Video About Problems With Atheism

[Kilgore Trout]

Telling someone you think they are wrong on the internet is novel?

One small step for man...

You being wrong on the internet sure isn't.

 

[rabkauhallA]

What does "human psychopathic tendency is irrational" mean?

The radical atheists believe the human psychopathic tendency is irrational, how does their belief misguide them in thinking that pure rationality is a viable path forward?


What is "radical atheism"?

 

[rabkauhallA]

The whole psychopathic tendency is irrational statement I BELIEVE, means "radical atheists" like myself think those tendencies are irrational. Probably because it is. It's self destructive and unless one actually is a socio or psychopath, guilt, shame, and sorrow will follow you like a sinister shadow. People, whether religious or not, generally seek companionship and mutually beneficial relationships. Why would human nature just flip on its head if there were no god. I now live in Baptist-ville, and though fellow atheists aren't a dime a dozen like in Chicago, but there are some. They relate to people just like those who have legal signs warning of their absence when the rapture happens.

And I did watch the whole video. If it was edited for time, the digs at atheists were definitely left in.

Besides, if you NEED a god to keep you from being a predator... you might just be the radical one.

 

[Simurgh]

Oh goody, atheist bashing once again. We have no morals or ethics. Sure. Yet, you good little xtians base your civilization on Greek philosophy and the classical age. Even the most ignorant young earthers among you should realize that the foundation of western civ was NOT xtian, but pagan. Or do you want to do the Mormon thing and baptize them into the faith just so you can keep your illusions concerning your supposed moral superiority? Quoting Dostoyevsky; how relevant. Well, maybe it is, given that the StrumpET is president and all.

And then we move on to how great all that xtian moralizing is. Yeah, look at that for a fun video to watch.

or

I do like the woman’s take on laundry and god, but then the part about the word and the thing is priceless… ah hell, just watch the whole thing. It’s just too funny. Oh, excuse me; moral. It’s moral of course. Then again, being an atheist, I think it’s just funny.

http://listverse.com/2015/01/16/10-evangelist-preachers-who-fell-from-grace/ or how about that?

My personal favorite though is that when inmates discover I am an atheist they tell me I will go to hell for my immoral lifestyle and that it’s not too late to repent and find jesus. Yeah, that coming from a guy who is a serial rapist, or one who killed his mother because she wanted him to stop smoking weed long enough to take out the trash, or even the girl who went on to shoot an older couple to see what killing feels like, is really something that makes me want to convert right now.

I wonder what all those billion of people who aren’t xtians say to the assessment that they are immoral because they believe in some other divinity. Are we traipsing off to racist camp here? But seriously, if early—pre-xtian—people did not have a moral and an ethical compass and rules and norms by which they lived, we would not be overpopulating the world now. We would have killed each other off for an easy meal and a warmer fur.

What worries me more is why religious people need to constantly attack atheists about their own dubious morality. Why can’t you guys just bask in your glorious self-righteousness and leave us poor slobs to wallow in our own. So far, atheism has not been as destructive force as xtianity for example. Yet religious intolerance and arrogance has killed millions and causes irreparable harm especially to women, as the historical record shows clearly enough.

Anyhow, what kind of morality is that if the only reason you don’t do something is because you are afraid of the blood thirsty and capricious god your ancestors invented to keep their flowers in line. Furthermore, if first you claim superior morality and then act in an immoral manner, turn around and say that your god forgives you and I better do the same or burn in that ever so conveniently created hell your mind constructed, then you have a problem. I don’t I just do what is right because it is and need not fear anything. I am atheist. I can be moral and ethical just because I chose to.


…..and if you want a more realistic assessment of the bible and xtianity, look up William G. Dever, an eminent biblical archaeologist. At the beginning of every term and believe me, many of his students were shocked to hear that, he said: “… and do not forget that the bible was written by men, for men, about men.” He never lost sight of the origins of his chosen faiths.

 

[Searching1981]

OK, I am sober. It is 11:51 PST in California and I drink daily after 5PST.

What happened to this thread? I mention Hypercorrection and everyone begins to commit it all at once and now this conversation isn't about bonding and relating it, it is about your loop, your Cancer. I was even invited to Brazil...why would I go to that Hell Hole?

Let us go on track. Let me realign the conversation. I say, you atheists are the most moral, the most moral and for that I completely laugh at you. You take the worst of Christianity, this moral control, and make it your ideal. Like pouring the wine out in the gutter and just eating the worm. Why do you do that? What Fundamentalist told you, you were not moral? Why do you listen to them?

I will write to this professor and explain it to him: not all men and women are created equal, some people just have a body that is filled and prone to a Spiritual Cancer and their cure they feel is a dose of government made, FDA approved, Morality.

 

[icehorse]

Scientific progress is not connected to any given ideology. Science is value neutral.

Largely value neutral but not entirely. In the case of humanism, scientific progress lends credence to the idea that we can solve our own problems.

 

[icehorse]

I should have been more specific, we've never seen a modern moral viewpoint without Christian influence.

And modern automobiles were influenced by the steam engines that came before them.

ADA and @Augustus - I'm more than happy to acknowledge that in the past religion has sometimes had positives influences on today's best thinking. In the past. Time to move on, IMO.

 

[Augustus]

As for the answer: humanist values arise from observing the reality of human motivation, human behavior, and its consequences.

The way such things are interpreted depends on the existing value system of a society. It doesn't occur in a vacuum free of preexisting values.

Christianity at its best allows itself to do likewise and to incorporate those learnings into its own doctrine. So does any other doctrine, to the extent that they allow themselves some renewal and moral responsibility.

It is a 2 way process though: existing views influence the way we interact with the environment which feeds back into the existing views which adapt and evolve.

The point you start from is important though because of how it influences your perception and social interactions.

Education in Confucianism for example existed to tie one into the existing social order. Scientific pursuits were generally valued insofar as they contributed tangible benefits to this existing order rather than for some abstract concept of knowledge. Consequently there was no industrialisation as there was no room for an 'upstart' industrial class and there was no 'scientific revolution' despite their society being far wealthier and far more advanced than Europe for centuries.

Then I guess it falls to you to show why anyone would have to perceive humanism as the offspring of Christianity. It is a claim that comes out of thin air, far as I am concerned, and just as unjustified as that suggests.

Where and when it developed, where it gained popular acceptance, the fact that it hasn't developed organically anywhere else in the 200 years since it emerged in close to its current form, the significant overlap between aspects of the 2 belief systems, the fact that many of the areas that overlap are very rare in other belief systems, etc.

Christianity emerged as a product of its society after all, why wouldn't Humanism be a product of its society? Are any ideologies not a product of their society?

If all it takes is us observing the reality of human motivation, human behaviour, and its consequences why is it so rare in our long history?

Would you agree that some worldviews make it far more likely that an ideology like Humanism would develop while others make it far less likely?

The demographic success of Christianity in certain times and places does not entitle it to claim authorship of everything of any worth that arises in those times and places, you know.

Influence, not authorship.

It's hardly surprising that a worldview that dominated a region for close to 2 millennia had a significant impact on may aspects of that society though. And it's hardly surprising that regions with different religions developed in significantly different ways.

Beliefs have consequences after all.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

And modern automobiles were influenced by the steam engines that came before them.

ADA and @Augustus - I'm more than happy to acknowledge that in the past religion has sometimes had positives influences on today's best thinking. In the past. Time to move on, IMO.

Imo it's time to move on from the idea that humanism, including secular humanism was and still is separate from positive religious influence in a tunnelvisioned us vs. them mindset. Not only does secular humanism exist due to religious individuals, and Christian valuesets, but humanism is still populated by a lot of them. Both Christian and otherwise. Give Christian humanism or religious humanism a spin on Google and you might be surprised. Neither secularism nor humanism are unique to atheists nor historically and socially dependent on atheism.

 

[Augustus]

Largely value neutral but not entirely. In the case of humanism, scientific progress lends credence to the idea that we can solve our own problems.

Nah, that's just myth. It's certainly not an evidence based (scientific) view.

It's a bit like Charlie Brown trying to kick the football, maybe this time Lucy won't pull it away. Hopeful, but fundamentally irrational.

 

[icehorse]

@ADigitalArtist said (and I reformatted for readability):

1 - Imo it's time to move on from the idea that secular humanism was and still is separate from positive religious influence in a tunnelvisioned us vs. them mindset.

2 -Not only does secular humanism exist due to religious individuals, and Christian valuesets, but is still populated by a lot of them. Both Christian and otherwise.

3 - Give Christian secular humanism or religioud secular humanism a spin on Google and you might be surprised. Neither secularism nor humanism are unique to atheists nor historically and socially dependent on them.

1 - I already acknowledged that sometimes religion has had a positive influence on modern thinking. I'm happy to acknowledge that SH and H have had such benefits. In the same way that today's autos benefit from the steam engines that came before.

2 - Agreed, to a point. We see a lot of religious belief these days that is so watered down that it's hard to find the "there there". If you're saying that some "religious" folk don't really think there is a god, then sure, I'm sure that's the case. But notice how watered down such a stance is.

3 - Agreed, and I never claimed such dependencies.

 

[icehorse]

Nah, that's just myth. It's certainly not an evidence based (scientific) view.

false choice? your evidence for your "myth" claim?

 

[Augustus]

false choice? your evidence for your "myth" claim?

The entirety of human history. People were saying the same things at the start of the 20th C, that we had progressed to a stage where major wars were a thing of the past and humans could unite in a spirit of internationalism and humanistic progress.

But maybe next time eh?

The idea of evil as it appears in modern secular thought is an inheritance from Christianity. To be sure, rationalists have repudiated the idea; but it is not long before they find they cannot do without it. What has been understood as evil in the past, they insist, is error – a product of ignorance that human beings can overcome.

John Gray. The Soul of the Marionette: A Short Enquiry into Human Freedom

 

[Searching1981]

Before you go on, let us discuss the term Humanism, and how that term has changed.

Renaissance humanism - Wikipedia

The article has inaccuracies but when I was a wee little boy the term taught in school was Humanism meant Renaissance man. What is a Renaissance man you ask? That is the propaganda of your education by the Red States speaking. In short, it is the belief a man (or woman) can master all disciplines including athleticism and be completely well rounded i.e. the super man.

So, what is secular Humanism? What is Atheistic Humanism? I see these supposed Humanist and they literally made the cure to your drudgery the Pharmaceutical with deadly side effects...all before your very eyes. And you say, "I am Humanist because I am moral and am not a jerk." My response, "that isn't Humanism as it was meant that just means you know how to survive. How does surviving celebrate humanity?"

Now, I am not virtuous nor do I believe in virtue nor am I legalist nor do I believe in legalism, nor am I immoral but I don't necessarily believe in government morality...I say, "I am Good, what do I care about your Right?"

But what I tell you what a sad deception made on the ignorant for Atheists to make weakness a virtue and call it Humanism. "That is not what I meant, that is not what I meant at all." T.S. Eliot the Wastelands.

 

[icehorse]

The entirety of human history. People were saying the same things at the start of the 20th C, that we had progressed to a stage where major wars were a thing of the past and humans could unite in a spirit of internationalism and humanistic progress.

But maybe next time eh?

It seems that you're trying to make black and white that which is gray. No claims of perfect solutions are on the table here. Only claims of increasingly better solutions. Has humanity solved all of its problems? Of course not! But as an example, our sense of morality HAS progressed from where it was 2000 years ago or 1400 years ago. That is not to say it's now perfect, but there has been progress.

 

[Searching1981]

And the reason I am trying so hard? Not to save your soul, your soul is safe. Because if you are so scared you cannot fight blatant Totalitarianism (just like your partner Chomsky who works with Russian Right Wing Stateists and the rest want); because if you cannot acknowledge miracles to develop your Faith energy; because when a strong ideology (humanism) is change to become something very weak by your very heroes...what hope do you have to ever be happy on what Pope Francis acknowledges is the desert of Earth?

(All threads I create are valid, so you can dig up old threads when you cannot address my thoughts. But they all got this doctor to acknowledge the symptoms of your cancer.)

 

[Searching1981]

It seems that you're trying to make black and white that which is gray. No claims of perfect solutions are on the table here. Only claims of increasingly better solutions. Has humanity solved all of its problems? Of course not! But as an example, our sense of morality HAS progressed from where it was 2000 years ago or 1400 years ago. That is not to say it's now perfect, but there has been progress.

Educate me, how has morality evolved? "The past is not dead it is not even the past." William Faulkner....no response, no response.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

radical atheists are against the established negotiated morality.

What's a radical atheist?

 

[Searching1981]

What's a radical atheist?

That's a good question. I think that is the term given to atheists who make money off of atheism. So, the atheist has to have a Pastor and that is the Radical Atheist--it is a title for their Cardinals. I think the Russian government is their Pope.

 

[icehorse]

Educate me, how has morality evolved? "The past is not dead it is not even the past." William Faulkner....no response, no response.

Well one example is that slavery has been almost entirely abolished. Capital punishment is on the decline. Women's rights and gay rights are improving in much of the world. Debtor's prisons are much less common...