Slowly, the difference between the worshipper and the worshipped decreases and upon true knowledge, liberation occurs.
 

mahesh

Active Member
Ishvara (denoted by Vishnu-Narayana) is the Supreme Cosmic Spirit who maintains complete control over the Universe and all the sentient beings, which together also form the pan-organistic body of Ishvara. The triad of Ishvara along with the universe and the sentient beings is Brahman, which signifies the completeness of existence. Ishvara is Parabrahman endowed with innumerable auspicious qualities (Kalyana Gunas). Ishvara is perfect, omniscient, omnipresent, incorporeal, independent, creator of the universe, its active ruler and also the eventual destroyer. He is causeless, eternal and unchangeable — and is yet the material and the efficient cause of the universe and sentient beings. He is both immanent (like whiteness in milk) and transcendent (like a watch-maker independent of a watch). He is the subject of worship. He is the basis of morality and giver of the fruits of one's Karma. He rules the world with His Māyā — His divine power.
Ishvara is considered to have a 2-fold characteristic: he is the indweller of all beings and all beings also reside in Ishvara.

[edit] Antarvyāpi

When Ishvara is thought of as the indweller of all beings, he is referred to as the paramātmān, or the innermost self of all beings. Ishvara is also the self for the non-conscious Universe.
He who inhabits water, yet is within water, whom water does not know, whose body water is and who controls water from within—He is your Self, the Inner Controller, the Immortal.
He who inhabits the sun, yet is within the sun, whom the sun does not know, whose body the sun is and who controls the sun from within—He is your Self, the Inner Controller, the Immortal - Brihadaranyaka Upanishad 3.7.4-14

[edit] Bahurvyāpi

When Ishvara is thought of as the all encomposing and the residence of all beings i.e. all beings reside in Ishvara, he is referred to as the paramapurusha. The sentient beings and the insentient universe which form part of the pan-organistic body of Ishvara are encapsulated by Ishvara.
Sarvam kalv idam Brahma Chandogya Upanishad
Isavasyam idam sarvam Isa Upanishad

[edit] Chit

Chit is the world of sentient beings, or of entities possessing consciousness. It is similar to the Purusha of Samkhya system. The sentient beings are called Jīvās and they are possessors of individual consciousness as denoted by "I". The scope of Chit refers to all beings with an "I" conscousness, or more specifically self-consciousness. Therefore all entities which are aware of their own individual existence are denoted as chit. This is called Dharmi-jnana or substantive consciousness. The sentient beings also possess varying levels of Dharma-bhuta-jnana or attributive consciousness
The jivas possess three different types of existence:
  • Nityas, or the eternally free Jivas who were never in Samsara
  • Muktas, or the Jivas that were once in Samsara but are free
  • Baddhas, or the Jivas which are still in Samsara
[edit] Achit

Achit is the world of insentient entities as denoted by matter or more specifically the non-conscious Universe. It is similar to the Prakriti of Samkhya system

[edit] Brahman

There is a subtle difference between Ishvara and Brahman. Ishvara is the substantive part of Brahman, while jivas and jagat are its modes (also secondary attributes), and kalyanagunas(auspicious attributes) are the primary attributes. The secondary attributes become manifested in the effect state when the world is differentiated by name and form. The kalyanagunas are eternally manifest.
Brahman is the description of Ishvara when comprehended in fullness i.e. a simultaneous vision of Ishvara with all his modes and attributes.
The relationship between Brahman and Jivas, Jagat is expressed by Rāmānujā in numerous ways. He calls this relationship as one of:
  • Sarira/Sariri (body/indweller);
  • Prakara/Prakari (attribute or mode/substance);
  • Sesha/Seshi (Owned/owner);
  • Amsa/Amsi (part/whole);
  • Adharadeya/Sambandha (supporter/supported);
  • Niyamya/Niyanta (controlled/controller);
  • Rasksya/Raksaka (redeemed/redeemer);
These relationships can be experienced holding Brahman as the father, son, mother, sister, wife, husband, friend, lover and lord. Hence, Brahman is a personal being.
  • What does Nirguna Brahman mean?
Ramanuja argues vehemently against understanding Brahman as one without attributes. Brahman is Nirguna in the sense that impure qualities do not touch it. He provides three valid reasons for staking such a claim:
Sruti/ Sabda Pramana: All sruti and sabda's denoting Brahman always list either attributes inherent to Brahman or not inherent to Brahman. The Sruti's only seek to deny Brahman from possessing impure and defective qualities which affect the world of beings. There is evidence in the Sruti's to this regard. The Sruti's proclaim Brahman to be beyond the tri-gunas which are observed. However, Brahman possess infinite number of transcendental attributes, the evidence of which is given in vakhyas like "satyam jnanam anantam Brahma"
Pratyaksha Pramana: Ramanuja states that "a contentless cognition is impossible". And all cognition must necessarily involve knowing Brahman through the attributes of Brahman.
Anumana Pramana: Ramanuja states that "Nirgunatva" itself becomes an attribute of Brahman on account of the uniqueness of no other entity being Nirguna.
 

mahesh

Active Member
Theory of Existence

VishishtAdvaita adheres to a system of complete reality. The three ontological entities i.e. Ishvara, Chit and Achit are fundamentally real. It upholds the doctrine of Satkaryavada as against Asatkaryavada.
Briefly,
  • Satkaryavada is pre-existence of the effect in the cause. It maintains that karya (effect) is sat or real. It is present in the karana (cause) in a potential form, even before its manifestation.
  • Asatkaryavada is non-existence of the effect in the cause. It maintains that karya (effect) is asat or unreal until it comes into being. Every effect, then, is a new beginning and is not born out of cause.
More specifically, the effect is a modification of what exists in the cause and doesnot involve new entities coming into existence. This is called as parinamavada or evolution of effect from the cause. This doctrine is common to the Samkhya system and VishishtAdvaita system. The Samkhya system adheres to Prakriti-Parinama vada whereas Vishishtadvaita is a modified form of Brahma-Parinama vada.

[edit] Kārya and kāraṇa

The kāraṇa (cause) and kārya (effect) in Vishishtadvaita is different form other systems of Indian Philosophy. Brahman is both the kāraṇa(cause) and the kārya(effect). Brahman as the cause does not become the Universe as the effect.
Brahman is assigned two kāraṇatvas (ways of being the cause):
  1. Nimitta kāraṇatva — Being the Efficient/ Instrumental cause. For example, a goldsmith is assigned Nimitta kāraṇatva as he acts as the maker of jewellery and thus becomes the jewellery's Instrumental cause.
  1. Upādāna kāraṇatva — Being the material cause. For example, the gold is assigned Upādāna kāraṇatva as it acts as the material of the jewellery and thus becomes the jewellery's material cause.
The Universe and Sentients always exist, much like Brahman. However, they undergo transformation. They begin from a subtle state and undergo transformation. The subtle state is called a causal state, while the transformed state is called the effect state. The causal state is when Brahman is internally not distinguishable by name and form. The effect state is when the internal distinction becomes pronounced.
It can be said that Vishishtadvaita follows Brahma-Prakara-Parinama Vada. That is to say, it is the modes (Jivas and Jagath) of Brahman which is under evolution. The cause and effect only refer to the pan-organistic body transformation. Brahman as the Universal Self is unchanging and eternal.
Brahman having the subtle (sūkshma) chit and achit entities as his Saareeram/Prakaaram(body/mode) before manifestation is the same Brahman having the expanded (stūla) chit and achit entities as Saareeram/Prakaaram(body/mode) after manifestation.
The essential feature is that the underlying entity is the same, the changes are in the description of that entity.
For eg. Jack was a baby. Jack was a small kid. Jack was a middle-aged person. Jack was an old man. Jack is dead
The body of a single personality named Jack is described as continuously changing. Jack doesnot become "James" because of the change.

[edit] Ethics

Souls and Matter are only the body of God. Creation is a real act of God. It is the expansion of intelligence. Matter is fundamentally real and undergoes real revelation. The Soul is a higher mode than Matter, because it is conscious. It is also eternally real and eternally distinct. Final release, that comes, by the Lord's Grace, after the death of the body is a Communion with God. This philosophy believes in liberation through one's Karmas (actions) in accordiance with the Vedas, the Varna (caste or class) system and the four Ashramas (stages of life), along with intense devotion to Vishnu. Individual Souls retain their separate identities even after moksha. They live in Fellowship with God either serving Him or meditating on Him. The philosophy of this school is SriVaishnavism, a branch of Vaishnavism.

[edit] Interpretation of Mahāvākyas

All Vedantic schools need to substantiate the meaning espoused by Mahāvākyas which occur throughout Upanishadic literature. The interpretation of these Grand Pronouncements serve as the cornerstone for establishing each school of thought. The most significant among them is:
1. sarvam khalv idam brahma from Chandogya Upanishad 3.14.1Translated literally, this means All this is Brahman. The ontology of Vishishtadvaita system consists of:
1. Ishvara is Para-brahman with infinite superlative qualities, whose substantive nature imparts the existence to the modes
2. Jivas are chit-brahman or sentient beings (which possess consciousness). They are the modes of Brahman which show consciousness.
3. Jagat is achit-brahman or matter/Universe (which are non-conscious). They are the mode of Brahman which are not conscious.
Brahman is the composite whole of the triad consisting of Ishvara along with his modes i.e. Jivas and Jagat. Hence, "all this is Brahman" denotes the triad of entities.
2. ayam ātmā brahma from Mandukya Upanishad 1.2Translated literally, this means the Self is Brahman. From the earlier statement, it follows that on account of everything being Brahman, the self is not different from Brahman.
3. Tat tvam asi from Chandogya Upanishad 6.8.7Translated literally, it means Thou art that
that here refers to Brahman and thou refers to jiva
The vākya establishes the identity of the jiva and Brahman. The issue here is if the identity involves establishing a unique identity or a universal identity. The difference is as follows:
1. Unique Identity:
Atman is Brahman; Nothing else is Brahman; Brahman is reality and therefore everything else is illusion
2. Universal Identity:
Atman is Brahman in the same way as everything else is Brahman.
Rāmānujā chooses to take the position of universal identity. He interprets this passage to mean the subsistence of all attributes in a common underlying substratum. This is referred to as samānādhikaranya. Thus Rāmānujā says the purport of the passage is to show the unity of all beings in a common base. Ishvara (Parabrahman) who is the Cosmic Spirit for the pan-organistic body consisting of the Universe and sentient beings, is also simultaneously the innermost self (Atmān) for each individual sentient being (Jīvā). All the bodies, the Cosmic and the individual, are held in an adjectival relationship (aprthak-siddhi) in the one Isvara.
Tat Tvam Asi declares that oneness of Isvara.
When multiple entities point to a single object, the relationship is established as one of substance and its attributes.
For eg. in a statement:
Jack is a tall and intelligent boy
The descriptors tall-ness,intelligence and boy-ness all refer to a common underlying Jack
Similarly, when the upanishads declare Brahman is the Universe, Purusha, Self, Prana, Vayu, and so on, the entities are attributes or modes of Brahman.
If the statement tat tvam asi is taken to mean as only the self is brahman, then sarvam khalv idam brahma will not make sense.



[edit] Understanding Neti-Neti

This is an upanishadic concept which is employed while attempting to know Brahman. The purport of this exercise is understood in many different ways and also influences the understaning of Brahman. In the overall sense, this phrase is accepted to refer to the indescribable nature of Brahman who is beyond all rationalisations. All descriptions of such an entity will necessarily have to be partial or fall short of the actual.
The typical interpretation of Neti-Neti is not this, not this or neither this, nor that. In VisishtAdvaita, the phrase is taken in the sense of not just this, not just this or not just this, not just that. This means that Brahman cannot be restricted to one specific or a few specific descriptions. Consequently, Brahman is understood to possess infinite qualities and each of these qualities are infinite in extent.
 

mahesh

Active Member
[edit] Purpose of Human Existence

The purpose or goal of human existence is called as PurushArtha. According to the Vedas, there are four goals namely Artha (wealth), kAma (pleasure), Dharma (righteousness) and Moksha (permanent freedom from worldly bondage). According to this philosophy, the first three goals are not an end by themselves but need to be pursued with the ideal of attaining Moksha.

[edit] Moksha

Moksha is a state where the jiva achieves one-ness with Brahman in terms of all knowership and possessing qualities free from all wordly evils and defects. The jiva however doesnot possess the power to manifest/create and unmanifest/destroy. Neither does it have the power to grant Moksha.
The union of Atman and Brahman is likened to a situation where tiny lamps come under the blaze of the Sun. The lamp and Sun are still identifiable as different sources of light and yet the light arising from them is indistinguishable.
Moksha doesnot involve destruction of the self ("I") consciousness of the jiva.

[edit] Comparison with Western Non-dualism

Baruch Spinoza, the 17th century rationalist philosopher, in his magnum work Ethics establishes the nature of GOD. Spinoza's pan-organistic God (i.e. God revealed as orderly nature) is comparable to Brahman (having the individual selves' and Universe as its body)
Spinoza makes the following propositions on the nature of God, in his work "Ethics". These positions closely reflect the VishistAdvaitic position on the nature of Brahman:
PROPOSITION XI. God, or substance consisting of infinite attributes, of which each expresses eternal and infinite essentiality, necessarily exists.
PROPOSITION XV. Whatsoever is, is in God, and without God nothing can be, or be conceived.
PROPOSITION XVII. God acts solely by the laws of his own nature and is not constrained by anyone.
PROPOSITION XVIII. God is the indwelling and not the transient cause of all things.
PROPOSITION XIX. God and all the attributes of God are eternal.
PROPOSITION XXX. Intellect, in function finite, or in function infinite, must comprehend the attributes of God and the modifications of God, and nothing else.

[edit] VisishtAdvaita and Sri Vaishnavism

The Absolute Supreme Reality referred to as Brahman, is a Transcendent Personality with infinite superlative qualities. He is Narayana, also known as Lord Vishnu. He is also the other two members of the Trimurti, namely, Creator Brahma and Shiva, the Lord of Deluge.
A man who has discrimination for his charioteer and holds the reins of the mind firmly, reaches the end of the road; and that is the supreme position of Vishnu. - 1.3.9 Katha Upanishad
Beyond the senses are the objects; beyond the objects is the mind; beyond the mind, the intellect; beyond the intellect, the Great Atman; beyond the Great Atman, the Unmanifest; beyond the Unmanifest, the Purusha. Beyond the Purusha there is nothing: this is the end, the Supreme Goal.- 1.3.10,11 Katha Upanishad
In terms of theology, Ramanujacharya puts forth the view that both the Supreme Goddess Lakshmi and Supreme God Narayana together constitute Brahman - the Absolute. Sri Lakshmi is the female personification of Brahman and Narayana is the male personification of Brahman, but they are both inseparable, co-eternal, co-absolute and are always substantially one. Thus, in reference to these dual aspects of Brahman, the Supreme is referred to in the Sri Vaishnava Sampradaya as Sriman Narayana.

[edit] Conclusion

Vishishtadvaita conclusions may be briefly summarised as below.
Narayana is the Absolute God. The Soul and the Universe are only parts of this Absolute and hence, Vishishtadvaita is panentheistic. The relationship of God to the Soul and the Universe is like the relationship of the Soul of Man to the body of Man. Individual souls are only parts of Brahman. God, Soul and Universe together form an inseparable unity which is one and has no second. This is the non-duality part. Matter and Souls inhere in that Ultimate Reality as attributes to a substance. This is the qualification part of the non-duality.
Vishishtadvaita philosophy provided the philosophical basis for the establishment of Sri Vaishnavism and gave Vedantic backing to the brimming devotion of the Alwar saints and their composition of wonderful poetry and devotional songs in praise of Lord Vishnu. The succession of great Master-Expositors and spiritual giants of Vishishtadvaita school starts with the twelve Alwars, who left behind an imperishable legacy of Tamil devotional poetry in the form of 4000 songs, now called the Nalayira divya prabandham.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Mahesh, you obfuscate the issue with your effusive rhetoric. Can you give a short, concise summary of your position?

I am not saying there is no place for a personal God in religion. I'm saying that such a God is a tool, a means to an end, and will be discarded as the individual aspirant moves beyond it.
 

mahesh

Active Member
THERE IS MUCH MORE. bUT YOUR KNOWLEDGE DOES NOT GO AS FAR AS TO SEE THE ETERNAL TRUTH.

ALL THAT YOU STATED ABOVE.. WE ARE JIVAS. THERE ARE FOUR OTHER ETERNAL ENTITIES TOO. YOU FAIL TO SEE THEM UNDER YOUR MISGUIDED PHILOSOPHY.

BY THE WAY BRAHMA IS ALSO REFERRED TO PARBRAHM PURSHOTTAM NARAYAN. BECAUSE BRAHM IS PARTIALLY PARBRAHM. Brahman is a partial representation of Parbrahman. But when one comes to understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead (vAsudevaH sarvam iti), when one realises that Vasudeva is both Paramatma PArbrahman and the impersonal Brahman, they are then in perfect knowledge.This is absolute knowledge.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
There are as many Eternal Entities as you choose to create, Mahesh: Four, fourty-four, four hundred four... or a fourth. We create our own Pantheon.

From the Brihadaryanyaka Upanishad:

"Then Vidaghdha, the son of Shakala, asked him: How many Gods are there, Yajnavalkya?"
Yajnavalkya ascertained the number [the group of mantras known as} the Nivid, and said: "As many as are mentioned in the Nivid of the Vishve-Devas --- three hundred three, and three thousand three."

"Very good" said Shakalya, and asked again: "How many Gods are there, Yajnavalkya?"
"Thirty-three."

"Very good" said Shakalya, and asked again: "How many Gods are there, Yajnavalkya?"
"Six."

"Very good" ... "How many Gods are there, Yajnavalkya?"
"Three."

"Very good" ... "How many Gods are there, Yajnavalkya?"
"Two."

"Very good." ... "How many Gods are there, Yajnavalkya?"
"One and a half."

"Very good ... How many Gods are there, Yajnavalkya?"
"One."
 

mahesh

Active Member
YAgnavalya there is talking about the Devtas (Ishwars) of which there are 33 crore. (Tentris Karroram Devam). So your post doesnt mean anything. YAgnavalkya is not talking about the eternal entities through the nivid.
 
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