Vote on your beliefs regarding baptism,

[Unveiled Artist]

Hm. Good explanation. Baptism by blood actually makes more sense (or wine?) than water in respect that Jesus blood saved you rather than water. I can see water baptism as necessary by tradition of the Church in scripture. However, I objectively rather than by experience speaking, I dont see how water is necessary to be baptized in the spirit. I know you quoted scripture above; and, it still baffles me. I do know that Jesus is in the EucharisT.

Forgive the comparison, baptism is like the Eucharist in that the hosts/matter (comp. unblessed water) were consecrated (blessed water) so when thr pentinent take the Eucharist (or baptized) they are in communion in Christ (born again).

The hosts and water are the matter.

Once the hosts are concecrated and water blessed they are no longer "matter" but the former Jesus and the later blessed.

So when the pentinent takes the Eucharist, they are in communion In Christ.

When the pentinent is baptized in water, He is blessed clean by the Holy Spirit.
--
Actually, here is a question that may clear it up. Is the water the "hosts" and once blessed whomever is baptized in it is baptized in Christ as one is in Communion with Him in the concecrated hosts?

If they are baptized by another person without water, I don't think that would do, but it would be God's call, I suppose, and would depend on the circumstances. The Church teaches about baptism by desire (described above), not based on tradition (that I know of), but on certain verses of scripture. For example, the penitent thief who asked Jesus to remember him when he entered into his kingdom had not been baptized and had no opportunity to be baptized at that point, but Jesus did not hesitate to save him. He received forgiveness along with the very same sanctifying grace that baptism would have provided.

And there are these, among others (not to mean that baptism is unnecessary for those to whom it is available):
"Every one therefore that shall confess me before men, I will also confess him before my Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 10:32)
"He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them; he it is that loveth me. And he that loveth me, shall be loved of my Father: and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him." (John 14:21)

And as it would pertain to baptism by blood (also mentioned above) for a martyr who had not been baptized:
"He that findeth his life, shall lose it: and he that shall lose his life for me, shall find it." (Matthew 10:39)

 

[Forever_Catholic]

Actually, here is a question that may clear it up. Is the water the "hosts" and once blessed whomever is baptized in it is baptized in Christ as one is in Communion with Him in the concecrated hosts?

Well, there's a similarity in that the water of baptism and the host are both matter of respective sacraments, but water by itself will not baptize anyone. Also, it's not transformed into anything different. It's the same water before, during, and after it has been used for baptism. A host is different because it becomes the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Christ when it is consecrated. It is transubstatiated.

 

[InChrist]

According to the scriptures, a person is saved an becomes a Christian the moment they believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for forgiveness of their sins. And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved...(Acts 16:30-31). As this and numerous other passages show it is belief and faith in Jesus Christ and His finished work on the cross which saves, not baptism. Baptism is an outward sign and public testimony that a person has placed their faith in Christ for forgiveness of their sins and eternal life.
I have been baptized three times. Once as an infant when I had no comprehension or understanding, much less belief in Jesus Christ and the second when I joined a cult. The last time I was baptized after I came to realize my need for Jesus Christ to forgive my sins and trusted Him as my Savior. The first two were unbilical baptism rituals and the final time was the real thing as a new believer identifying myself with Jesus Christ

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Thats similar with me. I was baptized in water the first time and water and spirit the second. Wouldnt you agree that your last baptism was not JUST a symbol but an initiation into Christ?

When one says baptism is just a symbol, it disregards the initiation that to-be christian has made to not only believe in his heart but in his actions as well.

Did you see yourself dying in Christ while you were baptised the last time or was it a symbol and had no importance in your Act of salvation?

According to the scriptures, a person is saved an becomes a Christian the moment they believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for forgiveness of their sins. And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved...(Acts 16:30-31). As this and numerous other passages show it is belief and faith in Jesus Christ and His finished work on the cross which saves, not baptism. Baptism is an outward sign and public testimony that a person has placed their faith in Christ for forgiveness of their sins and eternal life.
I have been baptized three times. Once as an infant when I had no comprehension or understanding, much less belief in Jesus Christ and the second when I joined a cult. The last time I was baptized after I came to realize my need for Jesus Christ to forgive my sins and trusted Him as my Savior. The first two were unbilical baptism rituals and the final time was the real thing as a new believer identifying myself with Jesus Christ

 

[Desert Snake]

Norman: Hi disciple, well, I guess I would answer that as someone who believes in Jesus Christ and his teachings. I know some people do not feel that one has to be baptized to be a
Christian, however, I look at baptism as making a covenant with Jesus to follow him, sins are forgiven and a newness of life occurs. Keeping in mind, this is my opinion and belief and I
honor and respect all people's belief's that differ from mine. If that didn't hit the nail with the hammer, let me know and I will try again.

Well, the reason I asked for your definition, is because the definition' of a ''Christian'', can vary. Sometimes, people think it means various ceremonies, or baptism, or a type of baptism, or a certain belief, what have you. We have to know each others definitions of these labels, if we are to have sensible discussion.

 

[Desert Snake]

According to the scriptures, a person is saved an becomes a Christian the moment they believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for forgiveness of their sins. And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved...(Acts 16:30-31). As this and numerous other passages show it is belief and faith in Jesus Christ and His finished work on the cross which saves, not baptism. Baptism is an outward sign and public testimony that a person has placed their faith in Christ for forgiveness of their sins and eternal life.
I have been baptized three times. Once as an infant when I had no comprehension or understanding, much less belief in Jesus Christ and the second when I joined a cult. The last time I was baptized after I came to realize my need for Jesus Christ to forgive my sins and trusted Him as my Savior. The first two were unbilical baptism rituals and the final time was the real thing as a new believer identifying myself with Jesus Christ

This makes sense. It also is logical if we are considering any sort of Jesus adherent in the same category. Personally, I would not put myself in the same category as someone who believes that a physical ritual would be ''doing'' anything, aside from an affirmation of faith, church adherence, etc. I do believe that there are other 'differences'' between my beliefs and those often taught in churches, for me to consider them, at least theologically, as different enough to be labeled differently. This might be a touchy subject, though.

 

[Desert Snake]

When one says baptism is just a symbol, it disregards the initiation that to-be christian has made to not only believe in his heart but in his actions as well.

I don't think so. The decision to take ones belief seriously is ultimately up to the person, the ceremony is just that, a ceremony. One could perform the ceremony with no intent of belief, etc., so clearly the ceremony is not the acting factor in ones confirmation, belief, what have you.

 

[Desert Snake]

I am pretty sure that one is free to reject the propitiation between God and man without the need for a water baptism.
Was that your question?

Huh?

Anyways, I was asking him about his opinion on salvation of people who refuse 'Christ'.

 

[Desert Snake]

OOPS, I cheated.

I voted 'Yes' to "A christian must be baptized to be a christian" because I believe that the internal renewal that comes from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is the defining element of both Salvation and being a Christian.
I voted 'Yes' to "A christian does not need to be baptized in order to be a christian" because I believe that a good old fashioned immersion in water is useful and important, but not absolutely essential to qualify one to the internal renewal that comes from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Technically, that is not what traditionally would occur at the water baptism. the water baptism is for washing away sins, the baptism in Spirit, is only 'connected' to the water baptism, by tradition, and invoking the trinity, or Jesus's name, at the time of the water baptism. People are ''combining'' the baptisms, essentially.

Sure, makes sense.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

In my opinion, the ceremony should. Why go through baptism when one isnt serious about the ceremony he wants to participate in? Why would baptists churches baptize anyone if they were "just" ceremonies and nothing more?

I don't think so. The decision to take ones belief seriously is ultimately up to the person, the ceremony is just that, a ceremony. One could perform the ceremony with no intent of belief, etc., so clearly the ceremony is not the acting factor in ones confirmation, belief, what have you.

 

[Desert Snake]

In my opinion, the ceremony should. Why go through baptism when one isnt serious about the ceremony he wants to participate in? Why would baptists churches baptize anyone if they were "just" ceremonies and nothing more?

Baptism isn't part of my beliefs. I can't answer for baptist churches, I'm not even baptized; My opinion would be, the ceremonies are part of the church tradition. So, just like any other ceremony, it is symbolic. I do believe that communion is slightly different from baptism, however. I don't think that just because someone isn't taking the baptism ''literally'', means that they aren't serious about their faith, however. The ceremony is a public statement of faith, and for those leaving other religions, a signifier that they are now Christians.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I understand. I dont know why symbolism just doesnt sound well to my ears when describing faith or even personal relationships. For example, I asked my Catholic friend who believes Jesus is the bread and wije we take in communion, "do you take His fingers and toes?" She exlaimed, No!... so I assume literal is a different definition in regards to baptism.

Its not a symbol. It doesnt just represent your (in general) initiation to be christian. Its an action like a kiss or hug that shows the person you love your devotion, willing to trust, ans love him or her. I honestly believe the "Catholic/pagan" mindset has turned people away from what a religious ritual means.

Baptism isn't part of my beliefs. I can't answer for baptist churches, I'm not even baptized; My opinion would be, the ceremonies are part of the church tradition. So, just like any other ceremony, it is symbolic. I do believe that communion is slightly different from baptism, however. I don't think that just because someone isn't taking the baptism ''literally'', means that they aren't serious about their faith, however. The ceremony is a public statement of faith, and for those leaving other religions, a signifier that they are now Christians.

Yes. Its a part of tradition. Its a rite of initiation that most religions have. I just dont understand how it is wrong. I understand why you personally dont agree with it. Thats completely different than saying Godnis against it.

Something I always wanted to know. Biblestudent gave me a good perspective on why some things shouldnt be part of christian worship. Out of all things, I communion and baptism are the most important. Yet people disagree. /shrugs/

 

[InChrist]

Thats similar with me. I was baptized in water the first time and water and spirit the second. Wouldnt you agree that your last baptism was not JUST a symbol but an initiation into Christ?

When one says baptism is just a symbol, it disregards the initiation that to-be christian has made to not only believe in his heart but in his actions as well.

Did you see yourself dying in Christ while you were baptised the last time or was it a symbol and had no importance in your Act of salvation?

I saw my baptism and the immersion into the water and then rising up out again as a symbolic picture of the spiritual reality which had already taken place ( about a month before) when I trusted Jesus Christ as my Savior, died to self, was risen to new life, and became a new creation in Christ (Romans 6:11; 2 Cor. 5:17). I feel that baptism was important because it was a testimony of my identification with and allegiance to Jesus Christ, but it did not play a part in salvation, since my salvation had taken place the moment I believed and baptism was simply an act of love and obedience to Jesus after my salvation.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

That is the same as the Church. Just we say that it is a part of our salvation not a result from it because its a full package. I see three parts of salvation: 1. Faith by believing (Ephesians 2:8-9;Galatians 3:26) 2. Baptism in water (jn 3:5; Mt 3:11) and spirit (Mt 3:11;1 Cor 12:12-13) 3. Carrying your cross. (Matthew 16:24-26; luke 9:23;mark 16:24) 4. Following Christ ( 1 corinthians 11:1-2; john 13:24;matt 4:19)

To be saved you Live your salvation. Baptism is an initiation into that spiritual journey. It is not a one time event. Thats how I feel baptism in water and in spirit is so important to christians as to call it just a symbol, for me to do that, is an insult that I DID get baptismed literally not symbolically.

I saw my baptism and the immersion into the water and then rising up out again as a symbolic picture of the spiritual reality which had already taken place ( about a month before) when I trusted Jesus Christ as my Savior, died to self, was risen to new life, and became a new creation in Christ (Romans 6:11; 2 Cor. 5:17). I feel that baptism was important because it was a testimony of my identification with and allegiance to Jesus Christ, but it did not play a part in salvation, since my salvation had taken place the moment I believed and baptism was simply an act of love and obedience to Jesus after my salvation.

 

[Norman]

Well, the reason I asked for your definition, is because the definition' of a ''Christian'', can vary. Sometimes, people think it means various ceremonies, or baptism, or a type of baptism, or a certain belief, what have you. We have to know each others definitions of these labels, if we are to have sensible discussion.

Norman: Hi disciple, my answer to you is the same. Here is some scripture to support my answer.

Matthew 3:11 I‍ indeed baptize‍ you with water unto repentance: but he‍ that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy‍ to bear: he shall baptize‍ you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: 13 ¶Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized‍ of him. 14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15 And‍ Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so‍ now: for thus it becometh us‍ to fulfil‍ all righteousness. Then he suffered him. 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway‍ out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit‍ of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice‍ from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

John 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler‍ of the Jews: 2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles‍ that thou doest, except God‍ be with him. 3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see‍ the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born‍ of water‍ and of‍ the Spirit, he cannot enter‍ into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind‍ bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. 9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify‍ that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

Acts 2:37 ¶Now when they heard this,‍ they were pricked‍ in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and‍ brethren, what‍ shall we do? 38 Then Peter said‍ unto them, Repent, and be baptized‍ every one of you in the name‍ of Jesus Christ for the remission‍ of sins, and ye shall receive the gift‍ of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise‍ is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar‍ off, even‍ as many as the Lord our God shall call. 40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save‍ yourselves from this untoward‍ generation. 41 ¶Then they that gladly received‍ his word‍ were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them‍ about three‍ thousand souls. 42 And they continued steadfastly‍ in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. (I put emphasis on "in the apostles doctrine.)

Source:

Holy Bible - King James Version - Read Online at LDS.org

 

[Sand Dancer]

If it makes you feel closer to God by doing it, go for it. If not, I don't think God will be saying, "Oh, that one's not mine. He didn't get wet."