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[Riverwolf]

I doubt that people would be trying to downplay it to the degree that they do if it didn't involve a revered religious figure.

Your doubts are well founded. When it's the guy down the street, people call for a lynching.

And completely wrong. The guy down the street is still alive, and subject to our laws (and I don't call for a lynching; I call for due process). Mohammad was an (admittedly very loud) guy down the street who lived 1400 years ago. I'm not a Muslim, and suffice to say that my opinions about him as a person and religious leader are irrelevant, so I have no real connection to the guy.

Besides, I already condemned it when a God did it (at least by implication.)

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Your experience only encompasses modern nine-year-old girls in modern settings; therefore, they cannot apply to nine-year-old girls 1400 years ago.

And you haven't provided any basis or evidence why there would be any difference between nine year olds getting screwed by adult males now or 1400 years ago.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Logically, the number of birthdays we've celebrated is, ultimately, meaningless to nature.

Indeed, it doesn't specifically matter that a girl is nine, but rather that all nine year olds are very much children to the eyes of any pyschologically healthy adult male, and thus they would have no desire to bang them.

 

[Riverwolf]

And you haven't provided any basis or evidence why there would be any difference between nine year olds getting screwed by adult males now or 1400 years ago.

Much of our psychology develops depending on the society we grow up in. (nature vs. nurture) This would explain why accepted morals vary from region to region, and from time to time. If this is a time period and a region where child marriage was common, then Aisha may very well have been expecting, and perhaps even joyfully anticipating, the event. It causes problems today because girls aren't expecting marriage until they "grow up", and often don't know about sex until puberty (at least, we weren't officially taught about it until 5th grade.) But I don't expect that you can deny that most girls, when they reach puberty, will tend to sexually desire men older than they are.

BTW, I did edit that post with the question of what form your experience takes.

 

[Riverwolf]

Indeed, it doesn't specifically matter that a girl is nine, but rather that all nine year olds are very much children to the eyes of any pyschologically healthy adult male

Nowadays. Prove that this was always the case.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I'm not a Muslim, and suffice to say that my opinions about him as a person and religious leader are irrelevant, so I have no real connection to the guy.

Yes, many people defend any perceived attacks on any religion due to a misguided attachment to certain political correctness ideas in an attempt to feel like fair, balanced, and good people. I would expect many non-muslims to go through the same mental gymnastics.

 

[Riverwolf]

Yes, many people defend any perceived attacks on any religion due to a misguided attachment to certain political correctness ideas in an attempt to feel like fair, balanced, and good people. I would expect many non-muslims to go through the same mental gymnastics.

What are mental gymnastics, anyway? That term seems to be thrown around by the side that's losing out to logic.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Much of our psychology develops depending on the society we grow up in. (nature vs. nurture) This would explain why accepted morals vary from region to region, and from time to time. If this is a time period and a region where child marriage was common, then Aisha may very well have been expecting, and perhaps even joyfully anticipating, the event. It causes problems today because girls aren't expecting marriage until they "grow up", and often don't know about sex until puberty (at least, we weren't officially taught about it until 5th grade.) But I don't expect that you can deny that most girls, when they reach puberty, will tend to sexually desire men older than they are.

BTW, I did edit that post with the question of what form your experience takes.

You still haven't provided and basis or evidence.

 

[Riverwolf]

You still haven't provided and basis or evidence.

And neither have you. (Since you don't seem to consider logic a basis.)

Therefore, both of our arguments are equally valid. I prefer to side with the "innocent until proven guilty" side.

 

[Skeptisch]

It is icky. But the ick factor alone isn't enough to judge; we must use logic and reason, as well.

Well said and applicable to all of us. Kilgore Trout and Father Heathen seem to use it very well.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

And neither have you. (Since you don't seem to consider logic a basis.)

Therefore, both of our arguments are equally valid. I prefer to side with the "innocent until proven guilty" side.

Your inability to understand my arguments doesn't make them ilogical or invalid. But if you think that you could be conditioned to be sexually attracted to a child, feel free. I know that I couldn't, and such behaviors are not based on the biological motivations of sexual attraction, and, are thus distorted psychologically.

You're somehow arguing that the biological motivations of sexual attraction can be conditioned out. This being the case, I assume that you think that homosexuals should then be able to be conditioned to be attracted to members of the same sex, particularly in societies where heterosexuality is the norm. I mean, if you're being consistent with your "logic."

 

[Riverwolf]

I just thought of what could be the deciding question in this matter, but I don't think anyone who would be able to answer it is still reading. Nevertheless, I wish to ask it.

How did the society at the time, as well as his followers, react to the marriage?

 

[Riverwolf]

Your inability to understand my arguments doesn't make them ilogical or invalid. But if you think that you could be conditioned to be sexually attracted to a child, feel free. I know that I couldn't,

And neither could I. I'm 23. My sexual attractions are already set to women of my own age, and specifically to my girlfriend. Based on my psychology and cultural norms, there is no way for me to become sexually attracted to a child sans torture. (And even then, I have Picard's four lights as my inspiration to not give in. ^_^)

You're somehow arguing that the biological motivations of sexual attraction can be conditioned out. This being the case, I assume that you think that homosexuals should then be able to be conditioned to be attracted to members of the same sex, particularly in societies where heterosexuality is the norm. I mean, if you're being consistent with your "logic."

You seem to be under the assumption that this sort of "conditioning" is changing something that already exists. It's not. However, here's what my point is: if Aisha was already sexually maturing into puberty, she was essentially a teenager (i.e., no longer a "child"). Considering the fact that women in various cultures throughout history (and, unfortunately, in some cases still today) married as young as 12 in some instances, many men would have been sexually attracted to budding young women.

 

[Father Heathen]

It is icky. But the ick factor alone isn't enough to judge.

When it comes to sex with children, don't you think it's the victimization and exploitation that causes outrage and not some "ickyness" factor?

 

[Riverwolf]

When it comes to sex with children, don't you think it's the victimization and exploitation that causes outrage and not some "ickyness" factor?

How do we know she was being victimized and exploited?

 

[Father Heathen]

How did the society at the time, as well as his followers, react to the marriage?

How did her prepubescent body and psyche react to being penetrated by a full grown man? It's the actual effects, impact and results of actions and not the social attitudes towards them that are relevant.

 

[Riverwolf]

How did her prepubescent body and psyche react to being penetrated by a full grown man?

How do we know she was still prepubescent? I keep saying, she may have entered puberty early.

It's the actual effects, impact and results of actions and not the social attitudes towards them that are relevant.

But the social attitudes will play into the effects, impact, and results.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

You seem to be under the assumption that this sort of "conditioning" is changing something that already exists. It's not. However, here's what my point is: if Aisha was already sexually maturing into puberty, she was essentially a teenager (i.e., no longer a "child"). Considering the fact that women in various cultures throughout history (and, unfortunately, in some cases still today) married as young as 12 in some instances, many men would have been sexually attracted to budding young women.

I can only assume your knowledge and experience with nine year olds is limited. A nine year old would never appear as anything approaching a "budding young woman." There is a vast difference between 12 and 9, even with 12 being extremely young for marriage despite the time and culture. Where exactly would you draw the line between budding woman and child? Is eight years old okay? Seven? Five?

 

[Riverwolf]

I can only assume your knowledge and experience with nine year olds is limited. A nine year old would never appear as anything approaching a "budding young woman." There is a vast difference between 12 and 9, even with 12 being extremely young for marriage despite the time and culture. Where exactly would you draw the line between budding woman and child? Is eight years old okay? Seven? Five?

Ever hear of this?

Precocious Puberty

I have had experience with children: I used to work at a local Boys and Girls Club. Yes, I, too, have never seen a nine-year-old girl budding into puberty, and in my memories from that age, I don't recall any specific girl budding before 11 or 12. (But, then again, I didn't pay much attention.) But that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

I also took a few ECE classes at my local college, though they primarily dealt with VERY early childhood, so I'm not sure if that would even apply.

I also keep reading that in rural countries, children develop much quicker than in developed countries. I think it's reasonable to assume that this would be more common 1400 years ago.

And again: you keep alluding to your own experience: I ask again: what is it? Are you a therapist? An elementary school teacher?

 

[Skeptisch]

Father Heathen’s question was:
When it comes to sex with children, don't you think it's the victimization and exploitation that causes outrage and not some "ickyness" factor?

How do we know she was being victimized and exploited?

I seem to remember someone asking for reason and logic! Have a good day.:run: