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Verifiable evidence for creationism?

Is there any verifiable evidence for creationism?

  • Yes

    Votes: 20 19.0%
  • No

    Votes: 85 81.0%

  • Total voters
    105

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
The Bible is right in the first place because it had to. Why would Christians and other believers follow it if it was not true? Basically, the differences in pov is based on worldview, and only one side can be right. I like science, but science in regards to the Theory of Evolution is wrong.
I'm curious as to how you reconcile this in your brain. You like science. Great. So you probably like chemical biology, genetics, geology, paleontology, paleobotany, archaeology, biophysics, genomics, zoology, etc.? Evidence combined from many different fields of science all point to the theory of evolution being the best explanation we have for the diversity of life that we see on earth. So I wonder how you can "like science," which presumably includes those fields I've listed (plus many more), while at the same time also believe that "the science in regards to the Theory of Evolution is wrong."

As for the New Scientist cover, my link describes it as,

"Modern scientists and geneticists are now saying that representing evolutionary history as a tree is misleading. A more realistic way to represent the origins and inter-relatedness of species would be an “impenetrable thicket.”

Darwin himself also wrote about evolution and ecosystems as a “tangled bank.”

"We have no evidence at all that the tree of life is a reality," Eric Bapteste, an evolutionary biologist at the Pierre and Marie Curie University in Paris, told New Scientist magazine.

Genetic tests on bacteria, plants and animals increasingly reveal that different species crossbreed and form hybrids more than originally thought, meaning that instead of genes simply being passed down individual branches of the tree of life, they are also transferred between species on different evolutionary paths. The result is a messier and more tangled “web of life.”

The findings mean that to link species by Darwin's evolutionary branches is an oversimplification.

"The tree of life is being politely buried," said Michael Rose, an evolutionary biologist at the University of California, Irvine. "What's less accepted is that our whole fundamental view of biology needs to change."

It is interesting to note, too, that Darwin, evolution’s best-known advocate, when advancing his theory of evolution, had his own doubts about mankind’s origin and indicated an awareness of his theory’s limitations.

In his conclusion to The Origin of Species, he wrote of the grandeur of the “view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one,” thus making it evident that the subject of origins was open to further examination.

And Darwin conceded in Chapter 9 of his book that “the distinctness of specific [living] forms and their not being blended together by innumerable transitional links, is a very obvious difficulty.”

The author Graham Lawton is not even mentioned. I'll try to reply to your previous post next.
I don't know why you're going on about Charles Darwin.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
I find it interesting that at this point nine people have voted: "Yes, there is verifiable evidence for creationism."

Yet ... no one has presented any.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
The Bible is right in the first place because it had to. Why would Christians and other believers follow it if it was not true? Basically, the differences in pov is based on worldview, and only one side can be right. I like science, but science in regards to the Theory of Evolution is wrong.

They do not hold a literal interpretation of the Bible as you do. I know shocking isn't it.... Its as if you have never been exposed to other interpretations of the Bible outside of America Protestantism.

Have you heard of allegory or metaphor?
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
The Bible is right in the first place because it had to. Why would Christians and other believers follow it if it was not true? ...
Let's begin with the fact that that is a logical fallacy known as an argument from popularity. Then we need to reconcile your view with a similar held one with respect to every other religion on earth and each of their favorite books.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Last point first. I can see we are not going to agree. There is a difference in micro and macroevolution. There is no macroevolution. Microevolution is simply a change in gene frequency within a population. Macroevolution is above the species level. Macroevolution is evolution on a grand scale — what we see when we look at the over-arching history of life: stability, change, lineages arising, and extinction. Creation scientists do not think it exists.

So the Tree of Life has changed now into a thicket. Thus, Darwin was wrong about ToL. That part is now pseudoscience. CS stated from the beginning it is more an orchard. When will evolutionists state that the thicket is more an orchard?

I think you are agreeing that Darwin's competition-related hypothesis is dismissed even though you do not like the link.

We can discuss descent with modification from a single common ancestor next.
You make no case. You say the mainstream view is wrong. You describe the mainstream view is wrong. You quote mine. You misunderstand what Darwin and all subsequent biology says. Here's is a rather simplistic overview that may help you: http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/evoscales_01
I take it that, as is always the case with these threads, after 1300+ posts nobody has actually presented any verifiable evidence for creationism.

What a shock.

Isn't it funny, Sapiens & Kilgore Trout, that creationists dig their own holes in the sand, to stick their heads in?! :p

Ignorance is bliss, for creationists. And dishonesty is the most common trait for creationists, using misinformation, misdirection, propaganda.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
I think we agree on something here, Darwin wasn't wrong, he prophetically, correctly identified many potential flaws in the theory, long before they were borne out scientifically. As a good scientist does.

Rather the Darwinists were wrong, they were the ones who in contrast, dogmatically insisted the flaws didn't exist
For one, there is no such thing as Darwinists.

For another Natural Selection is still a working mechanism in biology that still very valid, but have had few errors corrected and amended by other biologists and have been updated because of the new technology and discovery of new evidences still support Natural Selection as one of five mechanisms.

Those newer mechanisms in evolution haven't replaced Natural Selection. So, Darwin is still largely correct.

Newton's theory of gravity and mechanisms, although outdated if you ever understand Einstein's theory on Relativity, some of his equations are still relevant and valid today for some applications, because not all objects are as large as stars or planets or galaxies, and not everything can move as fast or nearly as fast as the speed of light.

What I am saying that relativity hasn't completely replaced Newton's theory, just as other theories on evolutionary mechanisms haven't replaced Natural Selection.

The Natural Selection found in biology textbooks and taught in classrooms today, is an updated version to Darwin's original theory. That what you and other creationists can't seem to grasp, or worse don't want to understand.

And this why I don't see any merit in what creationists have to say, because (A) either they don't understand the theory (ignorance), or (B) they try to redirect and misinform people about what is or isn't science, (C) or both, they are being ignorant and dishonest at the same time.
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
By the same logic, the Quran is right in the first place, too. Why would Muslims follow it if it was not true?

Ciao

- viole
And science must be right as well. Otherwise, why would scientists follow it?

And atheism. Why do atheists follow it, unless it's true?
 

james bond

Well-Known Member
I don't think so.

What about it?

We already know that the Tree of Life or phylogeny is hypothesis. Otherwise, show me the evidence. Second, are you going to tell me that similar organisms will compete against each other for food and survival as Darwin theorized?
 

james bond

Well-Known Member
You make no case. You say the mainstream view is wrong. You describe the mainstream view is wrong. You quote mine. You misunderstand what Darwin and all subsequent biology says. Here's is a rather simplistic overview that may help you: http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/evoscales_01

I said Darwin was wrong about the Tree of Life. Evos now say it's more a thicket. I think biology states it is still hypotheses. After all, it is difficult to construct phylogenetic trees. Creation scientists state that life stems from independent phylogenetic trees.

"Most phylogenies therefore are hypotheses and are based on indirect evidence. Different phylogenies often emerge using the same evidence. Nevertheless, there is universal agreement that the tree of life is the result of organic descent from earlier ancestors and that true phylogenies are discoverable, at least in principle."

http://www.britannica.com/science/phylogeny

The last sentence is not universal "if" you are discussing only one tree. Creation scientists beg to differ, but probably their views are ignored.
 

james bond

Well-Known Member
I'm curious as to how you reconcile this in your brain. You like science. Great. So you probably like chemical biology, genetics, geology, paleontology, paleobotany, archaeology, biophysics, genomics, zoology, etc.? Evidence combined from many different fields of science all point to the theory of evolution being the best explanation we have for the diversity of life that we see on earth. So I wonder how you can "like science," which presumably includes those fields I've listed (plus many more), while at the same time also believe that "the science in regards to the Theory of Evolution is wrong."

It's the difference between truth and hypotheses. If I'm a student taking a test, then I have to go by what is being taught as the correct answer although it may not be the truth. Thus, the battle for education of our young minds makes it worthwhile.

I don't know why you're going on about Charles Darwin.

Darwin wasn't that great a scholar, nor was he that great. He was a salesman, probably was racist and maybe a plagiarist. Yet, he's made out to be the point man for evolution by the media and the general public. We can get rid of him just like pigeons and chess.
 

james bond

Well-Known Member
Let's begin with the fact that that is a logical fallacy known as an argument from popularity. Then we need to reconcile your view with a similar held one with respect to every other religion on earth and each of their favorite books.

I'm not saying it's popular like evolution. I am basing it on how science backs up the Bible. In the end, which is more correct? Creation scientists and evo scientists are battling it out. The war is not over by any means.
 

james bond

Well-Known Member
Isn't it funny, Sapiens & Kilgore Trout, that creationists dig their own holes in the sand, to stick their heads in?! :p

Ignorance is bliss, for creationists. And dishonesty is the most common trait for creationists, using misinformation, misdirection, propaganda.

Generally, I use facts, reasoning and historical truth. In this thread, it's creation science or science.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
The difference is science backs up the Bible. It was in that regards I was referring the logic.

My Muslim friend tells me that science backs the Quran, too.

And what do you mean with science backing the Bible? I do not a see a word about common descent and evolution in the Bible. I do not see anything about Neadenthalers, homo erectus, Homo habilis, etc. in the Bible, either. And I do not see any science backing a global flood 4,000 years ago (obviously). And I do not see any science backing up the idea that humans come from dust in their current form and shape (double obviously), Just to name a few.

Ciao

- viole
 
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Sapiens

Polymathematician
... Creation scientists state that life stems from independent phylogenetic trees.

"Most phylogenies therefore are hypotheses and are based on indirect evidence. Different phylogenies often emerge using the same evidence. Nevertheless, there is universal agreement that the tree of life is the result of organic descent from earlier ancestors and that true phylogenies are discoverable, at least in principle."
http://www.britannica.com/science/phylogeny

The last sentence is not universal "if" you are discussing only one tree. Creation scientists beg to differ, but probably their views are ignored.
But ... some phylogenies emerge that successfully integrate the different strands of evidence. Sure a phylogeny based solely on osteology (and that was where most of the issues lay) is open to interpretation and arguments like whether the basio-cranial circulation patterns are more conservative than dentition introduced a level of subjectivity that has now been removed through the synthesis of multiple evidentiary approaches. There is no evidence for multiple trees. That was the OP: "Is there any verifiable evidence for creationism?" You (and your eight fellow travelers) have failed to elucidate a single piece of evidence that rises above the stereotypical creationist argument from ignorance.
 
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SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Darwin wasn't that great a scholar, nor was he that great. He was a salesman, probably was racist and maybe a plagiarist. Yet, he's made out to be the point man for evolution by the media and the general public. We can get rid of him just like pigeons and chess.
In my experience, the people I commonly see bringing up Darwin are the people who don't accept evolution, rather than people who do accept evolution who tend to focus on the evidence instead.

I was hoping you would have responded to the first part of my post.
 
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