Voter ID. Do you agree or disagree?

[Secret Chief]

They have a problem (& cause problems)
that can be addressed by voter ID.

I'm getting horse and cart here. In the UK there is no meaningful problem (as detailed in another post). Voter ID is not to be addressed by bringing in something undemocratic, promoted by a political faction, since that would be giving them exactly what they want.

 

[Estro Felino]

So how would this approach be applied in countries that have no national identity card, and where people are eligible to vote in the district where they currently reside (even if they moved there the day before the election)?

Indeed. It is peculiar to a tiny country with a population of 60 million people.
Gigantic countries like the United States imply alternatives.

 

[Revoltingest]

I'm getting horse and cart here. In the UK there is no meaningful problem (as detailed in another post). Voter ID is not to be addressed by bringing in something undemocratic, promoted by a political faction, since that would be giving them exactly what they want.

Well, goodie for the UK...not having a problem.
But we do here. So it makes sense to address it.
ID doesn't strike me as "undemocratic".

 

[Secret Chief]

Well, goodie for the UK...not having a problem.
But we do here. So it makes sense to address it.
ID doesn't strike me as "undemocratic".

In isolation, I agree totally.

 

[ecco]

If you think bout this, it's really quite funny.

Republicans, who are paranoid about Big Brother watching, want secure voter IDs. The most secure ID would be a Federally issued identification of some sort. If everyone has to carry a Federally Issued ID, the Government could track all our movements with a microchip embedded in the card. It could then compare the location of the ID card to the location being broadcast by the chip installed along with the COVID vaccine. If the two are not in the same place, the FBI could locate the offender by honing in on the COVID microchip's location.

If the FBI detects a chip-in-a-card with no matching COVID chip, they would take the person into custody and inject a microchip into their body - no vaccine, just a microchip.

Are the Repubs who insist on strong IDs mandatory really so naive as to believe that microchip implants will never happen?

If Trump gets elected in 2024, he will probably push to have this implemented immediately. That way, when he runs in 2028, he will be able to get reports on everyone who voted against him.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Indeed. It is peculiar to a tiny country with a population of 60 million people.
Gigantic countries like the United States imply alternatives.

Or my country (Canada) with roughly half the population of yours.

We don't have national identity cards. What ID is available - and how a person acquires it - varies from province to province.

... and our federal government allows an option for people to vote with no ID at all under certain circumstances: if someone who has no accecptable ID at all, another eligible voter with proper ID who lives in the same district can formally attest to the identity, address and eligibility of the voter without ID.

 

[Polymath257]

Honestly I think republicans push too hard for voter ID but on the same hand democrats don't want it at all.

In my opinion both are afraid of illegal voters...
The repubs fear they will lose because of them
And the dems fear they can't win without them.
Prove me wrong.......

I don't think the problem is with illegal voters. it is with *poor* voters. Those who do NOT have a car and don't drive, who do not have the time to stand in line at the DMV because they have two or three jobs, those that don't want to interact with the *state* government on a regular basis.

Most of the things on your list are things many people *never* do. I have *never* had a hunting or fishing license (which appear several times, I might add--what is a turkey tag??) or bought a fuel injector, firearm, or ammunition.

Others are simply to prove age (getting into bars, for example). Known customers don't need an ID for these. Picking up kids from school? Getting a doctor? When did you need a government issued ID for those?

And, again, many poor people don't have the IDs simply because they *cost money*. In that way, this whole effort smells of the 'poll tax' that was historically used to keep poor blacks from voting.

So, my conclusion is that the republicans don't want poor blacks to vote. They are putting up barriers to make it harder for them to do so.

Prove me wrong.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I have to wonder if the photo ID advocates realize an important fact: you can get photo ID without photo ID.

Nobody's born with photo ID. Voter ID requirements in most places are similar to the ID that could be used to get yourself photo ID.

The idea that *photo* ID specifically does anything magical to prevent voter fraud is foolish. All it does is screen out people who don't or can't drive (either because they can't afford a car or they're medically prohibited from driving) and who don't have a passport (because they can't afford to travel Internationally).

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

So, my conclusion is that the republicans don't want poor blacks to vote. They are putting up barriers to make it harder for them to do so.

It'll be interesting to watch them change their tune in the years to come.

As the Republican base of middle-aged racists become old racists, many of them will lose their driver's licenses due to cataracts and heart conditions and decide not to renew their passports (since travel medical insurance gets really expensive after you've had a heart attack).

Once a big chunk of that base don't have current photo ID either, I expect that the GOP's "voter fraud" concerns will disappear.

 

[Secret Chief]

he will be able to get reports on everyone who voted against him

After prior threats about fines and imprisonment regarding voter fraud. More voter suppression. And if all goes well and he wins, he can lock up some democrat voters to prove they were committing offences. And spread more fear. Maybe postpone further elections until the issue is resolved. The lie that keeps on giving.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I'm a Canadian. We always bring ID to the polling station. Then again, Canadian elections are the same across the nation, run not by any party but by Elections Canada, which reports to Parliament through the Speaker of the House of Commons, who does not vote for any party except in a tie. (And a tie in a 5 party house plus independents is statistically extremely unlikely.)

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

New I'm a Canadian. We always bring ID to the polling station.

... but we don't require photo ID. We don't even require ID at all in narrow circumstances.

I think it's important to draw a distinction between what typically happens for most people and how things work for vulnerable and marginalized populations.

Here in Canada, we see voting as important enough that we've made room in our processes for someone to vote even if they're living on the street, don't have a driver's license, and don't even have a utility bill in their name.

OTOH, in the US, it seems like the Republicans are trying to enact their own take on the old French system of "active" versus "passive" citizens.

 

[Yazata]

Really? So anyone can walk in from anywhere and register to vote.

Here in California, registering to vote is just a matter of filling out a little card. They distribute them all over at places like public libraries and local government offices. Activists distribute them on college campuses. There are questions on the card about whether one is voting age or a US citizen, but it's entirely an "honor" system regarding whether the answers are truthful. IDs aren't required at any point. The cards contain language about how the one signing the card does so "under penalty of perjury", but I've never heard of anyone ever being prosecuted for lying on a voter registration card and I don't think that any attempt has ever been made to discover people who do.

It's a system tailor made for fraud and I think that we would be naive to think that there aren't people out there taking advantage of it.

 

[Yazata]

So why is anyone against voter ID?

"Everyone" isn't against it. But it's clear that many of the ruling elites who dominate the federal government and the mass media are.

Why are they against it? Probably because reducing voter fraud would threaten their margins of victory in many closely contested constituencies.

 

[ecco]

It's a system tailor made for fraud and I think that we would be naive to think that there aren't people out there taking advantage of it.

In another thread, For election fraud and conspiracy theory believers -- dump your evidence here!, someone posted this...

Here is evidence,
Voter Fraud Map: Election Fraud Database | The Heritage Foundation
​

Very few cases overall. Cases of a man voting in his dead mother's name and his own, would not affect margins of victory.

​

I'll let you judge the extent of the people taking advantage. Another thing to keep in mind, anyone who tries to vote twice faces severe penalties if caught. To me, it is not worth the risk. Perhaps to some Trump Sheeples it is.



In any case, preventing large blocks of people from voting is by far more dangerous than some people voting twice.

 

[74x12]

And yet apparently thousands of illegal immigrants have jobs. What is the point you are trying to make?

That's right. But you just made a bigger point. You know that people commit fraud to get a job and the employers cheat also because they need workers. And I don't blame people by the way. I'd do the same thing.

But that's not voting, All while admitting that there is a lot of fraud going on with workers; yet you still deny there is any problem with voter fraud and you still want to claim that it should be even easier to vote (than getting a job) instead of demanding a little bit of security against obvious rampant voter fraud. Just listen to yourself sometimes please.

 

[ecco]

But that's not voting, All while admitting that there is a lot of fraud going on with workers; yet you still deny there is any problem with voter fraud and you still want to claim that it should be even easier to vote (than getting a job) instead of demanding a little bit of security against obvious rampant voter fraud.

Here is a link that one of your fellow voter fraud proponents posted in another thread.

Voter Fraud Map: Election Fraud Database | The Heritage Foundation​

I'll rephrase what I posted in response...

You presented no evidence. You presented a Heritage Foundation synopsis showing 1328 proven cases of voter fraud.

If you had read the information yourself, you would have been able to tell us that those 1328 cases are for the years 1982 through 2021. Thirty-nine years.

If you had read the information yourself, you would have been able to tell us that those cases are from all different types of elected positions. County clerks, alderman, etc. Not just the 2020 presidential election.

Your response goes a long toward proving that claims of election fraud in the 2020 presidential election are all in the minds of the Sheeples and are not based on facts.


Now I'll offer the same challenge to you that I did to the original poster...
Why don't you go through the Heritage Foundation site and extract how many of those convictions actually pertained to the 2020 presidential election. Also, show how many illegal ballots were cast and for which candidate.

Your claims of "obvious rampant voter fraud" are nonsensical.

Just listen to yourself sometimes please.

I know what I write. When you have evidence of "obvious rampant voter fraud" then present it and I'll listen to you.


Just for your edification, early in 2016 Donald Trump started telling anyone who would listen that the only way he could lose to Hillary was if the election was rigged. He started this same mantra again in 2019. He said it so many times that people came to believe it. You believe it, but you cannot show any reason to believe it. What does that say about you and all those others?

 

[74x12]

Here is a link that one of your fellow voter fraud proponents posted in another thread.

Voter Fraud Map: Election Fraud Database | The Heritage Foundation​

I'll rephrase what I posted in response...

You presented no evidence. You presented a Heritage Foundation synopsis showing 1328 proven cases of voter fraud.

If you had read the information yourself, you would have been able to tell us that those 1328 cases are for the years 1982 through 2021. Thirty-nine years.

If you had read the information yourself, you would have been able to tell us that those cases are from all different types of elected positions. County clerks, alderman, etc. Not just the 2020 presidential election.

Your response goes a long toward proving that claims of election fraud in the 2020 presidential election are all in the minds of the Sheeples and are not based on facts.


Now I'll offer the same challenge to you that I did to the original poster...
Why don't you go through the Heritage Foundation site and extract how many of those convictions actually pertained to the 2020 presidential election. Also, show how many illegal ballots were cast and for which candidate.

Your claims of "obvious rampant voter fraud" are nonsensical.



I know what I write. When you have evidence of "obvious rampant voter fraud" then present it and I'll listen to you.


Just for your edification, early in 2016 Donald Trump started telling anyone who would listen that the only way he could lose to Hillary was if the election was rigged. He started this same mantra again in 2019. He said it so many times that people came to believe it. You believe it, but you cannot show any reason to believe it. What does that say about you and all those others?

I've been talking about voter fraud and rigged elections for a long time. Much longer than 2016 and Donald Trump. By the way I'm not a trump supporter at all. But that doesn't mean he wasn't right about voter fraud existing. He clearly said all that to pander to people who know about voter fraud already. Unfortunately he fooled a lot of people into thinking he actually was on their side.

The establishment used trump to identify political opponents and try to lump them together under trump banner so they could be isolated and nullified. It's sad that some well meaning people fell for it but a lot of us didn't even come close.

This is my problem with democrats. If they really have nothing to worry about when it comes to voter fraud then why do they fight against reasonable security measures? They've riled all their base up with accusations of racism etc. to fight against reasonable security measures but they aren't hiding anything. Don't worry.

 

[VoidCat]

You can't even get a job in USA without a photo ID.

I could also point out not everyone can function well enough to get a job. You don't need in the US a photo ID to get Social security for disability money I didn't. As I pointed out earlier I was born in the US.

 

[Polymath257]

That's right. But you just made a bigger point. You know that people commit fraud to get a job and the employers cheat also because they need workers. And I don't blame people by the way. I'd do the same thing.

But that's not voting, All while admitting that there is a lot of fraud going on with workers; yet you still deny there is any problem with voter fraud and you still want to claim that it should be even easier to vote (than getting a job) instead of demanding a little bit of security against obvious rampant voter fraud. Just listen to yourself sometimes please.

yes, it should be easier to vote than to get a job.

For example, a jobless person should be allowed to vote. So should a homeless person.

Ever try to get a government ID when you have no home?