Was Islam spread by the sword?

[paarsurrey]

So why are muslim-majority societies nothing like you describe?

Quran was never meant to be a textbook or a Manual of Politics. It is sent for ethical, moral and spiritual guidance of human beings and that is what it claims.

As the society moves from a tribal set-up to monarchy, democratic monarchy to democracy; these flexible set-ups must evolve/change.

Religion is for ethical, moral and spiritual guidance; while being firm on one's religion; one must be a lawful citizen of the state one lives in abiding with the law of land; there is no contradiction about it.

Rather both support one another in a peaceful way.

Regards

 

[1robin]

It is normal to pay taxes, it is happening nowadays, if i work in US, i have to pay taxes but in Islamic state non-muslims pay Jizya and muslims pay zakat.

I can't see how the Palestinian conflict is related to this issue.

Come off it we both know exactly what I am talking about. When Islam takes over a country while fighting it's constant and "purely defensive wars" (how that occurs I will never know). How did Islam defensively take over the Mediterranean world exactly? Anyway when this miraculous event happens Islam is to make three choices available. Convert on demand, pay a HIGHER TAX AND CONSIDER THEMSELVES SUBDUED, or apparently die. In the US Muslims do not pay higher tax and Islamic events are probably free of any taxes. You are purposefully distorting what we both know Islam is instructed to do. This is more damaging to credibility that what the Quran says to begin with.

 

[1robin]

Quran was never meant to be a textbook or a Manual of Politics. It is sent for ethical, moral and spiritual guidance of human beings and that is what it claims.

As the society moves from a tribal set-up to monarchy, democratic monarchy to democracy; these flexible set-ups must evolve/change.

Religion is for ethical, moral and spiritual guidance; while being firm on one's religion; one must be a lawful citizen of the state one lives in abiding with the law of land; there is no contradiction about it.

Rather both support one another in a peaceful way.

Regards

Why is the Quran so easily misunderstood by so many? There are currently millions who live under Islamic political systems and believe that is all together right and proper. Probably tens of millions. Why did Allah not realize his words were so easily converted into political systems, justifications to murder millions of innocent people, and actually creating Christianity. Yes Allah played the biggest joke in human history. He created the Christian faith by making it appear Jesus was crucified and not telling anyone for 500 years. No wonder he is the greatest of schemers.

 

[1robin]

Sorry; we discuss here in Religious Education Forum / Religious Topics / Religious Debates from the religious perspective, not from the political perspective.

Regards

That is exactly what I stated. The political label was common to both groups so that was NOT the issue. The thing that separated those who shoot rockets at kids and women from those who do not is their faith. My point was that it IS a theological problem NOT a political one. I could not have been more emphatic or clear.

Regardless who is we here anyway? I have three times as many posts as you so I am at least as much of we as you, and I can tell you nothing is off limits in these forums. Maybe it should be at times but it still occurs.

 

[FearGod]

Come off it we both know exactly what I am talking about. When Islam takes over a country while fighting it's constant and "purely defensive wars" (how that occurs I will never know). How did Islam defensively take over the Mediterranean world exactly? Anyway when this miraculous event happens Islam is to make three choices available. Convert on demand, pay a HIGHER TAX AND CONSIDER THEMSELVES SUBDUED, or apparently die. In the US Muslims do not pay higher tax and Islamic events are probably free of any taxes. You are purposefully distorting what we both know Islam is instructed to do. This is more damaging to credibility that what the Quran says to begin with.

You don't know how it is defensive, exactly the same way as the US conquer Iraq and Afghanistan for defensive purposes.

Who said to you that Jizya is a HIGHER TAX, from where did you get that info.
Poor are excepted from paying Jizya, so only rich non-muslims that working under the Islamic state will pay for the tax and they aren't forced to convert to Islam, so where is the problem ?

 

[1robin]

Islam/Quran/Muhammad support equitable ruling system where are citizens are treated equally,equitably and with justice.

In present times it could be a secular society where religion and state are separate. You may like read the following in this connection:

Mirza Tahir Ahmad separation of religion and state Surinam Africa

https://www.alislam.org/books/shariah/

Regards

As loon call and I point out why has the Quran been so misunderstood by so many Islamic nations if what you say is true. They use the same Quran as you and in the tens of millions come to radically different conclusions. I not talking about just the terrorists here but the majority Islamic societies like Iran, Saudi Arabia, the Sudan, etc....... they do not do what you suggest. There are Islamic etiquette police on the streets of Iran that will drag women off kicking and screaming if their head scarf is not on as they would like it. Not some random nut jobs but the entire state does this. Not only that but Muhammad himself was not doing any of this when he chopped heads off of tied up Jews until he was exhausted, when he prayed that people he killed would come back to life so he could kill them again, when he raided caravans for the sole reasons of loot, or when he killed those who openly disagreed with him even if he had to have assassins tear a baby out of a mothers arms in order to execute her.

I would have no objection to Islam if it was what you say. It isn't, at least in practice in a large percentage of cases.

 

[1robin]

You don't know how it is defensive, exactly the same way as the US conquer Iraq and Afghanistan for defensive purposes.

What? I never said we conquered either of those places for purely defensive purposes. Part of the reason was pure revenge, part was justice, part was to prevent further attacks against others, and part was defensive. It is not a US claim nor a Christian one that US wars are purely defensive. It is an Islamic claim. However look at the differences here in these massively different situations. We do not claim pure defense yet we gave back the nations to those who had rights to them. We spent billions rebuilding them only to turn it over to them and watch Islam destroy them again. Islam does claim defensive motivations yet attacks those who never attacked them, keeps what they took and oppresses the rightful owners. We took Japan, Italy, N Africa, Afghanistan, Mexico, Iraq, etc.... and with one exception gave them all back after rebuilding them at our expense after they started the war. Things do not get much clearer in a historical sense.

Who said to you that Jizya is a HIGHER TAX, from where did you get that info. Poor are excepted from paying Jizya, so only rich non-muslims that working under the Islamic state will pay for the tax and they aren't forced to convert to Islam, so where is the problem ?

Islam said so.

Jizyah or jizya (جزْ&#1610 is the extra tax imposed on non-Muslims (Dhimmis) who live under Muslim rule according to the Qur'an and hadith:

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold forbidden that which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Qur'an 9:29

"I call you to God and to Islam. If you respond to the call, then you are Muslims: You obtain the benefits they enjoy and take up the responsibilities they bear. If you refuse, then you must pay the jizyah. If you refuse the jizyah, I will bring against you tribes of people who are more eager for death than you are for life. We will then fight you until God decides between us and you." (Al Tabari, Volume XI)

Khalid bin Al-Waheed (Muslim General, 632AD)

Summon the people to God; those who respond to your call, accept it from them, but those who refuse must pay the poll tax out of humiliation and lowliness. If they refuse this, it is the sword without leniency. Fear God with regard to what you have been entrusted. (Al Tabari, Volume XII)

Umar ibn al-Khattab during the conquest of al-Basrah (636 CE)

Additional quotes can be found at Qur'an, Hadith and Scholars:Jizyah.

Once a land is conquered by Islamic armies the ruler can impose a taxation on those non-Muslims who will not convert to Islam.

Jizyah is paid as a sign of submission and gives Dhimmis some legal protection in return. Under dhimmitude (the status that Islamic law, the Sharia, mandates for non-Muslims) Dhimmis usually are not allowed to carry arms to protect themselves, serve in the army or government, display symbols of their faith, build or repair places of worship etc. If the conquered do not wish to pay or convert, their fate may very well be slavery (under which, rape is permitted) or (as evidenced in the quotes above) death.

The amount of the Jizyah tax and the way it was collected varied from time to time and from place to place, but when imposed, the forced payment of Jizyah greatly stimulated the conversion of non-Muslims into Islam.[1] In some cases the taxation of the non-Muslims was so profitable that the Islamic rulers prohibited their subjects from converting to Islam, lest they should lose their income.
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Jizyah_(Tax)

I see only Islamic sources sited.


I do not cover up Christianity's sins like the crusades or the inquisition because it makes it worse and is not true. Why are you doing so for Islam?

 

[FearGod]

What? I never said we conquered either of those places for purely defensive purposes. Part of the reason was pure revenge, part was justice, part was to prevent further attacks against others, and part was defensive. It is not a US claim nor a Christian one that US wars are purely defensive. It is an Islamic claim. However look at the differences here in these massively different situations. We do not claim pure defense yet we gave back the nations to those who had rights to them. We spent billions rebuilding them only to turn it over to them and watch Islam destroy them again. Islam does claim defensive motivations yet attacks those who never attacked them, keeps what they took and oppresses the rightful owners. We took Japan, Italy, N Africa, Afghanistan, Mexico, Iraq, etc.... and with one exception gave them all back after rebuilding them at our expense after they started the war. Things do not get much clearer in a historical sense.

The American didn't stay because many of them died on ground, they only have one choice and which is to attack by air, staying in Vietnam or Iraq or any other places isn't an easy job,because the local people didn't accept them whereas other nations such as Iran accepted Islam and they didn't fight muslims but they became brothers.

Islam said so.

Jizyah or jizya (جزْ&#1610 is the extra tax imposed on non-Muslims (Dhimmis) who live under Muslim rule according to the Qur'an and hadith:

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold forbidden that which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Qur'an 9:29

"I call you to God and to Islam. If you respond to the call, then you are Muslims: You obtain the benefits they enjoy and take up the responsibilities they bear. If you refuse, then you must pay the jizyah. If you refuse the jizyah, I will bring against you tribes of people who are more eager for death than you are for life. We will then fight you until God decides between us and you." (Al Tabari, Volume XI)

Khalid bin Al-Waheed (Muslim General, 632AD)

Summon the people to God; those who respond to your call, accept it from them, but those who refuse must pay the poll tax out of humiliation and lowliness. If they refuse this, it is the sword without leniency. Fear God with regard to what you have been entrusted. (Al Tabari, Volume XII)

Umar ibn al-Khattab during the conquest of al-Basrah (636 CE)

Additional quotes can be found at Qur'an, Hadith and Scholars:Jizyah.

Once a land is conquered by Islamic armies the ruler can impose a taxation on those non-Muslims who will not convert to Islam.

Jizyah is paid as a sign of submission and gives Dhimmis some legal protection in return. Under dhimmitude (the status that Islamic law, the Sharia, mandates for non-Muslims) Dhimmis usually are not allowed to carry arms to protect themselves, serve in the army or government, display symbols of their faith, build or repair places of worship etc. If the conquered do not wish to pay or convert, their fate may very well be slavery (under which, rape is permitted) or (as evidenced in the quotes above) death.

The amount of the Jizyah tax and the way it was collected varied from time to time and from place to place, but when imposed, the forced payment of Jizyah greatly stimulated the conversion of non-Muslims into Islam.[1] In some cases the taxation of the non-Muslims was so profitable that the Islamic rulers prohibited their subjects from converting to Islam, lest they should lose their income.
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Jizyah_(Tax)

I see only Islamic sources sited.


I do not cover up Christianity's sins like the crusades or the inquisition because it makes it worse and is not true. Why are you doing so for Islam?

My question was very clear and specific.

How you determine that the tax is very high for non-muslims ?
Zakat is a must tax for muslims and Jizya is a must tax for non-muslims.

 

[gnostic]

EDIT: In fact, it would be better, imo, to concentrate on the diverse Islamic beliefs that developed from such an exchange---an "Indian Islamic" response to such rigorism: Sufism; Ahmadi; Ismaili. All of which are looked down upon by mainstream Muslims, and even persecuted to some extent if not outright.

Actually, paarsurrey said recently that he is an Ahmadi Muslim...don't ember which thread.

I don't think it really matter what sect any Muslim belong to, I think everyone of them would resort to propaganda, to whitewash or play down the conquests used to spread Islam, like that in India.

Sure a lot of people freely converted, because they genuinely believe. But they tends to ignore when Muslims have forcibly others to convert. Force, as in intimidation and persecution, through threat of violence or actual violence, through discrimination.

Discrimination, don't necessarily lead to violence or intimidation (though sometimes they do). Discrimination can be like Muslims have more rights or privileges than fellow but non-Muslim citizens.

For instance, it has been known that a family have been Muslims for generations, on both sides of the family. If one or two decided to leave Islam and either join another religion or become atheist, if the family are not very liberal, it is quite possible the rest of the family might disown him or her, and be ostracised. That's discrimination, pure and simple.

And it could even be worse, if that family feel the apostate had dishonour the family by leaving Islam, which could lead to potential honour killing. It is very extreme, but it has been known to happen.

Though, Islam don't support or condone killing, that doesn't stop other Muslims in community or even clerics, police and court condoning such violent acts against any apostate.

The Qur'an may say murder is a crime and sin, but there's always a loophole for any Muslim to exploit and justify their action. All any murderer has to say, is he did it for Islam or jihad or whatever other excuses, and Islamic cleric or Muslim judge or juries will often forgive the murderer.

Some Muslims have perfect the art of double-standard and hypocrisy.

Edit:
Of course, the Christians have practise this same hypocrisy, past and present.

I would guess that it is abrahamic trait for either Christians or Muslims to think their own respective religions to be special or to be the only true religion.

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

Muslim friend
Why do not respond to the second part
* And moving to the present
Do you recognize that Islam spread by the sword
As for the present
Islam spreads using dissimulation
Because most of those who believe in Islam do not know the origins of this religion
And you are of them
And also spreads using oil money Arabia, Qatar and the United Arab Emirates

And also spreads
By breeding
Any reproduction numerical
And also spreads because most people do not know the seriousness of this religion
The bombs Yes bombs found in Iraq and in Syria, Egypt
Nigeria
The teachings of Islam nationality of the causes of its spread

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

Actually, paarsurrey said recently that he is an Ahmadi Muslim...don't ember which thread.

I don't think it really matter what sect any Muslim belong to, I think everyone of them would resort to propaganda, to whitewash or play down the conquests used to spread Islam, like that in India.

Sure a lot of people freely converted, because they genuinely believe. But they tends to ignore when Muslims have forcibly others to convert. Force, as in intimidation and persecution, through threat of violence or actual violence, through discrimination.

Discrimination, don't necessarily lead to violence or intimidation (though sometimes they do). Discrimination can be like Muslims have more rights or privileges than fellow but non-Muslim citizens.

For instance, it has been known that a family have been Muslims for generations, on both sides of the family. If one or two decided to leave Islam and either join another religion or become atheist, if the family are not very liberal, it is quite possible the rest of the family might disown him or her, and be ostracised. That's discrimination, pure and simple.

And it could even be worse, if that family feel the apostate had dishonour the family by leaving Islam, which could lead to potential honour killing. It is very extreme, but it has been known to happen.

Though, Islam don't support or condone killing, that doesn't stop other Muslims in community or even clerics, police and court condoning such violent acts against any apostate.

The Qur'an may say murder is a crime and sin, but there's always a loophole for any Muslim to exploit and justify their action. All any murderer has to say, is he did it for Islam or jihad or whatever other excuses, and Islamic cleric or Muslim judge or juries will often forgive the murderer.

Some Muslims have perfect the art of double-standard and hypocrisy.

Edit:
Of course, the Christians have practise this same hypocrisy, past and present.
In Muslim countries
If she married a non-Muslim from a Muslim must Islam
If she married a non-Muslim from the Muslim and had kids
Van her children become Muslims
Rules apostate window is effectively in all Islamic societies
In all Mahtmat Islamic Aasmahohnllchristabaltbshir
While we find most countries allow Muslims to preach
Alaslamlaihterm followers of other religions on its soil
While respecting Muslims in other countries
Islam spread in the form of spots and small families claim tolerance and follow the pious
The dimensions settle primitive outpost grow and become a problem
This is the case in Europe
Allowed the migration of Muslims
They took advantage of the tolerance of the laws of the West in the religious question
Thus, Islam has spread in the body of Europe
But most Muslims Viaurba origins of Oriental
Few Europeans embrace religion
Only in one case, a flattering Mai
For men and women and also
Alzoajmn Alaorbeat
And exploiting this loophole to force deep into Western families
I would guess that it is abrahamic trait for either Christians or Muslims to think their own respective religions to be special or to be the only true religion.

In Muslim countries
If she married a non-Muslim from a Muslim must Islam
If she married a non-Muslim from the Muslim and had kids
Van her children become Muslims
Rules apostate window is effectively in all Islamic societies
In all Mahtmat Islamic Aasmahohnllchristabaltbshir
While we find most countries allow Muslims to preach
Alaslamlaihterm followers of other religions on its soil
While respecting Muslims in other countries
Islam spread in the form of spots and small families claim tolerance and follow the pious
The dimensions settle primitive outpost grow and become a problem
This is the case in Europe
Allowed the migration of Muslims
They took advantage of the tolerance of the laws of the West in the religious question
Thus, Islam has spread in the body of Europe
But most Muslims Viaurba origins of Oriental
Few Europeans embrace religion
Only in one case, a flattering Mai
For men and women and also
Alzoajmn Alaorbeat
And exploiting this loophole to force deep into Western families

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

Do you recognize the Ahmadiyya Muslim sect
I think n Muslims in Saudi Arabia for their Ayatervon
Second
Tribute is collective punishment
It is not a tax
Is located in the state of the Koran

Is coercion
This is converted to the poor people in countries ruled by Islam, this religion even get rid of the poll tax

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

Give you a rule of law mission
Everything is built on falsehood is false
Every religion spread by the sword is void
And offer you the following example
There was a man owns a hundred dinars
Bought a shop
But this shop did not grow
This guy
Sold the shop
And rented thieves and murderers and stole people's money that made the owner of wealth
This man died
And his heirs
The world's forgotten his actions
Because the heirs were buying receivables people
And also even bigger money
Do you think that money came this man by using dishonest means
The same way we change names
Mecca was Mamedfa
People did not believe in it
Moved to Medina
Use the Tramps
The killers for the construction of the city and spread Islam
Vhoaleom forgotten Almafal these killers
And grandsons Mhamdidon peace
But they actually do not know that some people forget them and I So is void
According to the legal base and the example above.
with my regard

 

[1robin]

The American didn't stay because many of them died on ground, they only have one choice and which is to attack by air, staying in Vietnam or Iraq or any other places isn't an easy job,because the local people didn't accept them whereas other nations such as Iran accepted Islam and they didn't fight muslims but they became brothers.

What planet do you live on? I was in the military for 2 out of the three wars. We defeated the 4th largest military in the world in about 2 weeks with losing less men than died by accident in the transit to get there. We defeated what was left of that army several years later in less than a month losing less people for the whole war than we used to lose per day in previous wars. These are among the most lopsided victories in the history of the world. This country knows what real war is and has paid in lakes of blood to win time after time. What occurred in all three wars added together in the middle east was nothing to us compared with other wars. If you added up all the numbers killed in two Iraq wars and the Afghanistan war combined then multiplied it by ten it would still be less men that we lost in one day in the civil war. We left because we do not want your land, we are not colonialists. never have been. We want to go in take care of business and get out the backwards insanity present in other nations and back to our own more civil nation. We would have left in 6 months if the Arab lunatics did not keep filtering into wars requiring us to kill them in the tens of thousands. The loss ratio was for every loss we took the Arabs lost hundreds and maybe thousands. So no, our losses were so infinitesimally small that they had nothing what so ever to do with our leaving. We had the oil, we had the land, and the entire middle east put together could not have taken a single place back if we wanted to hold it. Yet we (unlike) Islam finish the fights others start, always win, then rebuild and give back the nations to the people. Which in the middle east's case means they go right back to ruining them. You live in some bizarre universe of your own making which has nothing to do with reality. I know why we left, I was there.

My question was very clear and specific.

How you determine that the tax is very high for non-muslims ?
Zakat is a must tax for muslims and Jizya is a must tax for non-muslims.

I know what the words mean and that has nothing to do with anything. Why is the Christian the only one posting details about Islamic law? I have proven one is higher (many times much higher) than the other. That is all that is necessary. I have no burden what so ever to figure out by what arbitrary means Islam goes about oppressing the world. You cannot codify moral insanity. The fact remains they do make others pay higher taxes and deny them all kinds of rights for simply not being Islamic. They have been doing so for 1400 years for pity sake. I have no idea what rules they follow. It does not seem they follow any rules consistently. Islamic warlords have invented all kinds of differing but oppressive tax rates on non-Muslims. They do not seem to be based on anything except lining their own pockets and subjugating others. As usual no consistency (except for almost always being horrible), no rule of law, no universal codes, just greed in various forms.

 

[Ryujin]

What planet do you live on? I was in the military for 2 out of the three wars. We defeated the 4th largest military in the world in about 2 weeks with losing less men than died by accident in the transit to get there. We defeated what was left of that army several years later in less than a month losing less people for the whole war than we used to lose per day in previous wars. These are among the most lopsided victories in the history of the world. This country knows what real war is and has paid in lakes of blood to win time after time. What occurred in all three wars added together in the middle east was nothing to us compared with other wars. If you added up all the numbers killed in two Iraq wars and the Afghanistan war combined then multiplied it by ten it would still be less men that we lost in one day in the civil war. We left because we do not want your land, we are not colonialists. never have been. We want to go in take care of business and get out the backwards insanity present in other nations and back to our own more civil nation. We would have left in 6 months if the Arab lunatics did not keep filtering into wars requiring us to kill them in the tens of thousands. The loss ratio was for every loss we took the Arabs lost hundreds and maybe thousands. So no, our losses were so infinitesimally small that they had nothing what so ever to do with our leaving. We had the oil, we had the land, and the entire middle east put together could not have taken a single place back if we wanted to hold it. Yet we (unlike) Islam finish the fights others start, always win, then rebuild and give back the nations to the people. Which in the middle east's case means they go right back to ruining them. You live in some bizarre universe of your own making which has nothing to do with reality. I know why we left, I was there.



I know what the words mean and that has nothing to do with anything. Why is the Christian the only one posting details about Islamic law? I have proven one is higher (many times much higher) than the other. That is all that is necessary. I have no burden what so ever to figure out by what arbitrary means Islam goes about oppressing the world. You cannot codify moral insanity. The fact remains they do make others pay higher taxes and deny them all kinds of rights for simply not being Islamic. They have been doing so for 1400 years for pity sake. I have no idea what rules they follow. It does not seem they follow any rules consistently. Islamic warlords have invented all kinds of differing but oppressive tax rates on non-Muslims. They do not seem to be based on anything except lining their own pockets and subjugating others. As usual no consistency (except for almost always being horrible), no rule of law, no universal codes, just greed in various forms.

Just one question. You are proud that we are not colonialists, no? That we don't settle the middle east with Caucasian English speaking Christians( Which the vast majority of Americans are), that's good right? Then how do you square that with support of Israel colonizing land that it admits is not theirs(The West Bank)? They settle the West bank with Hebrew speaking Israelis who follow Judaism( which the vast majority of Israel's population is). Since you are proud that we do not colonize the middle east, do you not also think it would be better for Israel to cease colonizing it in The West Bank?

 

[FearGod]

What planet do you live on? I was in the military for 2 out of the three wars. We defeated the 4th largest military in the world in about 2 weeks with losing less men than died by accident in the transit to get there. We defeated what was left of that army several years later in less than a month losing less people for the whole war than we used to lose per day in previous wars. These are among the most lopsided victories in the history of the world. This country knows what real war is and has paid in lakes of blood to win time after time. What occurred in all three wars added together in the middle east was nothing to us compared with other wars. If you added up all the numbers killed in two Iraq wars and the Afghanistan war combined then multiplied it by ten it would still be less men that we lost in one day in the civil war. We left because we do not want your land, we are not colonialists. never have been. We want to go in take care of business and get out the backwards insanity present in other nations and back to our own more civil nation. We would have left in 6 months if the Arab lunatics did not keep filtering into wars requiring us to kill them in the tens of thousands. The loss ratio was for every loss we took the Arabs lost hundreds and maybe thousands. So no, our losses were so infinitesimally small that they had nothing what so ever to do with our leaving. We had the oil, we had the land, and the entire middle east put together could not have taken a single place back if we wanted to hold it. Yet we (unlike) Islam finish the fights others start, always win, then rebuild and give back the nations to the people. Which in the middle east's case means they go right back to ruining them. You live in some bizarre universe of your own making which has nothing to do with reality. I know why we left, I was there.

You were a soldier, so you know nothing but just to obey orders of your boss, Politicians won't tell a soldier what the war was for and how many soldiers died and for what reason they died except if you are one leader wasting his time in this forum.

I know what the words mean and that has nothing to do with anything. Why is the Christian the only one posting details about Islamic law? I have proven one is higher (many times much higher) than the other. That is all that is necessary. I have no burden what so ever to figure out by what arbitrary means Islam goes about oppressing the world. You cannot codify moral insanity. The fact remains they do make others pay higher taxes and deny them all kinds of rights for simply not being Islamic. They have been doing so for 1400 years for pity sake. I have no idea what rules they follow. It does not seem they follow any rules consistently. Islamic warlords have invented all kinds of differing but oppressive tax rates on non-Muslims. They do not seem to be based on anything except lining their own pockets and subjugating others. As usual no consistency (except for almost always being horrible), no rule of law, no universal codes, just greed in various forms.

The Andalusia proves your dishonesty.

Spain was the best place in Europe and it was the golden age for the jews in Spain during the Islamic rule, so that confirms that you only make a silly propaganda about Islam but the historical evidence in Europe itself shows that you aren't telling the truth and any sane person can realize that your intention is to distort Islam and that you aren't speaking the truth

 

[Shad]

The American didn't stay because many of them died on ground, they only have one choice and which is to attack by air, staying in Vietnam or Iraq or any other places isn't an easy job,because the local people didn't accept them whereas other nations such as Iran accepted Islam and they didn't fight muslims but they became brothers.



My question was very clear and specific.

How you determine that the tax is very high for non-muslims ?
Zakat is a must tax for muslims and Jizya is a must tax for non-muslims.

You are comparing a nation to a religion which is a fallacy. Also you are ignoring the revolts and rebellions under Muslim Empires, including the one which started right after Muhammad's death. So while some people accepted Islam or co-existed with Muslims many rejected the government system created by Islam which ruled over them. Even Muslims rejected the leaders which the system installed into power at various points. So even "brothers" had no issue with killing each other when an Islamic system or leader did not produce a result groups or individuals expected.

Jizya is a head tax which is a lump sum tax based on an amount agreed upon by Muslim rulers and non-Muslim subjects of state. A head tax is very restrictive compared to a percentage of wealth/income based Zakat. A head tax itself is usually higher than an income based system. Hypothetically if Jizya was 1 gold dinar this rate could cover a large or very small percentage of one's wealth. If one's yearly income was 10 dinars this would be 10% of their income. If one's income was 1000 dinars a year this tax would be .1%. So regardless of the rate in question the tax system is flawed as it can be abused by the rich or oppress the poor.

One needs to consider what is deemed poor enough to be exempt from Jiyza. Is poor based on net income, material wealth (goods) or based on what percentage Jizya is in comparison to an income. IS a 25% tax rate too high? Is 50%?

Jizya is a topic which only can only be referenced by the recorded effect it had on people. At times it was very high in India due to the religious agenda of Mughal Sultans. At times it was very low. It also varied from region to region. There are few tax records from Muslim nations to give us an accurate rate by time, place and people. Neither side can argue Jizya was low/high as evidence is isolated to individual groups or by region, not by unified system. Both sides can only propose weak or isolated arguments. This is an issue with inductive reasoning.

 

[1robin]

Just one question. You are proud that we are not colonialists, no? That we don't settle the middle east with Caucasian English speaking Christians( Which the vast majority of Americans are), that's good right? Then how do you square that with support of Israel colonizing land that it admits is not theirs(The West Bank)? They settle the West bank with Hebrew speaking Israelis who follow Judaism( which the vast majority of Israel's population is). Since you are proud that we do not colonize the middle east, do you not also think it would be better for Israel to cease colonizing it in The West Bank?

1. That is like asking me if I am proud that we don't rob banks. I am not exactly proud but we are one of the few exceptions to this in most cases.

2. I don't think too many Americans want to settle in the backwards middle east, so it's no wonder we are not doing so. It is a wonder that we spend billions fighting to free others and take over oil wells in the process. We repair them and give them to the local people. I would have repaid our expenditures with oil profits and then given them back. Yet we go way beyond that rebuilding stuff and even construct new and better stuff at our expense. yet the more insane parts of the world attack us because they resent it.

3. We need to be detailed about Israel. Israel has every right known to man to the land they were given in 1948. They would have lived peacefully in the 50% of their former lands if not attacked. They were fine with the Palestinians who had simply moved into their land once they were forcefully removed in many cases, retaining the other 50% of their land. The Palestinians were the ones that wanted all of what they had no right to. It was all five surrounding Arab nations that attacked Israel within 24 hours of their being a nation. They launched their attacks from those specific pieces of land that are in question. yet Israel did not keep those parts of their original lands they had taken by force after they were attacked without cause. They gave them back. A few years went by and those same areas were used to launch new attacks, to snipe at women and children, to hide weapons in. The next invasions that came from those places Israel won again and took them again. They started to see patterns here and for simple survival they decided to make them buffer zones by contesting them. Over time they were forced to give some of them back by political pressure. Every single time they did those areas were used to attack them again. If you compare graphs that link land given back by Israel after taking them when attacked from them with the level of violence against them it is perfectly consistent. So no, Israel doe snot want to colonize these areas, they contest them for sheer survival against an enemy who has no honor, no rules, no cause, and no justice. Only blind hatred. We did not initially help them, Russia did. The West actually helped their enemies. Only in more recent times have we backed them because they are surrounded by people who deny their right to exist and use those areas to kill as many civilians as possible unless prevented by Israel. So you need to include a little more history here.


That was not one question but several.

 

[1robin]

You were a soldier, so you know nothing but just to obey orders of your boss, Politicians won't tell a soldier what the war was for and how many soldiers died and for what reason they died except if you are one leader wasting his time in this forum.

You are really something else. I was a US soldier so I know infinitely more than you about being one. In the modern information age (at least outside of Islam where the media is controlled) we in the west know exactly what is going on. It is no longer an army of grunts (actually in the US it never was) blindly following orders. We are required to know why we are doing what we do, we are also required to disobey immoral orders by law, and we are well informed and candidly informed about what is motivating what we are doing. You just making up whatever it is you need to cover up inconvenient facts. You have obviously not studied military history. Even on my aircraft carrier in a war zone I was provided an uncensored internet where we had access to everything you do plus our own intelligence which you do not have access to. WE are our own worst critics and constantly evaluate our actions. It is the US not Islam that cannot fire on even people who were firing at us if they throw their weapon away, it is the US that spends billions on weapons designed to reduce collateral damage not Islam, it is the US that loses soldiers because of a code of honor that Islam does not obey, It is the US who require many levels of permission before we can fire so as to minimize civilian casualties and Islam who targets civilians purposefully. Let me ask you something if you have to deny reality to believe, is what you believe, worth believing?

Your are not only wrong about our soldiers being uninformed, you your self are either uninformed in the extreme or informed and covering up what you don't like. You are actually doing what you wrongfully think we were.

The Andalusia proves your dishonesty.

Spain was the best place in Europe and it was the golden age for the jews in Spain during the Islamic rule, so that confirms that you only make a silly propaganda about Islam but the historical evidence in Europe itself shows that you aren't telling the truth and any sane person can realize that your intention is to distort Islam and that you aren't speaking the truth

My God is that all you have. Do al roads in Islam end in it's one success. Does one period where it was not quite as backwards and oppressive as it was in all the other the years make up for that? If you imagine that technological advancement, scientific advancement, mathematic advancement, and societal advancement is measured by the intensity of light. You find Islam's golden age to be a candle in a time where darkness prevailed to some degree. Against darkness a candle looks bright. However when Christianity got out of it's own way and turned on it's high beam halogen spot lights it completely excised Islam's candle and stayed that way ever since. Now if you want to brag about your briefly flickering candle compared to our far longer lasting flood light go ahead, apparently it is all you have. But it does not make a single other thing you have said here true. You are covering up what Islam says Islam has done, your inventing garbage about what a US soldier knows when you have no idea about it, and have attempted to divert the conversation from every Islamic sin I bring up because you have no defense. This conversation is pointless.


BTW by the time war occurred I was the one who gave orders not the grunt who was always taking them but in the US army there is no such thing as blind obedience. We are required to be exhaustively educated about what we are doing and to even question it. Even in WW2 we were the ones who were fighting against the people with the gas chambers and the ones who freed the prison camps, and who exposed the to the world for the first time. Islam fought on the side which hid the camps and gassed the Jews by the millions. You cannot not even begin to make military moral comparisons between the two and you obviously know little about the US military. So please cut the cover ups, diversions, and stuff you don't know about and juts be honest or I can't justify this much longer.

 

[Ryujin]

1. That is like asking me if I am proud that we don't rob banks. I am not exactly proud but we are one of the few exceptions to this in most cases.

2. I don't think too many Americans want to settle in the backwards middle east, so it's no wonder we are not doing so. It is a wonder that we spend billions fighting to free others and take over oil wells in the process. We repair them and give them to the local people. I would have repaid our expenditures with oil profits and then given them back. Yet we go way beyond that rebuilding stuff and even construct new and better stuff at our expense. yet the more insane parts of the world attack us because they resent it.

3. We need to be detailed about Israel. Israel has every right known to man to the land they were given in 1948. They would have lived peacefully in the 50% of their former lands if not attacked. They were fine with the Palestinians who had simply moved into their land once they were forcefully removed in many cases, retaining the other 50% of their land. The Palestinians were the ones that wanted all of what they had no right to. It was all five surrounding Arab nations that attacked Israel within 24 hours of their being a nation. They launched their attacks from those specific pieces of land that are in question. yet Israel did not keep those parts of their original lands they had taken by force after they were attacked without cause. They gave them back. A few years went by and those same areas were used to launch new attacks, to snipe at women and children, to hide weapons in. The next invasions that came from those places Israel won again and took them again. They started to see patterns here and for simple survival they decided to make them buffer zones by contesting them. Over time they were forced to give some of them back by political pressure. Every single time they did those areas were used to attack them again. If you compare graphs that link land given back by Israel after taking them when attacked from them with the level of violence against them it is perfectly consistent. So no, Israel doe snot want to colonize these areas, they contest them for sheer survival against an enemy who has no honor, no rules, no cause, and no justice. Only blind hatred. We did not initially help them, Russia did. The West actually helped their enemies. Only in more recent times have we backed them because they are surrounded by people who deny their right to exist and use those areas to kill as many civilians as possible unless prevented by Israel. So you need to include a little more history here.


That was not one question but several.

Ah, that was more than one question. Sorry about that.

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts on the matter.