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Verifiable evidence for creationism?

Is there any verifiable evidence for creationism?

  • Yes

    Votes: 20 19.0%
  • No

    Votes: 85 81.0%

  • Total voters
    105

gnostic

The Lost One
Believe something without evidence? It's called worldview, opinion, philosophy or religion (faith) so not everyone is foolish. Do you believe in aliens, transitional fossils, multiverses, dark matter, universe from invisible particles, man came from apes, abiogenesis, the universe is primed for life and the rest of evolution? I would label that FOOLISH.
And you don't believe creation of the world in 6 days, global flood, talking serpent or talking donkey, the Tower of Babel episode, or the exorcism of demon possessions, etc, to be not foolish?

You have no evidences for any of the stuffs I have listed above, so why are beliefs or opinions of them not foolish?

And by the way, we cannot see a lot of things, James, like a single hydrogen atom, and yet we can see it with device, and see what affect it may have, only means they are too small for our eyes to see, not that they are invisible. Our eyes certainly can't see electrons and protons, doesn't make these particles invisible.

When you look up in the night sky, you can Andromeda Galaxy, which is 2 million light years away from Earth, and yet we cannot see every individual stars within this galaxy. Those that mean those stars are invisible, or simply too distant for the naked eye to distinguish individual stars?

No, James, I think it foolish to think that the we only can observe anything without aids of some devices (eg telescopes or microscopes, multimeters) as being invisible.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
I think it is foolish to pick the bones of the dead....trying to speak of the living
and it more foolish to speak of the living as doomed to death
 

Zosimus

Active Member
My contention is that certainty, at this point in human understanding, as to whether God initiated the big bang is not possible due to a lack of evidence. This is true because we don't know nearly enough about what happened before time, as we know it, began or even that the BB was the starting point.
Yet belief in the Big Bang requires circular logic. There is no reason to believe that there was a big bang.
 

Zosimus

Active Member
Solipsism has no predictive power, it can never have it. In order to have predictive power there must be a predication followed by either verification or falsification of that which was predicted. Fgure out what the terms you are using mean before you jump the shark. You confused predictive power with explanatory power
Your answer ignores the problem of contrastive underdetermination. If you're not familiar, I suggest this video as a starting point.


No since theory is not a term used for solipsism. You play loose with your terms in order to create flawed arguments. Try again
Surely you meant loosely. Nevertheless, solipsism is a theory.

I do not hold with parsimony as complex answers can be correct rather than a simple answer
Then why are you arguing with me about it?

Again you play loose with your terms then demand people ignore what the term means in context. Try again.
Assumes facts not in evidence.

Both your argument and the one you responded to are flawed as parsimony. I have no need to follow an arguments which are flawed nor the respond to it following the same line of thought. Im just pointing out the arguments fails for both cases since the principle can never grant any probability for any case involved nor should it be relied upon for a conclusion
I have no idea what you mean by this. Do you mean to say that the arguments in question are as flawed as parsimony? Or what?
 

james bond

Well-Known Member
There are myriads of "transitional fossils", man did not come from apes per se since both have evolved, and there is at least some evidence for dark matter.

At least, you're not fooled by men from apes claims. The other so-called transitional fossils are downright sketchy, as well. What TF do you believe in? What is the evidence of dark matter? The belief in TF is based on faith.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
At least, you're not fooled by men from apes claims. The other so-called transitional fossils are downright sketchy, as well. What TF do you believe in? What is the evidence of dark matter? The belief in TF is based on faith.
All fossils are "transitional fossils" unless the species dead-ended with that particular fossil. You and I are "transitional forms" since there's no indication that evolution has come to a halt.

So, one does not "believe in" transitional fossils any more than one "believes" Earth has a moon-- either one accepts the reality or they don't. Contrary to what you wrote above, it is not based on "faith".

The evidence of dark energy is mathematically based on formulas far too complex for this guy to understand, but mathematics is still classified scientifically as being evidence. IOW, math works.
 

james bond

Well-Known Member
I believe in the Theory of Evolution due to the plethora of verifiable evidence that supports it. I believe in my worldview because of the evidence I have come across throughout my experience in life. My philosophy is based on the experiences of myself and others who have come before me (historians, philosophers, teachers, leaders, etc.), which can certainly be considered to be evidence. I believe in Dark Matter because there is certainly evidence that supports the conclusion it exists.

If you are under the misconception that evidence requires certainty or only refers to empirical evidence, that is on you. There are many different forms of evidence and reasoning.

They only led you to believe ToE. Everyone is entitled to their own worldview and have their own worldview even if it wrong. Sorry, this thread demonstrates that your worldview is not based on the many "different forms of evidence and reasoning" as you claim. By the same evidence and reasoning, I came to the conclusion the creation scientists and Bible are the ones who are right. I compared and then decided instead of just getting the evolution.berkeley.edu side. If you listen to only the evo scientists, then they lead you to believe in ToE.
 

Zosimus

Active Member
Are you confusing supported with confirmed with a certainty?
No, I'm pointing out that logical fallacies don't confirm anything.

Given theory T and observations O such that T implies O:

T=>O
O
Therefore, T

is a logical fallacy. Thus we see that theories can never be supported with data. The best you can hope for is that the data falsify competing theories.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
They only led you to believe ToE. Everyone is entitled to their own worldview and have their own worldview even if it wrong. Sorry, this thread demonstrates that your worldview is not based on the many "different forms of evidence and reasoning" as you claim. By the same evidence and reasoning, I came to the conclusion the creation scientists and Bible are the ones who are right. I compared and then decided instead of just getting the evolution.berkeley.edu side. If you listen to only the evo scientists, then they lead you to believe in ToE.
I've considered and explored creationism and creation scientists, and I haven't seen any plausible evidence that supports their claims. Mainly they seem to start with the conclusion that the Bible is accurate and spend a great deal of time trying, unsuccessfully in my opinion, to discredit the ToE. They fail to come up with independent verifiable evidence that supports their theory.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
No, I'm pointing out that logical fallacies don't confirm anything.

Given theory T and observations O such that T implies O:

T=>O
O
Therefore, T

is a logical fallacy. Thus we see that theories can never be supported with data. The best you can hope for is that the data falsify competing theories.
This is not true. You merely start with a hypothesis and perform experiments, look for evidence. Then you compile the results to support your hypothesis. Your logic false.
 

james bond

Well-Known Member
So then you realize that there is no quote mining by evolutionists here?

Stop saying “atheist scientists”. You are on the borderline of strawmanning evolution as being atheistic once again.

The original hip fossil was crushed and thus was not an accurate representation of its original shape. The reshaping was not done to the fossil but rather a copy made of it in an attempt to understand its real shape. There are only so many ways that bone fragments could be put back together. But what’s more compelling is that we have multiple fossils of Australopithecus. Lucy is not the only one with a hip joint present. See these fossils of Australopithecus sediba:
sediba1.jpg

Pelvis_MH2_Australopithecus_sediba.jpg

Australopithecus_sediba_and_Lucy.jpg

In the bottom-most picture, the center fossil is Lucy and the other two are A. sediba. The brown pieces represent the actual fossil remains. As you can see, the right hip joint and upper right femur are preserved in one specimen, and are definitely more similar to that of humans (which are broad and short) than to chimps (which are elongated). Below is a fossil of the pelvis of A. africanus
C0156919-Australopithecus_africanus_pelvis%2C_STS-14-SPL.jpg


With all of these hips and knees there is plenty of evidence supporting the idea of Australopithecines walking upright at least part of the time. The location of the foramen magnum in the Taung child suggested bipedal location as well. A metatarsal revealed arched feet, another feature found in humans that is an adaptation for bipedal walking.

The majority of the left femur and the upper part of the right tibia of Lucy’s skeleton were found. These taken together make it easy to know what Lucy’s knee joint looked like. This would have allowed direct comparison with the 1973 knee, allowing scientists to know that it also belonged to an Australopithecus. It’s also interesting to note that a knee joint is present in one of the A. sediba fossils that I posted above. So we are hardly ignorant about the knees of the Australopithecines.

You are correct. So far as I can tell, Neanderthals were once thought to be much more primitive than we now know them to be. Today we know that they were very similar to other ancient humans.

It most certainly is a mutation. I’ve found the scientific paper describing it. Here is a link if you want to see it for yourself. The mutation is a single nucleotide replacement; a guanine to thymine change. This results in an amino acid change from glycine to valine in the produced LRP5 protein. The total number of nucleotides is not changed nor is the total number of amino acids, so the total information content of the genome is the same.

This is, again, unevidenced. Please demonstrate that human bones were once unbreakable.


I know that our bones were more dense in the past, but they weren’t unbreakable. There’s an important difference there. This mutation doesn’t make bones unbreakable either, just very hard.

It already is mutated. That’s why the bone density became higher to begin with.

Provide evidence that this mutation caused genetic information to be lost, preferably from some paper describing the mutation itself.

Correct.

Correct.

Correct.

Incorrect. Pseudomonas and E.coli have both gain new metabolic functions in the lab from mutations (nylon degradation and aerobic citrate respiration).

Every life form is a “new” life form, so I don’t know what you’re trying to say here.

I’m not sure where you got that idea. God is a spirit.

I don’t know what the relevance of this is. God has struck people dead in an instant before. Remember Ananias and Sapphira? King Herod? The man who touched the Ark of the Covenant? If He could strike them dead in an instant, then He could have done the same to all the sinners of Noah’s day and thus saved a lot of time, effort and suffering with that great flood.

What makes you say that? Because I don’t believe the six days mentioned in Genesis were literal days? You’ll find that many Christians don’t think of it as literal. My belief or non-belief is also irrelevant to your ability to answer my questions or refute my claims.

No they don’t. If they did, then they wouldn’t be atheists. They don’t believe there is a God to cause pain and suffering. Usually, atheists who say that are trying to argue that, if the God of the Bible did exist, He is not good. That’s a different argument.

I do read the Bible regularly. I’m in the process of reading it the whole way through (I’m currently in 2 Kings). I’m well aware of the creationist side of things because I was a young Earth creationist for the majority of my life (over 2 decades). I’ve only been an evolutionist for about 3 years.

It's interesting that you mention that website, as that very same website defines evolution here. The definition given is strictly biological, with no reference to the Big Bang, stellar evolution or abiogenesis.

Too much here to reply to as it will begat even more topics from you. Why don't we stick to a couple of topics that we can delve in more detail? Interesting you were a YEC and have read the Bible regularly. You've probably read more than me since I've been Christian since 2012.

I use the term "atheist" scientists because this is religious forums and my understanding is modern evolution, i.e. they will not accept God or the supernatural theories anymore, started from an atheist Scottish farmer named James Hatton around 1795. Hatton influenced another atheist, Charles Lyell, who in turn influenced Christian (at the time) Charles Darwin. Darwin eventually disavowed his religion. 50% of the scientists do not believe in a deity according to Pew. How about evo scientists? I'm willing to drop it if you can drop the strawmen, quote mining, red herring, etc. claims.

As for Lucy, you seem to be conceding that it was a chimpanzee and they added the knee found at another location. In a Nova episode, Dr. Owen Lovejoy reported that the anatomy of Lucy's hipbone was more like primate than human anatomy. He presumed that this was because the pelvic bone was damaged and reshaped a cast of the bone to give it a more human shape." Why do they presume that the chimp was like a human and then use the evidence to show evolution? The two facts above make Lucy sketchy. Can we eliminate Lucy now since you have moved on to Australopithecus?

Furthermore, can we can stick to Australopithecus, mutation and Christianity since the first two is what you're interested in and the latter what I'm interested in? I'll look over the new Australopithecus evidence and get back to you.

If you want to stick with biology, then it's fine with me. Agree its evolution, but not ToE -- http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/0_0_0/history_01 . So, you agree God created the universe? The Bible does not make limitations like that as Genesis describes everything including biological life. The ToE always had the other thinking behind it as Darwin had to explain the same matters brought up by other scientists like Lord Kelvin, creationists and the public alike. His evolutionary theories didn't have the time. Again, I willing to stick to biology, and I'll limit the Bible/Christianity to biological topics.

I'll check into "Pseudomonas and E.coli have both gain new metabolic functions in the lab from mutations (nylon degradation and aerobic citrate respiration)."



As for God is a spirit, that we are in agreement. So, why do you ask strawman questions about God and pretend you do not know?
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
No, I'm pointing out that logical fallacies don't confirm anything.

Given theory T and observations O such that T implies O:

T=>O
O
Therefore, T

is a logical fallacy. Thus we see that theories can never be supported with data. The best you can hope for is that the data falsify competing theories.
Here is the actual logic behind the scientific method:

The scientific method starts with a hypothesis. Then experimentation is conducted and evidence is collected. If there is sufficient evidence and that evidence confirms/supports that the hypothesis is accurate, that hypothesis becomes a scientific theory.

The scientific process does not aim to discredit alternative theories (although that can be a byproduct). It aims to confirm/support the accuracy of a hypothesis through repeated experimentations and observations. A scientific theory is one that is supported through repeated experimentation and observations.

So, your logic is severely flawed.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
As for Lucy, you seem to be conceding that it was a chimpanzee and they added the knee found at another location.

Furthermore, can we can stick to Australopithecus, mutation...
Lucy is clearly not a chimp but is an Australopithecus afarensis with roughly 40% of her skeleton found (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucy_(Australopithecus) , and the Australopithecine line contains many individuals over several million years (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australopithecine ).
 

james bond

Well-Known Member
And you don't believe creation of the world in 6 days, global flood, talking serpent or talking donkey, the Tower of Babel episode, or the exorcism of demon possessions, etc, to be not foolish?

You have no evidences for any of the stuffs I have listed above, so why are beliefs or opinions of them not foolish?

And by the way, we cannot see a lot of things, James, like a single hydrogen atom, and yet we can see it with device, and see what affect it may have, only means they are too small for our eyes to see, not that they are invisible. Our eyes certainly can't see electrons and protons, doesn't make these particles invisible.

When you look up in the night sky, you can Andromeda Galaxy, which is 2 million light years away from Earth, and yet we cannot see every individual stars within this galaxy. Those that mean those stars are invisible, or simply too distant for the naked eye to distinguish individual stars?

No, James, I think it foolish to think that the we only can observe anything without aids of some devices (eg telescopes or microscopes, multimeters) as being invisible.

I kept an open mind with God and the supernatural and compared it to science and found the God side more credible. Since you already call it foolish without examining the evidence, you already have a closed mind. I would think having a closed mind in more foolish.

Your "invisible" arguments are semantics. I won't argue semantics as it is just a waste of time.

The fine devices that you mention are tools made to help people. However, they do not prove the existence of aliens, for example. SETI has been in operation for years, but not one single shred of evidence of aliens, but atheist scientists claim we'll find them by 2035 based on the multi-million dollar telescopes and equiment. That's just as misleading and presumptuous claim as evolution. Creation scientists have the Fine Tuning Theory that disagrees.

The Andromeda Galaxy is not 2 million light years away. You aren't accounting for spacetime which has been proven. There are about 3000 visible stars and that is what the ancient astronomers believed of our universe.
 
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