Views on Islam?

[Tumah]

My feelings on Islam is that there is potential for a lot of productivity and good there. The golden age brought a number of important accomplishments to the world. But I also feel like there is a lot of aggression. In past times, this aggression was not necessarily detrimental, everyone was to some extent aggressive. But in today's times, where such aggression is not considered a positive attribute, its causing Muslims to take the defensive-reactive position. So that rather than evolving on their own to meet civilization on the same terms, they are being forced to grow defensively, as a response to Western ideals. Almost like a self-fulfilling prophecy, the more you tell your child he's bad, the more likely he will fit that role.
The problem is that West is also constrained, because that aggressiveness represents a danger to Western civilization. Passively accepting that danger is not a responsible response.
Its kind of a catch-22.

 

[Ashraf]

I am sad to say that I feel nothing but sadness for Islam, it hasn't given me anything to show me that it is a religion of love, and that is all I can really say.

Keep feeling sad

 

[icehorse]

Keep feeling sad

Not sure where you're going with that idea?

I will say this: Governments around the world all have their problems. No government is without sin. So I look to the personal level, and the UN Declaration of Human Rights (UNDHR), is a common denominator that can sidestep governments. The OIC has steadfastly refused to accept the UNDHR and instead has put forth an "Islam friendly" version (the "Cairo Declaration"). The documents oppose each other on a few key points, e.g. apostasy (freedom from religion).

The UNDHR is a very minimalist set of rights. Every individual in the world should support it. If a Muslim feels that the UNDHR is in conflict with their beliefs, there will be conflict. On the other hand, if every individual - regardless of religion - would defend the UNDHR, then we could shift the actions of our governments and leaders towards a more peaceful world.

 

[Kade]

Islam is directed at worshiping a perfect God who has no equal, opponent, or example in our physical world. Islam is a religion of peace. Muslims are to live in peace with their neighbors regardless of their religion or absence of it. "Killing infidels" or "Jihad" is a battlefield duty which is carried out during war, and only during war (Muslims are only allowed to kill combatants during battles). Not unlike a trooper would, in an ordinary army, during a battle. What has remained of Islam in the minds of Muslims today is "Jihad", whereas living in peace and worshiping a forgiving and patient God has gone with ages. Why you may ask? Well history books teach us Muslims about our great "futuhat" (invasion) and Muslims tend to long for these glories; in the process, we have forgotten that true glory comes from righteousness.

What do I think about Islam? I think it is the true religion.
What do I think about Muslims? They are humans just like everyone else, and they will commit crimes for their own agendas, whilst claiming that they are executing God's will.

So my friends, do study the religion as an abstract entity; apart from Muslims themselves, which is a sociological study.

 

[icehorse]

Hi Kade,

I'm curious to know how you'd compare your understanding of Islam and the actions of Muslims to the UNDHR? Are they compatible? Incompatible?...

 

[Augustus]

Islam is directed at worshiping a perfect God who has no equal, opponent, or example in our physical world.

One thing that Muslims believe is a strength of their religion is their 'extreme' concept of monotheism. The Islamic God is like the ultimate God, all powerful, responsible for everything, knows everything, nothing happens without His permission. A very 'hands on' God. Muslims will tend to criticise other religions (Christianity, Hinduism, etc.) for the polytheistic and duelistic aspects of their religions that exist.

I find this concept of God especially hard to reconcile with such an unjust World though. Without at least some 'soft' [or overt] polytheism or duelism, this problem seems to me to be illogical.

With polytheism, the Gods are generally seen as capricious and flawed, which reflects reality. With duelism, evil and injustice flows from outside of God so is explainable. Other religions may have a more 'hands off' God, which again solves this problem or God is open to influence suggesting He has not ordained everything according to a plan..

I know many people will make similar critiques of religion, but it seems particularly pertinent in regard to Islam, as the Islamic God allows no other source of power or influence except that which stems from His will.

 

[YmirGF]

I know many people will make similar critiques of religion, but it seems particularly pertinent in regard to Islam, as the Islamic God allows no other source of power or influence except that which stems from His will.

It has always amused me that when the going gets good for Muslims, in general, it is the "will of Allah", but when things are against them it is persecution. Wonder why that persecution is also not the "will of Allah"?

 

[leibowde84]

How do you feel about Muslims, and Islam as a whole?

I know a lot of great people who are practicing Muslims. But, they do seem to look down on the "unenlightened", in which I am included. In regards to doctrine and beliefs, I must say that the "prophecies" made by Muhammad seem to be vague and unimpressive ... almost reasonably expected. It puzzles me why some Muslims find them to be so convincing, but I am always reading about more and more, so I still have hope that I will find an impressive one. And, let me be clear, I don't think that they are untrue ... I think they are vague and unimpressive even though they are true. They are like if I "predicted" that the world would some day be baron and without life due to forces beyond our understanding. Most likely true, but very obvious that it doesn't take divine revelation to "predict" it.

 

[icehorse]

I know a lot of great people who are practicing Muslims. But, they do seem to look down on the "unenlightened", in which I am included. In regards to doctrine and beliefs, I must say that the "prophecies" made by Muhammad seem to be vague and unimpressive ... almost reasonably expected. It puzzles me why some Muslims find them to be so convincing, but I am always reading about more and more, so I still have hope that I will find an impressive one. And, let me be clear, I don't think that they are untrue ... I think they are vague and unimpressive even though they are true. They are like if I "predicted" that the world would some day be baron and without life due to forces beyond our understanding. Most likely true, but very obvious that it doesn't take divine revelation to "predict" it.

Agreed. I've tried and tried - right here on RF - to have explained to me what the amazing Islamic morals and values are...

For any fan of Islam reading this, I'll ask again, sincerely, what are the big ideas in Islam? (More specifically, big ideas that weren't previously known and held by many societies.)

 

[leibowde84]

Agreed. I've tried and tried - right here on RF - to have explained to me what the amazing Islamic morals and values are...

For any fan of Islam reading this, I'll ask again, sincerely, what are the big ideas in Islam? (More specifically, big ideas that weren't previously known and held by many societies.)

That is another issue, but I was referring to the so-called "predictions" or "prophecies" made by Muhammad that many Muslims see as proof positive evidence for his connection with the divine. When you look at them, you say, "wouldn't anyone expect that to be the case"? I mean, in the words of Larry David, "if I could make that prediction, is it really divinely inspired"?

For God's sake (no pun intended) ... since anyone who fails to be skeptical of anyone claiming to speak for God is extremely foolish, why do these "prophecies" convince people so much?

 

[JustWondering]

What do you consider supernatural nonsense? If religions went away it wouldn't matter. People would still fight each other because there has been violence long before organized religion.

How many people do you think would be blowing themselves up if they didn't believe they were going to a heaven with 72 virgins just for them to ****?

 

[Augustus]

How many people do you think would be blowing themselves up if they didn't believe they were going to a heaven with 72 virgins just for them to ****?

Historically speaking, quite a lot. Tamils, Japanese, Chinese, Christians, Nationalists, socialists, etc. Without being bothered to check the statistics, would imagine that the majority of suicide attacks have been carried out by non-Muslims.

Currently though, probably about between 1% and 5% of the total are non-Islamist I would guess.

 

[raph]

That is another issue, but I was referring to the so-called "predictions" or "prophecies" made by Muhammad that many Muslims see as proof positive evidence for his connection with the divine. When you look at them, you say, "wouldn't anyone expect that to be the case"? I mean, in the words of Larry David, "if I could make that prediction, is it really divinely inspired"?

Muslims see prophecies as proof, because they already believe. Prophecies are never meant as a definite proof to impress people, and make them change their religion. The real miracle of Islam is the Word and history. That an illiterate man has turned a third of the world upside down, making them believe in a invisible being for which they give all their life and even death. Arabia was morally the worst place on earth, he made it the best place on earth. Arabia had the best poets, everyone was one. Muhammad was illiterate, yet he has made the best poem, in a style that noone could even understand how it worked. A huge amount of money came from the idols. Muhammad ended it all. The arabian tribes were always in war, yet Muhammad united them all. He started with a few followers. They were tortured, banished, spat on and killed. But he promised them, that Islam will win, and it did. He has changed the worst civilisation on earth into the most glorious one. The power of the Quran was extraordinary, for me, it comes close to a definite proof of divinity. The only book that can be compared to the Quran are other religious books, or do you know a non-religious book, that has changed society in such a degree for the better?

 

[raph]

For any fan of Islam reading this, I'll ask again, sincerely, what are the big ideas in Islam? (More specifically, big ideas that weren't previously known and held by many societies.)

The big ideas in Islam are not so big anymore. But they were VERY big, when and where Islam was created. The arabs were worse than animals, they had no morals other than "the strongest one wins". They were a people that killed baby daughters all the time, because women were worth literally nothing. Men literally possesed women, you could throw a blanket on womens' heads, and if nobody was trying to kill you, the woman was your possesion. Maybe other guys in the past also had big ideas, but good ideas didn't win in that nation, except for Muhammad's.
For me, being a fan of something is not about what's new in it. It is about what good has it done. Communism was new, but I am not a fan, because nothing good came out of it.

 

[leibowde84]

Muslims see prophecies as proof, because they already believe. Prophecies are never meant as a definite proof to impress people, and make them change their religion. The real miracle of Islam is the Word and history. That an illiterate man has turned a third of the world upside down, making them believe in a invisible being for which they give all their life and even death. Arabia was morally the worst place on earth, he made it the best place on earth. Arabia had the best poets, everyone was one. Muhammad was illiterate, yet he has made the best poem, in a style that noone could even understand how it worked. A huge amount of money came from the idols. Muhammad ended it all. The arabian tribes were always in war, yet Muhammad united them all. He started with a few followers. They were tortured, banished, spat on and killed. But he promised them, that Islam will win, and it did. He has changed the worst civilisation on earth into the most glorious one. The power of the Quran was extraordinary, for me, it comes close to a definite proof of divinity. The only book that can be compared to the Quran are other religious books, or do you know a non-religious book, that has changed society in such a degree for the better?

How has Muhammad changed society for the better to a high-degree? I feel like nothing could be further from the truth. It seems like the Middle-East is the most dangerous place on the planet because adherents to Islam are fighting amongst themselves, and have been since the death of Muhammad. So, if that is the standard for "changing the world for the better", I would have to say that the Bible did a much better job. The New Testament changed the notion of "an eye for an eye" to compassion. While the followers of it, like those of Muhammad, did not follow the guidance very well at all, the philosophical importance was still there. Now, I'm not saying that Christianity is better than Islam in any way, but to say that Muhammad changed the world for the better more so than any other faith is a huge leap.

Can you point to anything today that shows that Islam is making the world a better place for everyone, Muslim or not?

 

[Theweirdtophat]

How many people do you think would be blowing themselves up if they didn't believe they were going to a heaven with 72 virgins just for them to ****?

I know people have fought before all of these religions showed up. Because I've read history. Most wars and conflicts aren't even due to religious reasons. The things that drive war is terrritory and resources. Religion can be used to justify wars but it doesn't cause wars. Take all the religions out of this planet and it won't make a difference. Besides look at what the communists did and they weren't just atheist, but anti-theist.

People look at the news and just assume all Muslims are the one and the same. Do you really think that hundreds of millions of Muslims believe in the same thing and are committing terrorist activities? Does anyone stop to think how unbelievably asinine that sounds?

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

I know people have fought before all of these religions showed up. Because I've read history. Most wars and conflicts aren't even due to religious reasons. The things that drive war is terrritory and resources. Religion can be used to justify wars but it doesn't cause wars. Take all the religions out of this planet and it won't make a difference. Besides look at what the communists did and they weren't just atheist, but anti-theist.

People look at the news and just assume all Muslims are the one and the same. Do you really think that hundreds of millions of Muslims believe in the same thing and are committing terrorist activities? Does anyone stop to think how unbelievably asinine that sounds?

Religions can cause wars. The Crusades are just one example. The bottom line is that while religion isn't the single biggest cause of conflict it is yet another potential factor. If you took organised religion out of the world the Crusades would never have happened, the wars that were started as Islam spread out of Arabia like wildfire would never have happened, the Thirty Years War in Europe would never have happened, the Wars of the Three Kingdoms (Scotland, England & Ireland; not the equivalent conflict in China) wouldn't have happened, the German Peasants' War wouldn't have happened, the constant bloodshed and atrocities between competing sects as Christianity rose from obscurity in the Roman Empire wouldn't have happened. I could go on. Take religion out of it and those wars wouldn't have started (or at least wouldn't have been started by religion).

 

[kepha31]

Religions can cause wars.

Yes, but it is rarely the case. According to the Encyclopedia of Wars (Phillips and Axelrod, Facts on File, December 2004) of the 1,763 major conflicts in recorded history, only 123 of them were classified as having been fought over religious differences. That’s just under 7 percent.

The Crusades are just one example.

A defensive war is justifiable. What passes for common knowledge of such a twisted version of history that even president Obama has been duped. The Crusades were necessary, as revealed by middle age historians.

The bottom line is that while religion isn't the single biggest cause of conflict it is yet another potential factor.

If you remove the quest for power from the equation there is very little "religion" left.

 

[Augustus]

Arabia was morally the worst place on earth, he made it the best place on earth.

Based on what criteria?

A huge amount of money came from the idols. Muhammad ended it all.

Did it really? evidence?

The arabian tribes were always in war, yet Muhammad united them all.

Lots of them fought together or against each other either for the Romans or Persians.

During and after Muhammed's life many of them they fought against each other almost constantly. When did he unite them all?

 

[raph]

How has Muhammad changed society for the better to a high-degree? I feel like nothing could be further from the truth. It seems like the Middle-East is the most dangerous place on the planet because adherents to Islam are fighting amongst themselves, and have been since the death of Muhammad. So, if that is the standard for "changing the world for the better", I would have to say that the Bible did a much better job. The New Testament changed the notion of "an eye for an eye" to compassion. While the followers of it, like those of Muhammad, did not follow the guidance very well at all, the philosophical importance was still there. Now, I'm not saying that Christianity is better than Islam in any way, but to say that Muhammad changed the world for the better more so than any other faith is a huge leap.

Can you point to anything today that shows that Islam is making the world a better place for everyone, Muslim or not?

I can't.

One can only judge a fruit, when it is ripe. One can not judge a fruit when it is rotten. Christian civilisations may be "better" than islamic today, although I wouldn't judge so fast. What about slavery, racism, all the wars in europe, holocaust, cold war when we almost blew up earth, exploitation of other countries and all the genocides, that happened in the last 200 years?
But what was the Islam like, when it was ripe, when the west was in its most disgusting time, the dark age?

Islamic Golden Age - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I am in no way saying that the Islamic world today is good. But Muhammad has made a wild arab nation without morals, into one of the most glorious nations with most morals. There was a time, when even no-muslims were very happy, to live in the islamic countries.

What happened then is another story. But I believe that every created thing gets old and dies. Religions are no exception.