Was Eve justified in eating of the tree of knowledge?

[Mr Cheese]

What most Christians over look today is that the apple was seen by all early orthodox followers of Christ as allegory for Carnal Knowledge or sex. It was having sex that brought sin into the world. This is why so many early Christians were anti sex. This is why Augustine ( the most influential christian theologian in the western church) said “The only good thing that comes out of marriage is more virgins.”

Well no1 Augustine was supremely BITTER,, beginnign hsi spiritual life as a Manichaean and essentially much of his wiritings are finger pinting, hardly the act of a wonderfully holy person....

Virgin, the term has many meanings....not just hymens....
Of course the Manichaeans largely supposedly abhorred sex. Of course there are texts that discuss manichaean sex rites (albeit very briefly) . What is clear is that the Manichaeans had different levels, from "junior" to "master" so to speak...and each level had their own rights. Afterall Manichaeans had some very strict conducts....


As far as I can tell there were only two sets of beliefs in the early orthodox church on the subject of sex:

-Sex is always bad.
Tatian the Assyrian (c. 120–180) said that matrimony is a symbol of the tying of the flesh to the perishable world and ascribed the invention of matrimony to the devil. He also said after Adam and eve eat the forbidden fruit ( sounds like sex to me) they became sexually aware. This is why they put there clothes on. Though sex sin entered the world. In fact Augustine believed that being sexually aroused is the clearest proof of the effect of original sin.

-Sex is ok as long as its not for fun.
The great christian thinkers Clement and Irenaeus believed that the above view was wrong, they believed the first sin was doing it too early because of sexual desire. As long as you have sex only for procreation and not lust (sexual desire) it is not a sin.

I am not anti Christian I am not saying this to put down Christians. I have the highest respect for the early Christians. They were willing to give up there all to help others. This is the truth of church History it should be looked at.

While sex did indeed become abhorrent, you do have to remember it is the Orthodox churches (not catholic) that still to this day, have married priests
Texts such as the imitation of christ, the ladder of divine ascent approached extreme asceticism.....

Of course what one has to largely remember is to take these texts and ideas with an eye to reading between the lines. Of course literalism became the mainstay of Christianity (in large part)...

It is quite Ironic that the witch finders became exactly that which they fought against

The Jews of course seeign the christians runnign around saying the body is evil, penises are of the debil.... decided to act the exact opposite..It is largely from the Zoharic period that the Jews decide its time to embrace sex, big time. Of course this is in turn largely influenced by Islam and the Sufic approach to the divine as the relationship between God and man as sexual partners....

just some ideas

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

While sex did indeed become abhorrent, you do have to remember it is the Orthodox churches (not catholic) that still to this day, have married priests

While sex did indeed become abhorrent, you do have to remember it is the Orthodox churches (not catholic) that still to this day, have married priests

I am sorry for my difficulty in writing skills. When I used the term Orthodox I did not mean Greek or Russian Orthodox churches. I meant the word in the sense of straight thought or the view that came to be recognized as “the official christian view” later in church history.

 

[Greatest I am]

Even if the actions and influence of that loyal opposition then becomes the root cause for every child being birthed as a "sinner", along with pretty much all of the unspeakable evil in the world, along with "justifying" the eternal torture of people in Hell?

If you believe in God at all, then you have to trust His plan when He created good, evil and sin.
If not then for sure you will see a plan gone bad.
If we are born sinners it is not because of some original sin. God does not punish the children of the sinner.
If we are born sinners it is because God wants us to sin.
He does. That then this.
2 Peter 3:9 KJ
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

The only reason the tree was placed there and the only reason god spoke to them of the tree was to tempt the curiosity that he placed in them. Along with allowing the snake to be there. Curiosity and skepticism are natural, if God did not provide a convincing enough argument to not eat from the tree then he should only blame himself. I think this is just one of the stories in the bible that tries to teach us to bury our curiosity and skepticism. Obviously to keep people believing.

Constantine was a dictator so for his Bible to have a sit down and shut up flavor is not unexpected.

Regards
DL

 

[EtuMalku]

If you believe in God at all, then you have to trust His plan when He created good, evil and sin.
If not then for sure you will see a plan gone bad.
If we are born sinners it is not because of some original sin. God does not punish the children of the sinner.
If we are born sinners it is because God wants us to sin.
He does. That then this.
2 Peter 3:9 KJ
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Regards
DL

I believe in this Abrahamic God but there is no way that I trust it.
I see a plan foiled.
This God punishes relentlessly, also murders, rapes, pillages, enslaves and takes the lives of unborn children.
Sin is relative. One man's sin is another man's virtue.

 

[Greatest I am]

What most Christians over look today is that the apple was seen by all early orthodox followers of Christ as allegory for Carnal Knowledge or sex. It was having sex that brought sin into the world. This is why so many early Christians were anti sex. This is why Augustine ( the most influential christian theologian in the western church) said “The only good thing that comes out of marriage is more virgins.”

As far as I can tell there were only two sets of beliefs in the early orthodox church on the subject of sex:

-Sex is always bad.
Tatian the Assyrian (c. 120–180) said that matrimony is a symbol of the tying of the flesh to the perishable world and ascribed the invention of matrimony to the devil. He also said after Adam and eve eat the forbidden fruit ( sounds like sex to me) they became sexually aware. This is why they put there clothes on. Though sex sin entered the world. In fact Augustine believed that being sexually aroused is the clearest proof of the effect of original sin.

-Sex is ok as long as its not for fun.
The great christian thinkers Clement and Irenaeus believed that the above view was wrong, they believed the first sin was doing it too early because of sexual desire. As long as you have sex only for procreation and not lust (sexual desire) it is not a sin.

I am not anti Christian I am not saying this to put down Christians. I have the highest respect for the early Christians. They were willing to give up there all to help others. This is the truth of church History it should be looked at.

I have a hard time giving respect to a Church that began by killing off competition and burning their books.
Can you trust a Church that has been bought by a dictator?

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

GIA ~

Biblically, Eve was aware of what God had asked her to do and not do. she had freewill, and the option to listen to God rather than to anyone else.

as it turned out, the tree didn't actually give either of them a God-like understanding of good and evil as the devil had promised, or make them better people. it made them feel guilty, anxious, exposed, and alien from God. what they needed to know about the world God had made for them, God had shown them. the Bible says that God would come down and walk with Adam and Eve in the cool of the evening. heck, when you're literally walking with God and talking with God and everything is beautiful and awesome, who needs anything more?

the reason the first humans ate from that tree is because they wanted something they didn't already have. they wanted more than what God had given them, and they believed they could simply bypass God's instructions to get to it. surely God didn't really know what was best..... and surely things could only get better and more interesting if they went ahead and ate it.

not all things our ours to know, or have. just because something is possible or sounds good, doesn't mean it's benefcial.

So are moral sense is not beneficial for us?
I hope that is not your final answer. Yuk.

I like my moral sense and would not give it up.
Would you stop Eve and lose yours?

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

I believe in this Abrahamic God but there is no way that I trust it.
I see a plan foiled.
This God punishes relentlessly, also murders, rapes, pillages, enslaves and takes the lives of unborn children.
Sin is relative. One man's sin is another man's virtue.

If you read the Bible literally you will see it that way. I do not and see a winning God. Not some genocidal looser.

Regards
DL

 

[Humanistheart]

If you read the Bible literally you will see it that way. I do not and see a winning God. Not some genocidal looser.

Regards
DL

Anyone can be made out to be better than they are if you only look at, or in the case read, the good qualities. If I applied the same effort to inventing excuses to myself as people apply to their god's immoral actions I could be called perfect too.

 

[Scott1]

Constantine was a dictator so for his Bible to have a sit down and shut up flavor is not unexpected.

Constantine had a Bible?

 

[Katzpur]

Sin is relative. One man's sin is another man's virtue.

If you really believe this, why don't you believe it also applies to the Abrahamic God?

 

[Sunstone]

Eve was an extremist.

 

[Katzpur]

Eve was an extremist.

Eve was a strong, courageous, intelligent woman.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

I have a hard time giving respect to a Church that began by killing off competition and burning their books.
Can you trust a Church that has been bought by a dictator?

Regards
DL

I trust some of the greats of the church. I love love to read Origen of Alexandria he is very easy to Hinduize.

 

[Greatest I am]

Constantine had a Bible?

His money paid for it. It is his.

Regards
DL

 

[Mr Cheese]

I trust some of the greats of the church. I love love to read Origen of Alexandria he is very easy to Hinduize.

yet in the end he "lost it"

he chopped off his own testicles....

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

yet in the end he "lost it"

he chopped off his own testicles....

He did not lose it. It was a great sacrifice on the alter of woman's rights. He's teaching of women began to scandalize his school in the city of Alexandria. He became a eunuch so he could teach women philosophy and not bring scandal to the christian church.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Greatest I am, if I may, you seem to really like the garden of Eden. May I ask what your particular fascination is with this aspect of the bible?
This might make an interesting thread, but if I think about it the garden contained all the elements right? Good, God, Eve, Adam, Evil, Devil, Knowledge, Death, Life.

Anyway, just curious about your interests! Thanks.

 

[Mr Cheese]

He did not lose it. It was a great sacrifice on the alter of woman's rights. He's teaching of women began to scandalize his school in the city of Alexandria. He became a eunuch so he could teach women philosophy and not bring scandal to the christian church.

You think cutting off your testicles is a holy act?

If he was truly holy, he could manage his own thoughts and deeds, and would not need to remove his genitals to be around women....

Just a thought:sarcastic

 

[Greatest I am]

Greatest I am, if I may, you seem to really like the garden of Eden. May I ask what your particular fascination is with this aspect of the bible?
This might make an interesting thread, but if I think about it the garden contained all the elements right? Good, God, Eve, Adam, Evil, Devil, Knowledge, Death, Life.

Anyway, just curious about your interests! Thanks.

The Christian way of seeing God is to see Him screwing up heaven with evil.
Strike one.
They then see God screwing up man's beginning in Eden.
Strike two.
They then see God cleaning house in Noah's day with Genocide and starting over.
Strike three.
They now wait for His return at end time to clean house yet again.
Strike four.
Strike four?
God plays by His own rules I guess.
You and I both know that this view must be false.
God gets things right the first time and every time.
This is why He has not and will not return. His perfect systems are here today the same way that they were here in the beginning. It is just to us to see it. I do. Even with sin and evil and woes, all is perfect and humming along exactly as God wants it to. I call it perfection in evolution.

If readers cannot get out of Genesis with a winning God then they will not know how to interpret the rest of the Bible.

A God who's will is thwarted from the get go is not a God worth following. The will of the true God is never thwarted.

Regards
DL