Vision of Hell

[slave2six]

I disagree, when you put a pedophile in jail, he is tortured everyday for not being able to put his hands on a little boy or watch someone else do it. You have taken away his power to do what he desires most. That sounds like torture.

Torture is being strapped to a rack and having all your limbs stretched until your bones pop out of their sockets - or having acid poured on you - bamboo chutes under the finder nails - being doused in water then hooked up to a battery and being shocked. That's torture. Or, burning in a lake of fire forever...

 

[slave2six]

But at least I can say that I base my opinion of you on something you've said and not on what some other anti-religionist has said.

Do you believe that there is a Hell? Do you believe the Genesis story at all? Do you believe that Jesus suffered and died to reconcile man to God? Do you believe that the blood of Jesus covers your sins?

If you answer Yes to any of the above, you have my pity. It is not bigotry. It is simple reason vs. a system that is designed to enslave the masses first by telling them that they are inherently horrible, that they can't do a thing about it, that it's entirely their fault because the sin of Adam is imputed on everyone, and that unless you do X then you will spend eternity in Hell.

Where do you get this 2 billion people stat anyways? Still, that's only 1/3 of humanity. I'm glad it isn't more.

 

[Azakel]

Well, if you want to say that a person likes the nice things that Jesus taught and ignores all the bad scary stuff and they still want to call themselves Christians, that's another matter. But it is not what the word "Christian" means or has ever meant until maybe the last 20 years or so. True Christians take the Gospels as truth and you can't choose the beatitudes while ignoring Matthew 25 and other places like that. I am the son of a Christian pastor who became a priest and I have spent over 40 years in the Christian church (not extremist either) and I know what I'm talking about. Those people who want to go about calling themselves Christians but who cherry-pick the stuff that they like are, as you say, more pagan than Christian.

Right and who said that anything that Matthew or Luke wrote are true. There are many doctrines in Christian that one will not find in a Normal everyday Bible. Who is to say that what are in those Gospels(and are also seen as going against the Church) aren't what Jesus truly said and that the 4 one finds in a Mainstream Bible aren't thing written by man to control others.

 

[Katzpur]

Do you believe that there is a Hell? Do you believe the Genesis story at all? Do you believe that Jesus suffered and died to reconcile man to God? Do you believe that the blood of Jesus covers your sins?

If you answer Yes to any of the above, you have my pity.

I don't want your lousy, stinking pity.

It is not bigotry. It is simple reason vs. a system that is designed to enslave the masses first by telling them that they are inherently horrible, that they can't do a thing about it, that it's entirely their fault because the sin of Adam is imputed on everyone, and that unless you do X then you will spend eternity in Hell.

Simple reason? That's absurd. Just because you believe one thing and I believe something else, you're reasonable and I'm deluded? If that's not bigotry, I don't know what is. (1) I don't believe I'm inherently horrible. I don't believe anybody is. (2) I believe we all make mistakes from time to time but we definitely can do something about it. (3) I don't believe in a God who would punish anybody for something someone else did and (4) I believe that hardly anybody will end up in Hell -- including you. Don't take that as meaning that I'm looking forward to eventually meeting you in Heaven, because I'm definitely not.

Where do you get this 2 billion people stat anyways? Still, that's only 1/3 of humanity.

I get it off pretty much every website that provides religious demographics.

I'm glad it isn't more.

Yeah, and I'm glad there aren't more like you either. By the way, are you this pleasant in person?

 

[gwk230]

A bigot is a person who is obstinately and irrationally, often intolerantly, devoted to his or her own religion, political party, organization, belief, or opinion, especially one who regards or treats those of differing devotion with hatred and intolerance.[1] Bigotry is the corresponding mindset or action.
The term bigot is often misused to pejoratively label those who merely oppose or disagree with the devotion of another. The correct use of the term, however, requires the elements of obstinacy, irrationality, and animus toward those of differing devotion.
The origin of the word bigot and bigoterie in English dates back to at least 1598, via Middle French, and started with the sense of "religious hypocrite". Forms of bigotry may have a related ideology or world views.[Wikipedia]


That kinda covers alot on RF doesn't it?

 

[averageJOE]

The Tortures not even on the same Level. First you make it seem like those people in there for Murder or Rape feel tortured because they can't do it any more, you have no proof of those feeling for them to being with. Second, No matter what version of Hell you go with, Lake 'O Fire, FFH's Chains, Whips, Cells, and beatings(which sounds more like a S n' M House), or even if you use Dante Alighieri's version of Hell it is seen as a place of physical torture, being beaten, cut, slashed, ripped a part, feed filth and and all that is nothing like just being locked away.

I agree.

The comparison between prison and Hell isn't even close.

I've seen the inside of a prison a couple of times. (We, the Military Police, have been called by the State a few times to help lock down the prison and perform person and cell searches. Two guys in my Unit work as prison guards in their civilian life)

Yes, there are rapes, beatings, robberies, and murders that take place. Just like the do in life outside of prison.

But the prisoners themselves pretty much have it made, minus the lack of privacy that is. Prison sucks and I'd rather die than go. But these guys get 3 square meals a day, all the FREE medical attention they need, they can sleep as much as they want. But the caziest part...about 80% of the prison population physically look like Mr. Universe! Meaning, they all (the 80%) have bodies that can be on the cover of "Muscle and Fitness" magazine. These guys were ripped!! They were in better shape than most of the soldiers!! Also, about half of the populations usually use the time they have to emotionally, mentally, physically, sprirtually, religiously, and/or intellectually better themselves.

I don't believe in a Hell. But the Christian Hell is a place of eternal suffering and torture. Though people do suffer in prison they are not tortured, by the State that is. Prison, for the most part, is a place of rehabilitation.

 

[FFH]

1 Nephi 9:16

And assuredly, as the Lord liveth, for the Lord God hath spoken it, and it is his eternal word, which cannot pass away, that they who are righteous shall be righteous still, and they who are filthy shall be filthy still; wherefore, they who are filthy are the devil and his angels; and they shall go away into everlasting fire, prepared for them; and their torment is as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever and has no end.

D&C 19:11-12
Eternal punishment is God’s punishment.
Endless punishment is God’s punishment.


That sounds pretty eternal to me.

Hell is ETERNAL, but that doesn't mean that all who go there will be there for ETERNITY.

Hell was created for the devil and his angels and for the sons of perdition, for ETERNITY, but all else will EVENTUALLY be REDEEMED from that aweful place, but not until they have "paid the uttermost farthing" for their unrepented sins.

Better to repent now and avoid hell altogether.

The GOOD news is that NONE will be LOST in hell FOREVER, except the SONS of PERDIDITION (THE VERY VILEST OF SINNERS).

These scriptues shed light on this.

Doctrine and Covenants 76 (LDS scripture)

26 And was called Perdition, for the heavens wept over him—he was Lucifer, a son of the morning.

32 They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born;

40 And this is the gospel, the glad tidings, which the voice out of the heavens bore record unto us—
41 That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world, and to bear the sins of the world, and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness;
42 That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him;
43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him.

John 17: 12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

 

[slave2six]

Simple reason? That's absurd. Just because you believe one thing and I believe something else, you're reasonable and I'm deluded? If that's not bigotry, I don't know what is.

I'm sorry to get you all riled up but you know if I tell you 1+1=2 yet you want to insist that it really equals 11, which of us is deluded? Belief has nothing to do with it, at least not on my part. See the following...

(1) I don't believe I'm inherently horrible. I don't believe anybody is. (2) I believe we all make mistakes from time to time but we definitely can do something about it. (3) I don't believe in a God who would punish anybody for something someone else did and (4) I believe that hardly anybody will end up in Hell -- including you.

Then you clearly do not believe what the Bible or the Church Fathers teach. I assume that since you have an addendum (about which I know practically nothing) in the LDS that perhaps you have adopted the name "Christian" and given it a new meaning. But before Joseph Smith and for those who didn't buy into his teachings (all the black folk were cursed according to LDS doctrine - that much I do know), the Christian doctrine has universally been accepted to mean at the very core that (1) Man is sinful by nature (2) the sacrifice of Christ is the remedy for that condition and (3) those who do not accept that remedy will spend eternity in Hell. Your stated beliefs contradict the very basic doctrines of Christianity and so, one has to wonder why you are defending it.

As for number 1, it can be factually proven that there never was a Garden or a time when there were just to homo sapiens sapiens who were perfect beings and who committed an act that led to the "fall of man" - the primary doctrine upon which all Judeo-Christianity is built. Since the foundation is in fact non-existent, the entirety is what we call "baseless" and therefore wrong. That you disagree with this is irrelevant. The facts are the facts. As Mr John Adams said, "Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."

It always astounds me when dialoging with people how little they know about their own faith. Indeed, in many cases the resemblance between what some people call "Christianity" and that which the church has always believed is so forign that it is like a dyed-in-the-wool North Korean Communist claiming that he loves freedom. It's truly weird to me that so few take the trouble to learn for themselves and merely accept whatever the preacher has to say or that they never look to any of the writings of the men who gave us the Bible and the core doctrines of the church. Quite baffling to me, really. One would think that with eternity in the balance, people would be more diligent to discover exactly what it is that they ought to beileve.

I don't want your lousy, stinking pity..... Don't take that as meaning that I'm looking forward to eventually meeting you in Heaven, because I'm definitely not.

And so you hereby prove my premise while also more closely aligning yourself with FFH. These are not the words that could be attributed one who seeks to model their life after Christ. It took relatively little, just a few comments on an open forum from someone that you do not know, to cause you to make comments like this which are, by all accounts, extremely un-Christ-like.

Sadly, I am not surprised by this nor even angered or defensive (though you seem to think me a combative person - which I am not). I have found this to be the rule, rather than the exception, amongst most people who call themselves Christians. Yet another excellent reason to abandon the Christian faith entirely and seek for truth elsewhere.

Pax.

 

[slave2six]

A bigot is a person who is obstinately and irrationally, often intolerantly, devoted to his or her own religion, political party, organization, belief, or opinion, especially one who regards or treats those of differing devotion with hatred and intolerance...That kinda covers alot on RF doesn't it?

It does. I first came to the RF looking for people who could debate based on reason or even common sense. I am willing to be proved wrong. Indeed, in the quest that led to my leaving Christianity entirely, I was desperate to be proven wrong. I didn't want to give it up. But I could not, in good conscience, look squarly at the facts and still hold to Christian doctrines any more than I would have been able to declare that OJ was innocent (in either trial). It really just came down to my inability to believe that God is either stupid or vile - a belief that I would have to uphold in order to allow the facts and the religion to coexist within me.

 

[slave2six]

Prison, for the most part, is a place of rehabilitation.

Doh! You had me all the way up to this sentence. I agree with everything else but I don't see that most are actually rehabilitated in prison. The recidivism rate is rather high, is it not? (Just a quick check here says "Within three years of their release, 67% of former prisoners are rearrested and 52% are re-incarcerated..."

 

[Azakel]

I agree.

The comparison between prison and Hell isn't even close.

I've seen the inside of a prison a couple of times. (We, the Military Police, have been called by the State a few times to help lock down the prison and perform person and cell searches. Two guys in my Unit work as prison guards in their civilian life)

Yes, there are rapes, beatings, robberies, and murders that take place. Just like the do in life outside of prison.

But the prisoners themselves pretty much have it made, minus the lack of privacy that is. Prison sucks and I'd rather die than go. But these guys get 3 square meals a day, all the FREE medical attention they need, they can sleep as much as they want. But the caziest part...about 80% of the prison population physically look like Mr. Universe! Meaning, they all (the 80%) have bodies that can be on the cover of "Muscle and Fitness" magazine. These guys were ripped!! They were in better shape than most of the soldiers!! Also, about half of the populations usually use the time they have to emotionally, mentally, physically, sprirtually, religiously, and/or intellectually better themselves.

I don't believe in a Hell. But the Christian Hell is a place of eternal suffering and torture. Though people do suffer in prison they are not tortured, by the State that is. Prison, for the most part, is a place of rehabilitation.

I took a tour of a prison my senior year of high school for psychology/sociology class. Hey most guys where big.

 

[Gentoo]

Hell is ETERNAL, but that doesn't mean that all who go there will be there for ETERNITY.

Hell was created for the devil and his angels and for the sons of perdition, for ETERNITY, but all else will EVENTUALLY be REDEEMED from that aweful place, but not until they have "paid the uttermost farthing" for their unrepented sins.

Better to repent now and avoid hell altogether.

The GOOD news is that NONE will be LOST in hell FOREVER, except the SONS of PERDIDITION (THE VERY VILEST OF SINNERS).

These scriptues shed light on this.

Doctrine and Covenants 76 (LDS scripture)

26 And was called Perdition, for the heavens wept over him—he was Lucifer, a son of the morning.

32 They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born;

40 And this is the gospel, the glad tidings, which the voice out of the heavens bore record unto us—
41 That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world, and to bear the sins of the world, and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness;
42 That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him;
43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him.

John 17: 12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Even though 1 Nephi 9:16 ends with this: "...and their torment is as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever and has no end." ?

 

[Azakel]

Whether or not Hell is eternal for a god to send somewhere there to torture them in till they repent seem sick and twisted. But then again what does one expect from a Tribal god anyway.

 

[averageJOE]

Doh! You had me all the way up to this sentence. I agree with everything else but I don't see that most are actually rehabilitated in prison. The recidivism rate is rather high, is it not? (Just a quick check here says "Within three years of their release, 67% of former prisoners are rearrested and 52% are re-incarcerated..."

Actually you are correct. I think I got a little smug when I used the word "rehabilitation". :cover: Thanks for catchin that.

Comparing Hell to prison is still an inacurate comparison. Those guys are well taken care of.

 

[DallasApple]

Your actions are because how you feel about hell.. Not how you feel about God.. Your obsession with the brutal ugliness and pain of hell scares you.

"I choose not to GET BURNED."

That seems like a scared comment.. someone who wants to avoid hell at all cost.. so in reaction loves God. :sorry1:

I agree .

It can happen on Earth too.With people..Same train of thought.

"love" and devotion out of fear of reprucussions isnt really love at all.

If you hold a gun to my head and say "give me a kiss and tell me you love me or I'll blow your head off"...So I give you a kiss and tell you I love you doesnt mean its true.Sure you "got" a kiss but while I was kissing you and "saying " I love you was only to protect myself.My heart isnt in it..So Im a puppet...Not even a person.An extension of what you think want and wish.

But then again we are children..and pretty needy ones at that.So I imagine we would do just about anything to gain approval.Its a circle that goes around and around.

Love

Dallas

 

[DallasApple]

Actually you are correct. I think I got a little smug when I used the word "rehabilitation". :cover: Thanks for catchin that.

Comparing Hell to prison is still an inacurate comparison. Those guys are well taken care of.

My understanding is hell is a seperation from God.Sort of IMHO searching and looking and listless and never satisified ..nothingness.wanderign around empty.Sad and lonely and confused.Afraid ..basically forever.

Love

Dallas

 

[Wandered Off]

My understanding is hell is a seperation from God...basically forever.

For those who believe the afterlife is basically being "stuck" in one extreme or the other with no chance of migration, I never quite figured out how it makes sense to force us to make such a final decision - one we can't even be sure we have anyway - in an environment of utter uncertainty. To be held eternally to consequences we were forced to "choose" in uncertainty and in the incredibly brief (compared to eternity) vapor that is our life on earth...

http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...ates/52078-heaven-hell-gated-communities.html

 

[FFH]

Even though 1 Nephi 9:16 ends with this: "...and their torment is as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever and has no end." ?

The FLAMES in hell HAVE NO END, THEY ARE ETERNAL, they were created for satan and his angels and the sons of perdition, but all else will be redeemed from hell, and receive a reward in the Telestial Kingdom, but not until the end of the millenial (1000 year) reign of Jesus Christ on earth, when those who were NOT Christ's at his coming, will be redeemed from hell, except the sons of perdition and satan and his angels, they will FOREEVER be in hell, they've forever chosen their fate, that's what they want.

This is LDS doctrine, FEW know or understand it.

 

[DallasApple]

For those who believe the afterlife is basically being "stuck" in one extreme or the other with no chance of migration, I never quite figured out how it makes sense to force us to make such a final decision - one we can't even be sure we have anyway - in an environment of utter uncertainty. To be held eternally to consequences we were forced to "choose" in uncertainty and in the incredibly brief (compared to eternity) vapor that is our life on earth...

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/general-religious-debates/52078-heaven-hell-gated-communities.htmlhttp://www.religiousforums.com/foru...ates/52078-heaven-hell-gated-communities.html

It doesnt sound very loving does it?

Here ..I will blow your head off if you dont decide NOW!

Love

Dallas

 

[FFH]

I agree .

It can happen on Earth too.With people..Same train of thought.

"love" and devotion out of fear of reprucussions isnt really love at all.

If you hold a gun to my head and say "give me a kiss and tell me you love me or I'll blow your head off"...So I give you a kiss and tell you I love you doesnt mean its true.Sure you "got" a kiss but while I was kissing you and "saying " I love you was only to protect myself.My heart isnt in it..So Im a puppet...Not even a person.An extension of what you think want and wish.

But then again we are children..and pretty needy ones at that.So I imagine we would do just about anything to gain approval.Its a circle that goes around and around.

Love

Dallas

You've just compared God to a RAPIST.

God is NOT a RAPIST, he's a LOVING, KIND, GENTLE, COMPASSIONATE person, who is ALL POWERFUL, ALL KNOWING and ALL PRESENT. He SEES ALL, KNOWS ALL and is in ALL THINGS and in ALL PLACES. His Spirit resides in the temples (bodies) that he has given us. If we DEFILE that temple (body), that temple (body) will be thrown into hell and burned.

God is a PERFECT JUDGE, he's PERFECTLY JUST and PERFECTLY MERCIFUL.

God has set before us two choices...

Heaven and Hell

Take your pick, God is NOT FORCING anyone, we have our FREE AGENCY.

I choose heaven over hell...

It's NOT a complicated choice, but it's a HARD road, cuz it means GIVING up the THINGS OF THIS WORLD, in lue of a BETTER ONE.

I CHOOSE HEAVEN OVER THIS WORLD.

If a person chooses THIS WORLD and all the PLEASURES of THIS WORLD, over HEAVEN, then they've JUST said to God, I choose HELL, I choose to STAY in HELL.

No offense to you personally, this message is for EVERYONE, MYSELF INCLUDED.