War: the Pope says that mankind is in danger; strive for peace

[YoursTrue]

Seriously? They get run over by busses, They accumulate toxins, they accumulate harmful genetic mutations, chromosomal telomeres shrink, bacteria and viruses invade.
Reality isn't patterned on our everyday experience. The Real Reality, underlying our everyday world, isn't deterministic, it doesn't correspond to our everyday experience. At the quantum level, underlying Reality, things get very 'chancy'. Cause and effect, and 'reasons' for things don't apply.
They kill each other; they don't murder each other.
Why is "murder" such a difficult concept for you?

I think in the law system at least in some parts of the world, there are different grades of murder. Like 1st degree and 2nd degree. One such explanation is: "First Degree Murder: An intentional killing by means of poison, or by lying in wait, or by any other kind of willful, deliberate and premeditated action. Second Degree Murder: Any premeditated murder or felony murder that does not involve special circumstances. torture or especially heinous murders." First Degree Murder vs Second Degree Murder - Difference and Comparison | Diffen
Quite a difference, I would say, between gorillas and lions and their killings via the theory of evolution and humans, would you say?

 

[Valjean]

So they don't die naturally, like old age?

There is no such medical condition as "old age." It's a catch-all diagnosis when no autopsy is indicated. There's always an organic dysfunction.

As far as murder it's interesting that lawyers take their chances on jurors, at least in the United States.

?????????? I don't get your point.

 

[Valjean]

So animals,according to you, kill each other naturally via the method of the process of evolution,

They kill each other through the method of asphyxiation, physical insult, envenomation, drowning, &al. How are you seeing "the process of evolution" in this?

even like a snake swallowing an animal whole, no judgment there, right? That's natural by the ToE, but humans...well, they're in a different category of consciousness, right.

YT, I honestly have no idea what you're talking about, here. Evidently you disagree with me about something, but I can't figure out what. Can you succinctly summarize what you see as our disagreement?

 

[Valjean]

I think in the law system at least in some parts of the world, there are different grades of murder. Like 1st degree and 2nd degree. One such explanation is: "First Degree Murder: An intentional killing by means of poison, or by lying in wait, or by any other kind of willful, deliberate and premeditated action. Second Degree Murder: Any premeditated murder or felony murder that does not involve special circumstances. torture or especially heinous murders." First Degree Murder vs Second Degree Murder - Difference and Comparison | Diffen
Quite a difference, I would say, between gorillas and lions and their killings via the theory of evolution and humans, would you say?

I still don't understand this idea of killing "via the ToE." What relationship are you talking about?

Yes, there are different legal degrees of homicide, but animals aren't usually regarded as legal agents, They're not regarded as legally competent. Murder, as a crime, doesn't really apply to them.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

This thread is about the religious implications of war.

And in that thread, you asked a question "Do you think war is a good idea to settle international disputes?" in post 167.

And I posted a response in post 180 and then asked you a question.
That's when the subject changing started.

But again: oh well.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

This thread is about the religious implications of war.
The Pope spoke as head of state, and as religious leader.

Yeah, but he is not the religion or the head of humanity.

 

[YoursTrue]

I still don't understand this idea of killing "via the ToE." What relationship are you talking about?

Yes, there are different legal degrees of homicide, but animals aren't usually regarded as legal agents, They're not regarded as legally competent. Murder, as a crime, doesn't really apply to them.

So who made murder as a crime? Animals? or humans? Or human-animals, because according to the ToE, humans are considered animals, aren't they? Therefore, how did murder become a crime, since animals like lions do kill other animals, including other lions.

 

[YoursTrue]

Yeah, but he is not the religion or the head of humanity.

So then -- what power does he have over those who claim to be part of the religion he supposedly heads up?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

So who made murder as a crime? Animals? or humans? Or human-animals, because according to the ToE, humans are considered animals, aren't they? Therefore, how did murder become a crime, since animals like lions do kill other animals, including other lions.

When we started calling a killing a murder.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

So then -- what power does he have over those who claim to be part of the religion he supposedly heads up?

All the power that comes from other people doing as he says.

 

[YoursTrue]

Through the method of asphyxiation, physical insult, envenomateion, drowning, &al. How are you seeing "the process of evolution" in this? YT, I honestly have no idea what you're talking about, here. Evidently you disagree with me about something, but I can't figure out what. Can you succinctly summarize what you see as our disagreement?

I am asking why it is you think animals such as lions do not have trials for killing other lions and deer, etc. Why is that? I'll give a guess that you might think is true, correct me if I'm wrong: (They aren't as "developed" as humans, according again to you-know-what -- the ToE.)
So I'll put it as succinctly as possible: it's OK for lions and whales to kill others, no court trials for them, why??

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

At that time it wasn't considered incest.

Eum.... what "incest" is, is not really a matter of opinion.
What you actually meant to say is that in that fictional past, it wasn't considered to be a problem to engage in incest. And I say "fictional" past, because well... you know... it never occurred.

At no point in human history, were there only 4 individuals. As demonstrated by the human genome.
Such a massive genetic bottleneck would be detectable in extant DNA.

Humans do have a genetic bottleneck in their past though. But this goes back 10s of thousands of years (70.000-ish if memory serves me right) and it likely is related to Toba volcano eruption.
But that bottleneck puts the total human population at that lowest point to several thousands.

4 people is biologically not sustainable. A population of just 4 is doomed to extinction due to the absurd lack of genetic variation. And that is even assuming the 4 aren't related. It only gets worse if they are a single family of 2 parents and 2 children.

Generally speaking, a population of some 200 is a minimum to have a shot to survive. And even then it's going to be VERY difficult. Biologically, I mean. Simply due to the lack of genetic variation.

Later on it was. Because they lived longer

Doesn't matter how long one lives. It's reproduction that is the problem with incest. Doesn't matter if you live to 20 or 500 (lol btw). If you make kids with your sibling, there's enormous chance of genetic problems. Regardless of your lifespan.

and either way -- you think maybe there were lots of evolved humans that just happened to have sex with distant relatives keeping the human race going?

Populations evolve, not individuals.

How many times have people told you to go read / study up on evolution before trying to argue against it?
I have literally NEVER seen you make an argument against evolution without misrepresenting the theory first.

Literally EVERY objection to evolution theory you have EVER given, was based on absurdly false premises.

But you don't care, do you?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

But -- you think that interbreeding somehow a long time ago did the job, is that right?

No.

Again, you might want to study up on evolution theory.
It might help you in avoiding to post such stupid things about it.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

So then, how long you figure murder and war has been going on?

As long as humans have existed and gathered in social groups..

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I think that the world is a mess and only God can change it. And He will. Do animals die? Are they born to die eventually? I should say, per the ToE, is it natural that animals die? Maybe natural selection?

Everything dies. It's a natural consequence of being alive.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

They don't? They why DO organisms die? And of course, how are they originated? Kind of like the 'big bang' where something was before it exploded but it just was? Is that it? Listen -- there is a reason that anything is 'there.' And it's not by sheer chance.

You are all over the place.
All based on strawmen and willful ignorance.

You are not making any sense.

Do animals murder or kill one another? What do you think?

They kill.

"Murder" is a legal term.

 

[YoursTrue]

When we started calling a killing a murder.

Thanks for offering...
hopefully @Valjean will answer that, although I'll just say that lions don't have court sessions figuring out if it's "wrong" to kill another lion, do they? So since the Pope wants mankind to get together in peace -- my oh my -- going back again to the ToE which he says is ok to believe in, do you think maybe man's brain will be different after a long while, of course, those that have died in any way according to the ToE are already dead. And do you think Catholics who profess to honor the Pope will listen? What exactly is the Pope talking about? How many Catholics in Russia and Ukraine?

 

[Valjean]

So who made murder as a crime?

A crime is defined by a legal code. The legal code is written by people. The crime of murder is a human creation. Horses and hedgehogs have never been known to type out a code of laws.

Animals? or humans? Or human-animals, because according to the ToE, humans are considered animals, aren't they? Therefore, how did murder become a crime, since animals like lions do kill other animals, including other lions.

A crime is a violation of a prohibition in a formal legal code. Lions don't write formal legal codes. Only one animal writes formal legal codes. That does not change our biological status to 'non-animal'.

I still don't see the point you're trying to make in all this. Is there a major premise here, somewhere?

 

[Valjean]

When we started calling a killing a murder.

We never called killing, per se, murder. We don't call the killing of chickens or potatoes murder. We don't call the indiscriminate killing of men, women and children in war murder. Murder is only the killing of another within the legal jurisdiction of a specific legal system.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

We never called killing, per se, murder. We don't call the killing of chickens or potatoes murder. We don't call the indiscriminate killing of men, women and children in war murder. Murder is only the killing of another within the legal jurisdiction of a specific legal system.

Yeah, I oversimplified it.