Was Islam spread by the sword?

[Smart_Guy]

I see. That must be why there is no divergence of opinions on the matter. It's so simple, really. Sadly, your assertion that Islam allows people to " live under Muslim rule peacefully and without preventing them from practicing their beliefs, allowing people to choose the religion they want freely, respecting other beliefs... " is not really true. The status of the dhimmi is not exactly a bowl of cherries.

Forgive me for my slow understanding and reading skills, but I don't see how it is not true in that link!

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

Practiced in Western countries recognized the most flattering types of physical blocks west of their earnings to Islam in different ways ---
Does the law prohibits these types of western marriage contracts ---
Muslims in the West enjoy Bmsawh bigger than his own -
In spite of this - it says the country infidels ----

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

Apostasy in Islam -
And banditry are also impediments to religious freedom ---
No freedom of expression in any Islamic country ---
Who convert to Islam, but these natives of the country's population ---
They have been subjected to persecution in the Muslim previous eras -
And to this day, leaving them only a few remnants ---
And another Grapes of Islamic terrorism - is what is happening in Syria now - under the auspices of Saudi Arabia and Qatar
Supporting Islamic groups atonement -

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

في دول الغرب يمارس المسلم اشد انواع الاغراء المادي لبنات الغرب من كسبهم الى الاسلام بطرق مختلفة --- فهل يمنع القانون الغربي هذه الانواع من عقود الزواج --- المسلم في الغرب يتمتع بمساوة اكبر من بلده -- وبالرغم من ذلك --يقول انها بلاد الكفار ----







Iraq's Christians cut Raeads
And wrote on Securities
Song says get out from the lands of the Muslims ---
Churches burned ----
Yes, many people fled in fear of this terrorism ---
Did not stand little - and those on tipping ----In the case of Egypt Copts in Lebanon also ---
Egyptian Christians have been killed in Libya - poor workers are looking for a living
Slaughtered the Islamic way - God is greater, larger knife poor slave skins ---

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

Swords will remain Islamic ---
Because Muhammad told his followers -
I have an order from God to fight the people until they say no God but Allah, Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, the they said Asmoa their blood to me ---
Stpfy Islam swords drawn map of the blood of humanity -
With Koranic verses that call for a fight -

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

The history of Islam was wars and blood ---
Battles of Badr and the battles of apostasy and to the Battle of the Camel and the incident of Karbala, to the killing of Christians in Iraq, Egypt and the Levant and to the blood of today's date -
Caused by the verses of the Koran and the teachings of the Koran

 

[YmirGF]

Forgive me for my slow understanding and reading skills, but I don't see how it is not true in that link!

I do understand, Smart_Guy. I've run into this many times with other Muslim posters. I don't think I've ever heard a Muslim say there is anything undesirable about the dhimmi status accorded to non-Muslims. The simple fact is that they are second class citizens similar to that in South African Apartheid. Life can be tolerable as long as one follows the rules and does not offend Muslim sensibilities. I freely admit that. The thing is that part of the dhimmi status was to ensure that the dhimmi would be free from forced conversion to Islam. The unfortunate reality is that dhimmit status varied from one age to another depending who ruled the roost. Sometimes dhimmis, living under Muslim so-called "protection" did not fare well at all and were brutally "brought low" to make them appreciate how far they were below their Muslim overlords.

And for the record, I provided the link from Wiki because it painted dhimmi status in a somewhat favorable light. Professor Bernard Lewis paints a far clearer picture in his numerous works of what it was like, the good and the bad, living under Muslim rule. He is one of the leading non-Muslim scholars on the planet and has been for decades...

 

[Smart_Guy]

I do understand, Smart_Guy. I've run into this many times with other Muslim posters. I don't think I've ever heard a Muslim say there is anything undesirable about the dhimmi status accorded to non-Muslims. The simple fact is that they are second class citizens similar to that in South African Apartheid. Life can be tolerable as long as one follows the rules and does not offend Muslim sensibilities. I freely admit that. The thing is that part of the dhimmi status was to ensure that the dhimmi would be free from forced conversion to Islam. The unfortunate reality is that dhimmit status varied from one age to another depending who ruled the roost. Sometimes dhimmis, living under Muslim so-called "protection" did not fare well at all and were brutally "brought low" to make them appreciate how far they were below their Muslim overlords.

And for the record, I provided the link from Wiki because it painted dhimmi status in a somewhat favorable light. Professor Bernard Lewis paints a far clearer picture in his numerous works of what it was like, the good and the bad, living under Muslim rule. He is one of the leading non-Muslim scholars on the planet and has been for decades...

I agree with everything you said, except that they are a second class, and I admit that there are indeed things undesirable. We're talking about laws after all and a law can never be taken 100% convenient by people. Even among Muslims there are of us who find inconveniences. Discussions should not have stubbornness, but open minds, so I say the right thing, not what I like to be right!

There are rules that are put for them and other completely dropped. It is a give and take. Making complicated equations to prove that in the end Muslims get the bigger part of the cake is in my opinion not a good proof because it is only natural for a company to give its founders and their offspring less restrictions than guests, at least to protect their investment. Humans by nature don't mind to rebel against those in charge just to get what they want no matter good or evil their motives are. Islam protects its investment against that, and in a just way when practiced as should be!

Please also note that Professor Bernard Lewis is in the end just a human like us which means he's not always right. It is only the readers/listeners are the ones that take what they believe right or wrong!

The unfortunate reality is that dhimmit status varied from one age to another depending who ruled the roost. Sometimes dhimmis, living under Muslim so-called "protection" did not fare well at all and were brutally "brought low" to make them appreciate how far they were below their Muslim overlords.

I support Islam the way it should be practiced (what I meant by true Islam) and the above returns back to what people personally did in the name of Islam and not what I called "true Islam". You also mentioned that it varied from an age to another. Why not take the best age of Islam (as per the subject of our discussion) at least before we judge based on the worst of them? You also said "sometimes" which proves that in some other times things where good, which we could judge by those times instead!

Those who unjustly bring non Muslims low never represent Islam. Saudi Arabia does not, Iran does not, Iraq... etc.

I would never stand side by side with a Muslim that abuses Islam against non Muslims. I have non Muslim friends and I treat them the way I treat Muslims, with complete respect. I even care for you and appreciate your decent way in stating you mind, and can't accept having you harmed even by Muslims!

But anyways, you have your understanding/opinions and I have mine, and I completely respect that and don't mind having your opinion on Islam even if it is negative (but please no bashing, if any). The only thing I would do is discuss it with you with decency and respect. You could be right in the end, who knows!

 

[England my lionheart]

Such hadith is irrational, as if this hadith was true then it means that the prophet should killed all the Atheists, Jews and Christians who didn't accept his message, so the hadith contradicts reality and hence it is unbelievable,to me at least.

The message of the prophet to the Christians was kept till our recent days,it says

“This is a message from Muhammad ibn Abdullah, as a covenant to those who adopt Christianity, near and far, we are with them.
Verily I, the servants, the helpers, and my followers defend them, because Christians are my citizens; and by Allah! I hold out against anything that displeases them.
No compulsion is to be on them. Neither are their judges to be removed from their jobs nor their monks from their monasteries. No one is to destroy a house of their religion, to damage it, or to carry anything from it to the Muslims’ houses.
Should anyone take any of these, he would spoil God’s covenant and disobey His Prophet. Verily, they are my allies and have my secure charter against all that they hate.
No one is to force them to travel or to oblige them to fight. The Muslims are to fight for them. If a female Christian is married to a Muslim, it is not to take place without her approval. She is not to be prevented from visiting her church to pray. Their churches are to be respected. They are neither to be prevented from repairing them nor the sacredness of their covenants.
No one of the nation (Muslims) is to disobey the covenant till the Last Day (end of the world).”

Reference: Muhammad's promise to Christians | OnFaith

I didn't make it up,its a sahih hadith,we could swap different hadith for a month and still have some ammunition left,whether you or I believe it or not there are so many who do.

Earlier you mentioned Andalus as your Islamic Ideal,i would suggest you read about the execution of the Christian martyrs,they wanted martyrdom and Islam provided it,sounds oddly familiar.

 

[England my lionheart]

Example of what ?

Is it not self explanatory.

 

[England my lionheart]

Quote:
Originally Posted by England my lionheart View Post
Maybe you can give an example of "true Islam"

Quote:
Originally Posted by YmirGF View Post
The great $64,000 question. It would appear the Muslims are no wiser on this topic than non-Muslims.

Hmm...

Allowing non Muslims to live under Muslim rule peacefully and without preventing them from practicing their beliefs, allowing people to choose the religion they want freely, respecting other beliefs... and the list goes on!

It is not really that complicated (or expensive) to ask about!

Windwalker had good points in his post quoted above!

And, good Muslims are always wise on this topic

Ok smart_guy the stage is yours,show us your example of "true Islam"

 

[Flankerl]

Earlier you mentioned Andalus as your Islamic Ideal,i would suggest you read about the execution of the Christian martyrs,they wanted martyrdom and Islam provided it,sounds oddly familiar.

Or the expulsion of all Jews within al Andalus under the Almohads if they wouldnt convert to Islam or die by the sword. It was so bad that we even fled into the Christian Kingdoms. Thats really a huge accomplishment in itself.

This usually is forgotten because Spain and Portugal went ******* crazy in the late 15th century after the Reconquista.

 

[Sabour]

Is it not self explanatory.

I wouldn't have asked in the first place.

Seriously, example of what?

The Zakat is a pillar in Islam and it is a right for the poor people


The Hadith is about a muslim group that said we won't give Zakat anymore after the death of Muhammad peace be upon him.

 

[England my lionheart]

Or the expulsion of all Jews within al Andalus under the Almohads if they wouldnt convert to Islam or die by the sword. It was so bad that we even fled into the Christian Kingdoms. Thats really a huge accomplishment in itself.

This usually is forgotten because Spain and Portugal went ******* crazy in the late 15th century after the Reconquista.

Yes it was as bad as it could get yet nobody ever saw a sword

 

[England my lionheart]

I wouldn't have asked in the first place.

Seriously, example of what?

The Zakat is a pillar in Islam and it is a right for the poor people


The Hadith is about a muslim group that said we won't give Zakat anymore after the death of Muhammad peace be upon him.

One mans zakat is another mans extortion,unbelievers pay zakat,if they don't pay they die.

 

[Sabour]

One mans zakat is another mans extortion,unbelievers pay zakat,if they don't pay they die.

Unbelievers don't pay Zakat. And as I said, the Zakat is the other people's right.

Muslims used to to pay Zakat which is more than the taxes ( which unbelievers pay). And Muslims were the ones responsible to defend the territory. And once I heard from a scholar that they had the opportunity not to pay taxes if they want in condition that they join muslims in sharing the responsibility to defend the territory (I can't assure you that as I didn't look for his proof about that).

The hadith has nothing to say about non believers.

 

[FearGod]

I didn't make it up,its a sahih hadith,we could swap different hadith for a month and still have some ammunition left,whether you or I believe it or not there are so many who do.

Earlier you mentioned Andalus as your Islamic Ideal,i would suggest you read about the execution of the Christian martyrs,they wanted martyrdom and Islam provided it,sounds oddly familiar.

Here is the covenant of Omar(companion of the prophet) to the Christians in Jerusalem.

The Covenant of Omar
Source - http://www.mamuniya.net/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=2
In the Name of Allah, the Most Merciful, the Most Compassionate
This is an assurance of peace and protection given by the servant of Allah Omar, Commander of the Believers to the people of Ilia' (Jerusalem). He gave them an assurance of protection for their lives, property, church and crosses as well as the sick and healthy and all its religious community.
Their churches shall not be occupied, demolished nor taken away wholly or in part. None of their crosses nor property shall be seized. They shall not be coerced in their religion nor shall any of them be injured. None of the Jews shall reside with them in Ilia'.
The people of Ilia shall pay Jizia tax (head tax on free non-Muslims living under Muslim rule) as inhabitants of cities do. They shall evict all Romans and thieves.
He whoever gets out shall be guaranteed safety for his life and property until he reach his safe haven. He whoever stays shall be (also) safe, in which case he shall pay as much tax as the people of Ilia' do. Should any of the people of Ilia wish to move together with his property along with the Romans and to clear out of their churches and crosses, they shall be safe for their lives, churches and crosses, until they have reached then safe haven. He whoever chooses to stay he may do so and he shall pay as much tax as the people of Ilia' do. He whoever wishes to move along with the Roman, may do so, and whoever wishes to return back home to his kinsfolk, may do so. Nothing shall be taken from them, their crops have been harvested. To the contents of this convent here are given the Covenant of Allah, the guarantees of His Messenger, the Caliphs and the Believers, provided they (the people of Ilia') pay their due Jizia tax.
Witnesses hereto are:
Khalid Ibn al-Waleed Amr Ibn al-*** Abdul-Rahman Ibn'Auf Mu'awiya Ibn abi-Sifian Made and executed in the year 15 AH

Reference : The Covenant of Omar

 

[FearGod]

One mans zakat is another mans extortion,unbelievers pay zakat,if they don't pay they die.

There is no law as to kill a person for not paying the tax.

How it is extortion ?, don't you pay tax for your government ?

All citizens regardless of their religion have to pay for the tax,whether in form of Zakat or Jizia

 

[Sabour]

في دول الغرب يمارس المسلم اشد انواع الاغراء المادي لبنات الغرب من كسبهم الى الاسلام بطرق مختلفة --- فهل يمنع القانون الغربي هذه الانواع من عقود الزواج --- المسلم في الغرب يتمتع بمساوة اكبر من بلده -- وبالرغم من ذلك --يقول انها بلاد الكفار ----







Iraq's Christians cut Raeads
And wrote on Securities
Song says get out from the lands of the Muslims ---
Churches burned ----
Yes, many people fled in fear of this terrorism ---
Did not stand little - and those on tipping ----In the case of Egypt Copts in Lebanon also ---
Egyptian Christians have been killed in Libya - poor workers are looking for a living
Slaughtered the Islamic way - God is greater, larger knife poor slave skins ---

So, copying and pasting an Arabic sentence, wow you must know Arabic. If you want credibility this is not the proper way, I advise for example you would write one reply instead of 9 after each other. Addressing things in a reasonable manner would help too. That is of course if you wish to be taken seriously.

 

[England my lionheart]

Unbelievers don't pay Zakat. And as I said, the Zakat is the other people's right.

Muslims used to to pay Zakat which is more than the taxes ( which unbelievers pay). And Muslims were the ones responsible to defend the territory. And once I heard from a scholar that they had the opportunity not to pay taxes if they want in condition that they join muslims in sharing the responsibility to defend the territory (I can't assure you that as I didn't look for his proof about that).

The hadith has nothing to say about non believers.

My apologies,jizyah is paid by unbelievers,i'm obviously not a scholar.