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Very Strong Evidence Against the Existence of the Supernatural

Akivah

Well-Known Member
I would like to make a post regarding the existence of supernatural deities. When discussing the existence of God with theists, particularly Abrahamic monotheists, the point is often raised that it is not possible for me to "disprove" the existence of the God of the Bible or Qu'ran, etc. While this is true, it is still very easy to illustrate why belief in such entities is absurd due to the extreme unlikelihood of their existence. Let's use a simple illustration with Santa Claus...

This is a silly post. You say you want to disprove the existence of the supernatural by saying that miracles don't work in accordance with the natural world. That's pretty much the definition of the word 'supernatural'. Miracles are supernatural because they are not in accordance with the natural.
 
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George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Any higher authority if one existed would certainly use grapes.

In those days they drank a lot of fermented beverages.

Not to mention that is really not what that passage in the bible is about in the first place.

This also doesn't sound monotheistic

"John 15:1-5King James Version (KJV)
15 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman."


"Monsters, Ghosts, and Gods: Why We Believe"

Monsters, Ghosts and Gods: Why We Believe
You went off on a wrong tangent in reply to my original comment: I actually do believe water can be turned into wine by forces and abilities not currently understood by science.

My comment had nothing to do with the Bible but was based on the purported miracles of modern time Indian/Hindu Holy Men and Avatars. I believe Jesus studied in the Himalayan region during his missing years and likely developed what are called Siddhis (paranormal abilities in western language). The wine comment I made was just because that was an example the person I was replying to used. Basically, I was saying I believe Holy Men do develop paranormal abilities.

My beliefs come from the quantity, quality and consistency of the evidence for the paranormal abilities of certain modern Holy Men.
 

shawn001

Well-Known Member
You went off on a wrong tangent in reply to my original comment: I actually do believe water can be turned into wine by forces and abilities not currently understood by science.

My comment had nothing to do with the Bible but was based on the purported miracles of modern time Indian/Hindu Holy Men and Avatars. I believe Jesus studied in the Himalayan region during his missing years and likely developed what are called Siddhis (paranormal abilities in western language). The wine comment I made was just because that was an example the person I was replying to used. Basically, I was saying I believe Holy Men do develop paranormal abilities.

My beliefs come from the quantity, quality and consistency of the evidence for the paranormal abilities of certain modern Holy Men.

Same comment on water into wine in general, you can't foment water no matter who you are, it's not possible.

"My comment had nothing to do with the Bible but was based on the purported miracles of modern time Indian/Hindu Holy Men and Avatars."

Is purported proof? Any real science to back it up, just curious.

I have read that he may have studied in India.

"paranormal abilities" Which are what exactly?

The Bible version wasn't to be taken literally, it was another parable.
.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Same comment on water into wine in general, you can't foment water no matter who you are, it's not possible.
Why do you think you know everything that is possible with paranormal abilities? Who knows if fermentation was even involved, it could just as well have been replacement of the water with wine through paranormal methods. I don't know.
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
how many people have ever witnessed a supernatural occurence?, none.

an intelligent creator would have to work within the bounds and limits of the universe. a creator would have to be an immaterial force in nature. existing immaterially.

The closest we come to the supernatural is non locality in physics.

perhaps there is a superseding force in nature, but it doesn't evidence itself to date.

dark energy may be a candidate for an intelligent force but nothing is known about it.
space itself expanded over 13 billion years, that sounds supernatural.

but magical happenings do not exist, why even argue it?
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
how many people have ever witnessed a supernatural occurence?, none.

img-raise-your-hand2.jpg


"ME! ME!........................One time I saw a two backed monster bouncing up and down on my parent's bed that told me to "Get the hell out of the room and close the door." I think it may have devoured our mail man because it sounded just like him.
And I know it was supernatural because my teacher even said so. I forget what she called it, but I remember its named started with an "F."

.
 
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Grandliseur

Well-Known Member
I would like to make a post regarding the existence of supernatural deities. When discussing the existence of God with theists, particularly Abrahamic monotheists, the point is often raised that it is not possible for me to "disprove" the existence of the God of the Bible or Qu'ran, etc. While this is true, it is still very easy to illustrate why belief in such entities is absurd due to the extreme unlikelihood of their existence. Let's use a simple illustration with Santa Claus. I would wager that most of us on this forum are in agreement that Santa Claus does not exist. But what is our evidence for the nonexistance of Santa Claus?

For me, the answer is simple, but let's take a moment to provide some reasons that the existence of Santa Claus is highly improbable, essentially to the point of certainty: He violates the laws of physics. It is physically impossible for reindeer to fly, and it is also physically impossible for a single human being to visit every household in the world on a single night. Additionally, it is physically impossible for a single bag on a small sleigh to hold all of the presents (presumably millions, if not billions) that Santa will be providing to children around the world. At best, even a very large bag could hold only a few dozen small presents, yet those who affirm the existence of Santa Claus insist that a single bag could hold millions upon millions of wrapped presents. Finally, an obese man (or any adult human being) cannot descend a chimney. At best, he could get his lower calf down the chimney before being forced to retreat. Yet those who affirm the existence of Santa believe that Santa, in all of his extreme obesity, is able to descend a chimney that is likely only a foot or so in diameter.

There are many other reasons that the existence of Santa Claus is extremely improbable, but, I think it is safe to state that I have provided enough that most reasonable people would concur that the evidence against Santa's existence is overwhelming.,

For the second portion of our illustration, I will be referring to the biblical god, with an emphasis on Jesus Christ in the New Testament. However, the same principles apply to Zeus, Allah, Horus, Krishna, Vishnu, etc., and the deities of any other religions which violate the laws of physics.

To start, we know that it is biologically impossible for a virgin to give birth, yet the New Testament claims that Mary violated this simple law of biology by giving birth without receiving sperm. We know that it is physically impossible for water to be transformed into wine, since the chemical compositions of water and wine are distinct. Yet, the New Testament claims that Jesus was able to perform this transformation, even though it violates the laws of physics and chemistry (and hence is physically impossible). Additionally, we know that it is physically impossible for a man (or any other organism larger than a small insect) to walk on the surface of water, yet the New Testament again claims that men were able to violate the laws of physics and walk on water. Additionally, we know that a man cannot die, and be buried, and then physically come back to life days later. Yet believers in the biblical god hold to this as well, even though it is common knowledge that such an action is physically impossible, and that in any other context, a claim such as this would be dismissed without second thought. These are just a few examples. In short, any deity that is alleged to perform miracles cannot exist in the same way that Santa Claus cannot exist, because "miracles" by definition are violations of the laws of physics, and hence, are physically impossible.

By the way, for those of you who swear that paranormal/supernatural events can take place, the James Randi foundation has a million dollar reward for you if you can demonstrate the existence of such a phenomenon. So far, no one has been able to claim this reward. It is doubtful that you will become the first.
You have obviously made your mind up. Thus, no discussion is going to profit either you, me or others on this.

However, let me make an observation that tickles my funny bone. Do doctors today have the ability to artificial inseminate a female, without her having sex, so that she becomes pregnant?! Obviously, there is nothing new here.

It is then fairly humorous to see how atheists deny that someone who (for the discussion) created all nature, man included, does not have the same and even much greater ability than a mere human doctor. Thus, your claim of this being physically impossible - is only from your personal perspective.

But, this discussion with evolutionists is really just not producing anything worthwhile in its pursuit. Enjoy your paradigm, no matter how much it disagrees on every level with mine.
 
I would like to make a post regarding the existence of supernatural deities. When discussing the existence of God with theists, particularly Abrahamic monotheists, the point is often raised that it is not possible for me to "disprove" the existence of the God of the Bible or Qu'ran, etc. While this is true, it is still very easy to illustrate why belief in such entities is absurd due to the extreme unlikelihood of their existence. Let's use a simple illustration with Santa Claus. I would wager that most of us on this forum are in agreement that Santa Claus does not exist. But what is our evidence for the nonexistance of Santa Claus?

For me, the answer is simple, but let's take a moment to provide some reasons that the existence of Santa Claus is highly improbable, essentially to the point of certainty: He violates the laws of physics. It is physically impossible for reindeer to fly, and it is also physically impossible for a single human being to visit every household in the world on a single night. Additionally, it is physically impossible for a single bag on a small sleigh to hold all of the presents (presumably millions, if not billions) that Santa will be providing to children around the world. At best, even a very large bag could hold only a few dozen small presents, yet those who affirm the existence of Santa Claus insist that a single bag could hold millions upon millions of wrapped presents. Finally, an obese man (or any adult human being) cannot descend a chimney. At best, he could get his lower calf down the chimney before being forced to retreat. Yet those who affirm the existence of Santa believe that Santa, in all of his extreme obesity, is able to descend a chimney that is likely only a foot or so in diameter.

There are many other reasons that the existence of Santa Claus is extremely improbable, but, I think it is safe to state that I have provided enough that most reasonable people would concur that the evidence against Santa's existence is overwhelming.,

For the second portion of our illustration, I will be referring to the biblical god, with an emphasis on Jesus Christ in the New Testament. However, the same principles apply to Zeus, Allah, Horus, Krishna, Vishnu, etc., and the deities of any other religions which violate the laws of physics.

To start, we know that it is biologically impossible for a virgin to give birth, yet the New Testament claims that Mary violated this simple law of biology by giving birth without receiving sperm. We know that it is physically impossible for water to be transformed into wine, since the chemical compositions of water and wine are distinct. Yet, the New Testament claims that Jesus was able to perform this transformation, even though it violates the laws of physics and chemistry (and hence is physically impossible). Additionally, we know that it is physically impossible for a man (or any other organism larger than a small insect) to walk on the surface of water, yet the New Testament again claims that men were able to violate the laws of physics and walk on water. Additionally, we know that a man cannot die, and be buried, and then physically come back to life days later. Yet believers in the biblical god hold to this as well, even though it is common knowledge that such an action is physically impossible, and that in any other context, a claim such as this would be dismissed without second thought. These are just a few examples. In short, any deity that is alleged to perform miracles cannot exist in the same way that Santa Claus cannot exist, because "miracles" by definition are violations of the laws of physics, and hence, are physically impossible.

By the way, for those of you who swear that paranormal/supernatural events can take place, the James Randi foundation has a million dollar reward for you if you can demonstrate the existence of such a phenomenon. So far, no one has been able to claim this reward. It is doubtful that you will become the first.


Strong case, but a waste of time. To those that navigate the word by reason, such a breakdown is unnecessary, and to those that do not, such a breakdown if futile.

You can not reason people away from beliefs they were not reasoned into.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
1) Define a "numinous" encounter. Many natural phenomena have been perceived to be supernatural prior to science being able to provide an explanation. For example, the ancients believed lightning was the work of a supernatural deity but now we understand that it is a natural phenomenon. So, any phenomenon claimed to be "numinous" may very well be a natural phenomenon. There is no way to prove that a phenomenon is supernatural, but there are many ways to prove that a phenomenon once thought to be supernatural is actually natural.

2) I'm glad we both can agree that Santa Claus is fictional--we know this because he violates the laws of physics. The same can be said of any deity that violates the laws of physics, at least beyond a reasonable doubt.

3) What prophecy are you talking about? If you want to discuss biblical prophesies, let's start with the failed prophecy of Jesus' return during the disciples' lifetimes in Matthew 16:27-28: "For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done. Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

4) How is the existence of this forum evidence that a deity exists? I fail to make any logical connection.....

1 - What do you mean? It sounds like you have a hope to disprove ALL phenomenons believed to be supernatural. Why?

2 - God can violate physics but not logic. God is the author of physics and we call His intervention here miracles.

3 - I've addressed this canard in detail elsewhere. What are the next immediate verses in this story?!

4 - The existence of people preaching religion and fighting religion on this forum are facts in evidence.
 

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
How many times has it happened when humans can't explain something, they come up with supernatural explanations? Anyone have an idea on the number of times?

Every day - countless times. Fortunately, we have other people who are trained and intelligent and actually work on coming up with actual explanations for things, so that we can move beyond our primitive, fearful, superstitious state. Well, at least some of us.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
You have obviously made your mind up. Thus, no discussion is going to profit either you, me or others on this.
Probably not because you have also made up your mind.

However, let me make an observation that tickles my funny bone. Do doctors today have the ability to artificial inseminate a female, without her having sex, so that she becomes pregnant?! Obviously, there is nothing new here.

It is then fairly humorous to see how atheists deny that someone who (for the discussion) created all nature, man included, does not have the same and even much greater ability than a mere human doctor. Thus, your claim of this being physically impossible - is only from your personal perspective.
Err, we have actual evidence that artificial insemination works. What we don't have is actual evidence that god exists. All we have are personal inferences.

And to compare assisting fertilization to creating human life without benefit of sperm and ovum is rather obtuse, don't you think? I do.

.
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
Problem is we don't know all the physics of the universe yet. Did you know science can only detect about 5% of the matter in the universe (the other 95% being undetectable (dark matter)). You might want to hold up on publishing your 'very strong evidence' until you understand more than a sliver of the universe.

Are you asserting that the abrahamic god is made up of dark matter? If so, provide evidence for your god of the gaps claim. If not, then the comment is irrelevant.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Are you asserting that the abrahamic god is made up of dark matter? If so, provide evidence for your god of the gaps claim. If not, then the comment is irrelevant.
WHAT? How does the conversation I was having have to do with the Abrahamic God being made of dark matter? The OP was about more than the Abrahamic God. And I am not even an Abrahamic.

Are you confusing me with another poster?
 

Grandliseur

Well-Known Member
Probably not because you have also made up your mind.


Err, we have actual evidence that artificial insemination works. What we don't have is actual evidence that god exists. All we have are personal inferences.

And to compare assisting fertilization to creating human life without benefit of sperm and ovum is rather obtuse, don't you think? I do.

.
Again! Waste of time.
The same old arguments that neither accept nor refuse to give up come back for one more round in the boxing arena: When I see a complicated machine, airplane, car such as Mercedes, or a computer, there is no discussion as to having actual evidence of someone making it - because it is right in front of my eyes. Thus, I have in just this one example, all the actual evidence I need to prove to me that God exists. You are now going to tell me that this example is old and that evolutionists already have a term for this kind of claim - justifying your disbelief in that manner.

The better thing to do here is to each have a cold beer and contemplate a beautiful sunset in silence. Me admiring God's handiwork and the cold beer on a hot day, and you perhaps just enjoying the beer and the view.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
When I see a complicated machine, airplane, car such as Mercedes, or a computer, there is no discussion as to having actual evidence of someone making it - because it is right in front of my eyes. Thus, I have in just this one example, all the actual evidence I need to prove to me that God exists.
Just as I said: personal inference. Thank you for the illustrative example. :thumbsup:

.
 

shawn001

Well-Known Member
Why do you think you know everything that is possible with paranormal abilities? Who knows if fermentation was even involved, it could just as well have been replacement of the water with wine through paranormal methods. I don't know.

"Why do you think you know everything that is possible with paranormal abilities?"

I didn't say the above, you did.

You only mentioned one to me and it's impossible. List anymore you want and we can look at their merits and evidence.

"it could just as well have been replacement of the water with wine through paranormal methods."

Slight of hand, a trick?

"I don't know."

Thanks for being Honest. :)
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
When I see a complicated machine, airplane, car such as Mercedes, or a computer, there is no discussion as to having actual evidence of someone making it - because it is right in front of my eyes. Thus, I have in just this one example, all the actual evidence I need to prove to me that God exists.
Evolution created us. Therefore you should conclude that Evolution is God. When you deny evolution, you deny knowledge of God.

You are now going to tell me that this example is old and that evolutionists already have a term for this kind of claim - justifying your disbelief in that manner.
For me, there is no disbelief in God. There is an acceptance of facts and seeing God within these.

The better thing to do here is to each have a cold beer and contemplate a beautiful sunset in silence. Me admiring God's handiwork and the cold beer on a hot day, and you perhaps just enjoying the beer and the view.
This is of course a great way to see God. Pondering the wonder of evolution is another way.
 
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