Vote on your beliefs regarding baptism,

[Desert Snake]

Ive been taught all my life that Jesus, God or not, is the middle man between God the Father and the believer.

I believe that Jesu literally is G-d. Hence it is impossible for Him to a be a middleman, to Himself.

The closest way to describe ritual and belief is prayer. When I see any Christian pray around the dinner table, before heading on a car journey, etc they bow their heads, close their eyes, or maybe hold hands, etc.

The actions in itself does nothing. However, with prayer, the bowing is submissiveness or respect to God as with closing the eyes. Holding hands is sign of communion, togetherness love with family or like believers.

I see the same with religious rituals. Saying holding hands with my family is only a symbol of love is like an insult. The rituals Are the love. Just as a hug or a kiss. Its "part of" worship. Thats why its so important.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I believe that Jesu literally is G-d. Hence it is impossible for Him to a be a middleman, to Himself.

Yeah. I havnt heard that until I discovered internet forums years ago and the Church nailed it when confirmed. The first church (pentecostal) I went to gave me this kids phamplet that had the word God on thebright, a person on the left and a cross in the middle with Jesus name under it. It said the only way to get to God is through Jesus.

Something like this:

 

[atpollard]

Ive been taught all my life that Jesus, God or not, is the middle man between God the Father and the believer.

The closest way to describe ritual and belief is prayer. When I see any Christian pray around the dinner table, before heading on a car journey, etc they bow their heads, close their eyes, or maybe hold hands, etc.

The actions in itself does nothing. However, with prayer, the bowing is submissiveness or respect to God as with closing the eyes. Holding hands is sign of communion, togetherness love with family or like believers.

I see the same with religious rituals. Saying holding hands with my family is only a symbol of love is like an insult. The rituals Are the love. Just as a hug or a kiss. Its "part of" worship. Thats why its so important.

That was very well said.
(I disagree, seeing rituals as mostly just ritual, but I can respect a well articulated different opinion.)

 

[Unveiled Artist]

That was very well said.
(I disagree, seeing rituals as mostly just ritual, but I can respect a well articulated different opinion.)

Thank you. I greatly appreciate that.

 

[Forever_Catholic]

And who or what do you think washes away the sins of man? Is it the water or God?

God takes the sin away, but he wants water to be used in the procedure of baptism. John 3:5 - Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Water was sanctified forever for the purpose of baptizing when Jesus was baptized in the Jordan River by John the Baptist.

 

[atpollard]

God takes the sin away, but he wants water to be used in the procedure of baptism. John 3:5 - Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Water was sanctified forever for the purpose of baptizing when Jesus was baptized in the Jordan River by John the Baptist.

The story of Jonah carries the same symbolism ... Jonah rebels against God, spends 3 days below the water (dead?) and emerges restored with a second chance and a renewed drive to obey God.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

The story of Jonah carries the same symbolism ... Jonah rebels against God, spends 3 days below the water (dead?) and emerges restored with a second chance and a renewed drive to obey God.

Ooh, never thought of it that way. Thanks.

 

[JR Miller]

God takes the sin away, but he wants water to be used in the procedure of baptism. John 3:5 - Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Water was sanctified forever for the purpose of baptizing when Jesus was baptized in the Jordan River by John the Baptist.

So then we agree that the water has a purely symbolic role and that if God should choose, he could forgive sin without the use of water.

When Jesus forgave the sins of the paralyzed man in Capernaum, he wasn't said to have used water of any kind. This isn't the only example of such forgiveness in the Bible.

Do you get wet at the end of confession? And what of people with Aquagenic urticaria (water allergy)? Are we to believe that God condemned them to hell before their very birth or will condemn them for not being baptized?

 

[Glaurung]

So then we agree that the water has a purely symbolic role and that if God should choose, he could forgive sin without the use of water.

In the Catholic view, it is possible that under certain circumstances one can become baptised though desire, without having received a formal baptism though water.

The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament. 1258

For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament. 1259

However:

The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.60 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.61 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.62 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments. 1257

If you accept Christ, you are obliged to receive a proper baptism if it is available to you in order to be eligible for the promises of Christ.

 

[Desert Snake]

In the Catholic view, it is possible that under certain circumstances one can become baptised though desire, without having received a formal baptism though water.

The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament. 1258

For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament. 1259

However:

The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.60 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.61 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.62 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments. 1257

If you accept Christ, you are obliged to receive a proper baptism if it is available to you in order to be eligible for the promises of Christ.

What if someone doesn't accept Christ, what then.

 

[Forever_Catholic]

So then we agree that the water has a purely symbolic role and that if God should choose, he could forgive sin without the use of water.

I don't agree with the one detail that water has "a purely symbolic role." It can symbolize birth and life, of course, but there's more to water than that, both as it pertains to life on earth and from God's point of view. It has physical properties unlike any other other substance, and it can have extraphysical properties as well. At exorcisms, for example, holy water sprinkled on a possessed person causes pain in the demons within.

We know that water has a particular significance to God because it is so often mentioned in scripture. In fact, it's the very first substance mentioned in the Bible. "And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters." (Genesis 1:2)

We know that God uses it to spiritually cleanse, not that he has to. Ezekiel 36:25 - "Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you."

And we know that water has such a great significance to God that there is water in heaven as well as on earth.
Revelation 22:1 - "And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb."

 

[atpollard]

What if someone doesn't accept Christ, what then.

I am pretty sure that one is free to reject the propitiation between God and man without the need for a water baptism.
Was that your question?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I have a question on that. Isnt that conflicting with Mattew 3:11 "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire."?

While I agree with water baptism, Id say christians are baptised into Christ by the Holy Spirit. John used water baptism before Jesus came and once He did, water was not "needed" for repenting sins, only Christ.

Id say water baptism does nothing unless the person truelly repents of their sins. It is like going to confession without means of doing pentience and not sinning.

I was baptized by water in a former pentecostal church. I had to convince my parish priest to baptize me "again"; they did. Pentocostal baptism are valid baptisms; but, if you dont have an intent of repentence, the water can only bless you as the priest.

You repent or born again through Christ. How is the water "needed" to cleans one of sins when Christ does it alone?

God takes the sin away, but he wants water to be used in the procedure of baptism. John 3:5 - Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Water was sanctified forever for the purpose of baptizing when Jesus was baptized in the Jordan River by John the Baptist.

EDIT Another good example is taking the Eucharist. If the Eucharist is all that is needed (like water) to recieve Jesus, non catholic christians should recieve Jesus too.

The Eucharist or water cant do anything unless the former, the person believes Jesus is in the sacrament and, latter, the water cleans one of sin.

So water does not stand alone. How can you be baptized if you only been baptized in water and not in Christ?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I have a question for you. Why would the Catechism say you can be baptized by desire if no formal baptizm can be made yet say it is required that one be baptized in water in order to recieve Gods promises?

If you cant have a fornal baptizm, by catholic view, how does your desire exclude Christ requirement to be baptize in water?

In the Catholic view, it is possible that under certain circumstances one can become baptised though desire, without having received a formal baptism though water.

The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament. 1258

For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament. 1259

However:

The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.60 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.61 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.62 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments. 1257

If you accept Christ, you are obliged to receive a proper baptism if it is available to you in order to be eligible for the promises of Christ.

 

[Forever_Catholic]

he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire."?

There are different opinions among bible commentaries about what the fire refers to, but most associate it with the powers of the Holy Spirit that act upon the person being baptized (as the tongues of fire acted on the apostles when they received the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost).

John used water baptism before Jesus came and once He did, water was not "needed" for repenting sins, only Christ.

Baptism was made a sacrament by Jesus, which is for more than the repenting of sins, as John the Baptist had been doing them up to that point, but for the forgiveness of sins and to receive the Holy Spirit. Like all the seven sacraments Christ established, it is an outward sign of an inward grace. The outward sign has a specified form and matter. The form of baptism consists of the words that Jesus prescribed (I baptize thee in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.) The matter that he prescribed is water.

So if a baptism is performed by a person, water is needed because Jesus said that it is to be with water (and the Spirit). If it's the non-typical baptism by desire, as described above in Tlaloc's post, then God gives the grace of baptism without the form and matter.

 

[JR Miller]

I don't agree with the one detail that water has "a purely symbolic role." It can symbolize birth and life, of course, but there's more to water than that, both as it pertains to life on earth and from God's point of view. It has physical properties unlike any other other substance, and it can have extraphysical properties as well. At exorcisms, for example, holy water sprinkled on a possessed person causes pain in the demons within.

We know that water has a particular significance to God because it is so often mentioned in scripture. In fact, it's the very first substance mentioned in the Bible. "And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters." (Genesis 1:2)

We know that God uses it to spiritually cleanse, not that he has to. Ezekiel 36:25 - "Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you."

And we know that water has such a great significance to God that there is water in heaven as well as on earth.
Revelation 22:1 - "And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb."

I think we have to agree to disagree, at this point, but I have quite enjoyed the back and forth.

Cheers!

 

[Unveiled Artist]

If it's the non-typical baptism by desire, as described above in Tlaloc's post, then God gives the grace of baptism without the form and matter.

Thank you. You post explains a lot. I know according to the Church you need both. However, if one cannot be baptized in matter just in form and Spirit, are they stil baptized in Christ or is that a specific Church tradition? I ask about the tradition because I know you have to take the confession sacrament before baptism while in other Churches, the baptism covers both forgiveness and repentence.

 

[Shiranui117]

I have a question for you. Why would the Catechism say you can be baptized by desire if no formal baptizm can be made yet say it is required that one be baptized in water in order to recieve Gods promises?

If you cant have a fornal baptizm, by catholic view, how does your desire exclude Christ requirement to be baptize in water?

Because we are bound to the Sacraments, yet God is not, if that makes any sense. His mercy and love isn't restrained from those who, through no fault of their own, are unable to receive sacramental Baptism.

 

[Forever_Catholic]

I think we have to agree to disagree, at this point, but I have quite enjoyed the back and forth.

Me too. Thanks, JR.

 

[Forever_Catholic]

if one cannot be baptized in matter just in form and Spirit, are they stil baptized in Christ or is that a specific Church tradition?

If they are baptized by another person without water, I don't think that would do, but it would be God's call, I suppose, and would depend on the circumstances. The Church teaches about baptism by desire (described above), not based on tradition (that I know of), but on certain verses of scripture. For example, the penitent thief who asked Jesus to remember him when he entered into his kingdom had not been baptized and had no opportunity to be baptized at that point, but Jesus did not hesitate to save him. He received forgiveness along with the very same sanctifying grace that baptism would have provided.

And there are these, among others (not to mean that baptism is unnecessary for those to whom it is available):
"Every one therefore that shall confess me before men, I will also confess him before my Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 10:32)
"He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them; he it is that loveth me. And he that loveth me, shall be loved of my Father: and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him." (John 14:21)

And as it would pertain to baptism by blood (also mentioned above) for a martyr who had not been baptized:
"He that findeth his life, shall lose it: and he that shall lose his life for me, shall find it." (Matthew 10:39)