Vote on your beliefs regarding baptism,

[Izdaari]

Hi, where does Jesus command baptism?

Matthew 28:18-20 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

 

[Desert Snake]

I voted and believe as follows::

Jesus commanded baptism, for all Christians.

I'm not aware of that.

Anyone can baptize.

Agree.

It is not a salvation issue.

Agree.

In truth, Jesus never explained why he wanted us to do it, so that remains unknown. It is sufficient for me that he said so.

I am Episcopalian and ELCA Lutheran (one church, two denominational affiliations).

 

[Desert Snake]

Matthew 28:18-20 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

Is this Johns baptism? /Ie , the water baptism, that Jesus is referring to?

 

[Izdaari]

Is this Johns baptism? /Ie , the water baptism, that Jesus is referring to?

It is at least conventionally assumed so. Do you think that may be incorrect?

 

[Desert Snake]

It is at least conventionally assumed so. Do you think that may be incorrect?

I'm not sure. I need to read the verses in context. I was thinking of perhaps adding some verses thar might be relevant to the discussion, but I haven't formulated them.

 

[Desert Snake]

It is at least conventionally assumed so. Do you think that may be incorrect?

I would be hesitant to assume that He means the water baptism, yes. There is generally a distinction made between the 'types' of baptism, I believe. It may or may not mean that, /Johns baptism/ imo. The Spirit baptism is not the water baptism, basically.

 

[Izdaari]

I would be hesitant to assume that He means the water baptism, yes. There is generally a distinction made between the 'types' of baptism, I believe. It may or may not mean that, /Johns baptism/ imo. The Spirit baptism is not the water baptism, basically.

Right, they are not the same. But since it was the practice of the disciples to baptize new converts with water, though Jesus did not personally do it, it seems reasonable that they did so in compliance with the wishes of their rabbi (Jesus).

 

[Desert Snake]

Right, they are not the same. But since it was the practice of the disciples to baptize new converts with water, though Jesus did not personally do it, it seems reasonable that they did so in compliance with the wishes of their rabbi (Jesus).

Sure, but we don't know if this is same 'baptism' being commanded. I notice that Jesu actually doesn't say, 'Johns baptism, or such...and Jesus did not assume Johns role as a water baptizer. I am really hesitant to assume that Jesu means water baptism. Like I said, it might, and more context helps, but Jesu calls Johns baptism, 'Johns baptism,', I mean, He does not call it His baptism, there is definitely a distinction, in the Scriptures.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

If I took a different view, Id understand that. Scripture does say you only need faith to believe and to carry your cross, evangalive, and continue to follow in communion,the requirement of Christ and example of the apostles. Its hard not to say baptism important because I see the inner need that people want to act in their vow to follow Christ. Its more than symbolism because in their heart they signify not visualise the water and Gods blessings cleaning them free of sin.

Its one thing to say, I dont feel my following Christ and growth through him but ceremony (preference). Its a totally different thing to say it is wrong because of that preference. I mean many religions incorporate cultural practices in their faith. They develop over time and help deepen a persons faith in who they worship. Christianity, is no different. Communion was a neccessity in following Christ as He says where there is more than one person He is there. He always hung around His diciples and His diciples spread His Word in communion and traditons of their culture.

I, no offense, find protestants (minus methodist, lutheran, JW, episco, and like denomini) are pulling so far away from the cultural ties to Jesus teaching and communion with like believers (avoiding church) that it becomes new age. It reminds me of some pagan faiths that are in part origianlly were polytheistic faiths. They were cultural faiths with a set tradition. Not non denomiational pagan, like eclecticism. Not neopagan, like using intent for spells. In Christianity, I see a mirroring pattern.

Its one thing not to follow Christ through teachings such as specific forms of communion. Jesus can be recieved in heart only but more benefitial through His body. However, to look down on ceremonial ways to help people begin their journey in Christ! I find that so appaling. I honestly dont know why some religions fall away from cultural practices. I find that common in the states.

Also, I think it could be a continuation of being a protest-tant of British rule. I think Britian was a Catholic influenced country so coming to America, people divorced themselves from not only british rule but to not associate themselves with religious influence (which was pretty bad then)

I don't believe that Johns baptism is a pre-requisite to being saved; I believe that that might be what some churches taught, or such. Either from a misinterpretation of Scripture, or a 'practical' matter, of noting adherents who were joining a church, and it was just assumed, that Johns baptism was necessary for salvation.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I dont feel its misinterpretation. They didnt pevert Johns teachings. Rather, I feel they not only want people to believe by faith, but in action--commitment--"as well." Its like a Jewish child's ceremony to adulthood. Even more secular and non religious, getting your first car once turn of proper age. These things (religious ones) dont distort the faith. Some need the outward expression of a inner commitment to follow Christ.

I don't believe that Johns baptism is a pre-requisite to being saved; I believe that that might be what some churches taught, or such. Either from a misinterpretation of Scripture, or a 'practical' matter, of noting adherents who were joining a church, and it was just assumed, that Johns baptism was necessary for salvation.

 

[Norman]

How would you define what a ''Christian'' is?

Norman: Hi disciple, well, I guess I would answer that as someone who believes in Jesus Christ and his teachings. I know some people do not feel that one has to be baptized to be a
Christian, however, I look at baptism as making a covenant with Jesus to follow him, sins are forgiven and a newness of life occurs. Keeping in mind, this is my opinion and belief and I
honor and respect all people's belief's that differ from mine. If that didn't hit the nail with the hammer, let me know and I will try again.

 

[JR Miller]

I disagree entirely. It's not a tradition of the church, it's a directive from Christ. And it was not symbolic when He Himself was baptized. It was so significant that God the Father and God the Holy Spirit became audibly and visibly present then and there with God the Son. It is a sacrament in which all a person's sins are forgiven and which leaves an indelible mark on the soul. What greater point is there to miss?

And who or what do you think washes away the sins of man? Is it the water or God?

 

[atpollard]

The questions are relatively simple, if two answers might contradict each other, choose the one that takes precedence in importance, to you.

OOPS, I cheated.
I voted 'Yes' to "A christian must be baptized to be a christian" because I believe that the internal renewal that comes from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is the defining element of both Salvation and being a Christian.
I voted 'Yes' to "A christian does not need to be baptized in order to be a christian" because I believe that a good old fashioned immersion in water is useful and important, but not absolutely essential to qualify one to the internal renewal that comes from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Thus I have no problem with the proclamation of the thief on the cross, or a death bed conversion resulting in complete justification.
But I can say that any believer who has an opportunity to be immersed, should take advantage of the earliest opportunity to do as Jesus commands.

 

[ChristineES]

I believe that Christians must, if they are able, be Baptized. There are exceptions, like anything else. Since I believe in full immersion (I am not saying that those who are "sprinkled" are not truly baptized, though) I think some people just can't handle being underwater, even with a minister holding on to him or her, death bed conversions where a person has no time left to be baptized, and people who are too ill to be dunked or whatever.
Since the scriptures say that Jesus, himself, was baptized, then I believe we ought to be, too, as a symbol of our new life with Jesus/Yeshua. I have the belief, too, as John said in the Gospels, that we are also baptized with Holy Spirit.
Edited to add: Baptism does not save people, it is a symbol.

 

[Desert Snake]

If I took a different view, Id understand that. Scripture does say you only need faith to believe and to carry your cross, evangalive, and continue to follow in communion,the requirement of Christ and example of the apostles. Its hard not to say baptism important because I see the inner need that people want to act in their vow to follow Christ. Its more than symbolism because in their heart they signify not visualise the water and Gods blessings cleaning them free of sin.

Its one thing to say, I dont feel my following Christ and growth through him but ceremony (preference). Its a totally different thing to say it is wrong because of that preference. I mean many religions incorporate cultural practices in their faith. They develop over time and help deepen a persons faith in who they worship. Christianity, is no different. Communion was a neccessity in following Christ as He says where there is more than one person He is there. He always hung around His diciples and His diciples spread His Word in communion and traditons of their culture.

I, no offense, find protestants (minus methodist, lutheran, JW, episco, and like denomini) are pulling so far away from the cultural ties to Jesus teaching and communion with like believers (avoiding church) that it becomes new age. It reminds me of some pagan faiths that are in part origianlly were polytheistic faiths. They were cultural faiths with a set tradition. Not non denomiational pagan, like eclecticism. Not neopagan, like using intent for spells. In Christianity, I see a mirroring pattern.

Its one thing not to follow Christ through teachings such as specific forms of communion. Jesus can be recieved in heart only but more benefitial through His body. However, to look down on ceremonial ways to help people begin their journey in Christ! I find that so appaling. I honestly dont know why some religions fall away from cultural practices. I find that common in the states.

Also, I think it could be a continuation of being a protest-tant of British rule. I think Britian was a Catholic influenced country so coming to America, people divorced themselves from not only british rule but to not associate themselves with religious influence (which was pretty bad then)

If this is referring to my beliefs, then it's not really accurate. I'm not a ''Protestant'', the closest Xian group to my beliefs is Quakers, or such. That being said, I believe that some Protestant groups get this one right, in thinking that the water baptism is not necessary, and is or can be over emphasized as a pre-requisite for 'Salvation'. When I ask you about your beliefs regarding ''salvation'', btw, I am simply asking for your opinion, as I do not believe that Non-Xians are necessarily ''not saved'', or whatever. I don't use the term salvation, personally.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Youd have to remind me of your faith a couple of times. I forget easily. To my understanding, all non catholic christians are protestants.

Most protestant denomi and I share different opiniona on baptism. In my view, I dont see them turning from it because of preference. That is understandable. I see them turn from it as if the ceremony contains some type of poison that will infect the person being baptized. Its the connotations.

May I ask, why dont you use the word salvation? That could be the reason we have different views on who can be saved, our wording.

If this is referring to my beliefs, then it's not really accurate. I'm not a ''Protestant'', the closest Xian group to my beliefs is Quakers, or such. That being said, I believe that some Protestant groups get this one right, in thinking that the water baptism is not necessary, and is or can be over emphasized as a pre-requisite for 'Salvation'. When I ask you about your beliefs regarding ''salvation'', btw, I am simply asking for your opinion, as I do not believe that Non-Xians are necessarily ''not saved'', or whatever. I don't use the term salvation, personally.

 

[Desert Snake]

Youd have to remind me of your faith a couple of times. I forget easily. To my understanding, all non catholic christians are protestants.

I don't attend a church. I believe in various teachings of, and the veracity, of, the Bible. I do believe in the possibility of a Deific manifestation, so, therefore, I have no problem with the idea of Jesus. So, anyways, some of my beliefs are similar to Xainity, /mainstream xianity/, but some aren't. Hope that's clear enough...

Most protestant denomi and I share different opiniona on baptism. In my view, I dont see them turning from it because of preference. That is understandable. I see them turn from it as if the ceremony contains some type of poison that will infect the person being baptized. Its the connotations.

I'm not aware of this. If you have actually noticed that, it could be because you were reading why it isn't ''necessary''? I think most Protestants baptize, I can't even think of one group that doesn't. I believe they baptize, when one enters the church.

 

[Desert Snake]

Youd have to remind me of your faith a couple of times. I forget easily. To my understanding, all non catholic christians are protestants.

Most protestant denomi and I share different opiniona on baptism. In my view, I dont see them turning from it because of preference. That is understandable. I see them turn from it as if the ceremony contains some type of poison that will infect the person being baptized. Its the connotations.

May I ask, why dont you use the word salvation? That could be the reason we have different views on who can be saved, our wording.

Because of the common connotation with it, namely that non-Xians aren't ''saved''. I don't have that belief.

 

[Desert Snake]

Youd have to remind me of your faith a couple of times. I forget easily. To my understanding, all non catholic christians are protestants.

Most protestant denomi and I share different opiniona on baptism. In my view, I dont see them turning from it because of preference. That is understandable. I see them turn from it as if the ceremony contains some type of poison that will infect the person being baptized. Its the connotations.

May I ask, why dont you use the word salvation? That could be the reason we have different views on who can be saved, our wording.

I am wondering if the reason you hold the rituals so important, is because of the belief that Jesus is the ''middleman'', as it were? For many Xians, Jesus is not a middleman, therefore the physical rituals are not 'required' in order to be baptized by the Spirit. This would make sense, imo.
That being said, I'm not a Trinitarian, anyways. So it really changes the way we view, imo, the nature of G-d, the Godhead, and many things.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Ive been taught all my life that Jesus, God or not, is the middle man between God the Father and the believer.

The closest way to describe ritual and belief is prayer. When I see any Christian pray around the dinner table, before heading on a car journey, etc they bow their heads, close their eyes, or maybe hold hands, etc.

The actions in itself does nothing. However, with prayer, the bowing is submissiveness or respect to God as with closing the eyes. Holding hands is sign of communion, togetherness love with family or like believers.

I see the same with religious rituals. Saying holding hands with my family is only a symbol of love is like an insult. The rituals Are the love. Just as a hug or a kiss. Its "part of" worship. Thats why its so important.

I am wondering if the reason you hold the rituals so important, is because of the belief that Jesus is the ''middleman'', as it were? For many Xians, Jesus is not a middleman, therefore the physical rituals are not 'required' in order to be baptized by the Spirit. This would make sense, imo.
That being said, I'm not a Trinitarian, anyways. So it really changes the way we view, imo, the nature of G-d, the Godhead, and many things.