War: the Pope says that mankind is in danger; strive for peace

[Valjean]

So then -- what power does he have over those who claim to be part of the religion he supposedly heads up?

Moral suasion.

 

[Valjean]

I am asking why it is you think animals such as lions do not have trials for killing other lions and deer, etc. Why is that? I'll give a guess that you might think is true, correct me if I'm wrong: (They aren't as "developed" as humans, according again to you-know-what -- the ToE.)

They're quite as developed as humans, but animals develop/evolve the features that best adapt them to the environment and lifestyle -- the "ecological niche" -- they find themselves in. Lions don't live in large, diverse, stratified societies, with specialization.

Lions never had the bodies or skills needed for such a lifestyle. They were thriving, so there was no pressure to develop the mental, linguistic or social skills hominins needed to survive; no need to change.

Useless features rarely evolve in a species. They're deleterious and a threat to survival.

So I'll put it as succinctly as possible: it's OK for lions and whales to kill others, no court trials for them, why??

Lions aren't moral agents. They are obligate carnivores and biologically locked into their lifestyles. They have no physical, mental or moral options, nor do they have the physical or mental capacities for such social institutions.

You really don't understand how evolution works, or what morality is.

I blame this on religion -- a moral crutch that obviates the need for individuals to develop an understanding of morality or their own personal, internalized moral codes.
It's sad......

 

[Valjean]

@Valjean - death by lion to lion, for instance, is different according to you than death by human to human, right?

Yes. Lions aren't moral agents. They have neither choice not options in this behavior.

 

[YoursTrue]

Yes. Lions aren't moral agents. They have neither choice not options in this behavior.

Ah so would you say it's a brain expansion situation by means of the ToE between lions, gorillas and humans? Humans of course looking at murder or killing and death in a rather different way than elephants, birds, etc?

 

[YoursTrue]

We never called killing, per se, murder. We don't call the killing of chickens or potatoes murder. We don't call the indiscriminate killing of men, women and children in war murder. Murder is only the killing of another within the legal jurisdiction of a specific legal system.

In other words, the human moral code for many is that death by bomb or war weapons is ok if the national leader says go get 'em it's ok because your country is being threatened. That's moral killing even if babies are killed, that's ok, right?

 

[YoursTrue]

Yes. Lions aren't moral agents. They have neither choice not options in this behavior.

So they haven't evolved to a different mental concept, isn't that right?

 

[Valjean]

Ah so would you say it's a brain expansion situation by means of the ToE between lions, gorillas and humans? Humans of course looking at murder or killing and death in a rather different way than elephants, birds, etc?

Don't know how you connect this to the ToE. Humans have behavioral and dietary options. They're not locked into an obligate lifestyle. They're moral agents.

So they haven't evolved to a different mental concept, isn't that right?

???????? "Different mental concept?" Please explain.

 

[Valjean]

In other words, the human moral code for many is that death by bomb or war weapons is ok if the national leader says go get 'em it's ok because your country is being threatened.

Democracies don't have leaders, they have 'representatives', answerable to The People. "Just following orders" violates international law.

Loyalty to country leads to grievous sin if "the country" makes an immoral choice. We are individually responsible for our actions. Jesus condemns patriotism. Loyalty should be to abstract moral principles only.

That's moral killing even if babies are killed, that's ok, right?

Death by war isn't a moral code. It's a behavior. "Just following orders" is never justified, as was established in the Nuremberg trials. We are individually responsible for our acts.

 

[Valjean]

Ah so would you say it's a brain expansion situation by means of the ToE between lions, gorillas and humans? Humans of course looking at murder or killing and death in a rather different way than elephants, birds, etc?

I don't see how you're bringing the ToE into this.
Other animals aren't moral agents. They have no behavioral options. They have no insight into the consequences of their actions.

 

[Valjean]

Ah so would you say it's a brain expansion situation by means of the ToE between lions, gorillas and humans? Humans of course looking at murder or killing and death in a rather different way than elephants, birds, etc?

Yes, we do look at killing differently fromother animal. This is a recent feature in humans.
"Brain expansion?" I see it as a matter of behavioral options and insight.

 

[YoursTrue]

A crime is defined by a legal code. The legal code is written by people. The crime of murder is a human creation. Horses and hedgehogs have never been known to type out a code of laws.

A crime is a violation of a prohibition in a formal legal code. Lions don't write formal legal codes. Only one animal writes formal legal codes. That does not change our biological status to 'non-animal'.

I still don't see the point you're trying to make in all this. Is there a major premise here, somewhere?

Do bears have a legal code defining killing insofar as degrees go?

 

[YoursTrue]

I don't see how you're bringing the ToE into this.
Other animals aren't moral agents. They have no behavioral options. They have no insight into the consequences of their actions.

Why not? Let me guess -- their DNA isn't like human DNA? Only guessing here as to what you believe.

 

[YoursTrue]

Yes, we do look at killing differently fromother animal. This is a recent feature in humans.
"Brain expansion?" I see it as a matter of behavioral options and insight.

Oh, just a slight difference, hmm? (lol, sorry, there goes my laugh again.) The courts and jails are filled with decision-makers. True that bears hibernate and humans do not. That's a matter of behavioral options, you think?

 

[YoursTrue]

Yes, we do look at killing differently fromother animal. This is a recent feature in humans.
"Brain expansion?" I see it as a matter of behavioral options and insight.

I would have to agree that it's not a matter of how large an organism's brain is.