Limo
Active Member
Is it a good or bad to write like Sovietchild and Paarsury ?
Islam is the religion that the Creator has chosen to people since Adam
Islam means submission and peace.
It's neither new nor founded in the 7th century.
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Was Jesus a Christian ?
- Thread starter Limo
- Start date
Islam is the religion that the Creator has chosen to people since Adam
Islam means submission and peace.
It's neither new nor founded in the 7th century.
Servant_of_the_One1
Well-Known Member
Jesus peace be upon him was muslim and a servant of Allah.
Limo
Active Member
Most of your answers are built on some bases that Jesus didn't authenticate even didn't see.
It's based on belief but not on history and words of Jesus as per the Gospels.
I think the most neutral answer was in #17 by @rusra02 I'm not sure if he's Christian or not
I'll respond in another comment for all
Regards
Limo
Active Member
It's not about like or dislike.
The analysis of the word itself from Hebrew language has a few possibilities:
- one of Jacob's twelve sons Judah
- Memeber of kingdom of Judah
From Religious perspective:
- A Jew is any person whose mother was a Jew or any person who has gone through the formal process of conversion to Judaism
Very good reference Judaism 101: Who Is a Jew?
From political perspective :
- Israel state's Law of Return : a Jew is someone with a Jewish mother or someone who has converted to Judaism.The Israeli Chief Rabbinate requires documents proving the Jewishness of one’s mother, grandmother, great-grandmother and great-great-grandmother
Last possibility if there is any reference in Torah that Ibrahim is a Jew. (as far as I know there is none)
Regarding the Covenant, According to Torah there is also a Covenant is given to Ismail descents as well. By your login, Ismail's descendants are Jews as well.
So, Ibrahim is not a Jew from Historical, Religious, and Political perspectives.
Regards
Your analysis is incorrect. Prior to the establishment of the Kingdoms, we were referred to as the Ivrim (those who cross over), often translated as Hebrews. The Torah refers to Abraham as Avram Ha-Ivri.
Again, incorrect. The act of ritual circumcision to enter into the Covenant is an act of conversion.
And, as I've already explained, Abraham was the first to do so.
Given that the modern State of Israel has only existed for the last 60 years, this example is extremely pathetic.
And my last response applies here as well; Abraham was the first convert.
The Torah does not contain the word "Jew" in it. In Genesis, Abraham is referred to a Ivri, as is the rest of the Jewish people.
Again, incorrect. The descendants of Ismail might have a separate covenant with God, as do the rest of mankind through the Noahide covenant, but it separate from the Covenant the Jewish people have with God. We don't assume that our religion is the only possible path to God or that other people cannot have a legitimate relationship to the Creator.
Limo
Active Member
What do you call incorrect analysis are from Jewish sites. refer to the shared site
If Ibrahim is Ivri (which is true), then all his descendants are Ivris including Ismail's descendants.
What is the co-relation between Ivri and Jew other than Jews are descendants of Jacob Yaqoob?
No, descends of Ismail/Ishmael has a Convenient given to Ibrahim as per Torah.
If you consider Ibrahim is the head of Covenant given to Isaac, Yaqoob/Jacob with the same logic Ibrahim is the head of Ismail Covenant as well. Then he can't be for one side only and be considered as a Jew otherwise, you should consider Ismail and his descends Jews as well
So, Ibrahim is head of 2 Covenants given to his 2 sons according to Torah or actually it's one Covenant given to both sons and his descends.
Apart from the Revelation part for Mary, all my answers are Jesus's own words from the gospels.
No, it is your analysis of the information those sites provided that is incorrect.
Until those people become a separate group, which is what occurred when Hagar and Ismail were sent away.
I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you're asking here.
Abraham is the beginning of both, but each became it's own entity, much the same way that Christians became a separate group from the Jews or that the Americans became a separate group from the British. The Hebrews are the Hebrews and the Ishmaelites are the Ishmaelites. Abraham was the father to both.
God specified that His Covenant would be continued through Isaac, not Ismael. At the same time, God said that Ismael had been blessed and would be a great nation in his own right.
The beginnings of two peoples with two different relationships with God.
Limo
Active Member
The objective of the post is to highlight the difference between Jesus's life/belief/practice to known Christianity(s) in old and current time.
I'll give you quick comments:
- Nicaea 381 ACE creed is neither Jesus sayings nor authenticated by him
- Law and Circumcision, you've given Church leaders thoughts about end of Mosa's Law by resurrection
- Trinity belief has been denied by a considerable number of churches and scholars, even the authentication of Mathew 28:19
- Churches are not synagogues
- Mysteries Mark 9:20 and 10:34 are not clear sign to the greatest incident all over the history as per Churches belief.
- Jesus never praised the cross, If he says to his people take up your cross it points to willing to death
- Jesus never pray to his mother
- You've twisted the scriptures when answering that Jesus read/authenticate/say the Gospels
- Same for confession
Limo
Active Member
Thank you for the discussion
No agreement
I used the Nicean creed for a general idea if what most Christians today believe as an average and then use the gospel words of Jesus to authenticate it.
No I did not. I quoted Jesus directly from the gospels. As you asked. I have directly quoted Jesus and made certain one line conclusions based on them so that its easier for everyone to understand. I do not need a Church leader to tell me how to read.
Here it is again:-
My conclusion:-
Yes, since when he was a man o earth, the Law still remained and had not been fulfilled. After his death and resurrection, the Law was fulfilled and hence all its restrictions were abrogated, including circumcision.
based on Jesus words:-
Why did Jesus come? As he says,
Matthew 5:17
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets; I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. "
How does he do this? As he says,
Luke 24
44 Then he said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you—that everything written about me in the law of Moses, the prophets, and the psalms must be fulfilled.” 45 Then he opened their minds to understand the scriptures, 46 and he said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Messiah is to suffer and to rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and that repentance and forgiveness of sins is to be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things."
What does the fulfilled law constitute of? As Jesus says:-
25 Just then a lawyer stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he said, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? What do you read there?” 27 He answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.” 28 And he said to him, “You have given the right answer; do this, and you will live.”
Furthermore, no commandment was given regarding any other requirement for disciples of other nations, faith alone is sufficient for non-Jewish disciples. As he says:-
Matthew 15
The Canaanite Woman’s Faith
21 Jesus left that place and went away to the district of Tyre and Sidon. 22 Just then a Canaanite woman from that region came out and started shouting, “Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is tormented by a demon.” 23 But he did not answer her at all. And his disciples came and urged him, saying, “Send her away, for she keeps shouting after us.” 24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” 25 But she came and knelt before him, saying, “Lord, help me.” 26 He answered, “It is not fair to take the children’s food and throw it to the dogs.” 27 She said, “Yes, Lord, yet even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters’ table.” 28 Then Jesus answered her, “Woman, great is your faith! Let it be done for you as you wish.” And her daughter was healed instantly.
Similarly for the Roman centurion.
And Jesus explicitly abrogated many of Mose's Laws like the divorce law,
As Jesus said in the gospels:-
Matthew 19
3 Some Pharisees came to him, and to test him they asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any cause?” 4 He answered, “Have you not read that the one who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.” 7 They said to him, “Why then did Moses command us to give a certificate of dismissal and to divorce her?” 8 He said to them, “It was because you were so hard-hearted that Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for unchastity, and marries another commits adultery.”
Oh. Now its some churches and scholars is it? What about authenticity of the gospels and the words of Jesus as you desired initially? Who is moving the goalposts now?
As Jesus said in the gospel
Matthew 28:-
18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”
Yes they are. A church is just the Anglo-German rendition of the Greek word kyriake meaning Lord's House.
Synagogue comes from the Greek synagoge which means the place of assembly which was the word used to translate Hebrew kenesth that means place of assembly.
Both are simply used to mean nothing more or nothing less than a house for assembly and prayer and worship for God.
Online Etymology Dictionary
They are absolutely clear.
He predicted it:-
Mark 9
30 They went on from there and passed through Galilee. He did not want anyone to know it; 31 for he was teaching his disciples, saying to them, “The Son of Man is to be betrayed into human hands, and they will kill him, and three days after being killed, he will rise again.” 32 But they did not understand what he was saying and were afraid to ask him.
And again
Mark 10
He took the twelve aside again and began to tell them what was to happen to him, 33 saying, “See, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be handed over to the chief priests and the scribes, and they will condemn him to death; then they will hand him over to the Gentiles; 34 they will mock him, and spit upon him, and flog him, and kill him; and after three days he will rise again.”
42 So Jesus called them and said to them, “You know that among the Gentiles those whom they recognize as their rulers lord it over them, and their great ones are tyrants over them. 43 But it is not so among you; but whoever wishes to become great among you must be your servant, 44 and whoever wishes to be first among you must be slave of all. 45 For the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life a ransom for many.”
And finally Jesus confirmed all this after resurrection
Luke 24
44 Then he said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you—that everything written about me in the law of Moses, the prophets, and the psalms must be fulfilled.” 45 Then he opened their minds to understand the scriptures, 46 and he said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Messiah is to suffer and to rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and that repentance and forgiveness of sins is to be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things."
Continued
Jesus's instructions of taking up one's own cross can certainly include keeping one with you as a reminder of what one must do to be his disciple.
Luke 9:-
23 Then he said to them all, “If any want to become my followers, let them deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me. 24 For those who want to save their life will lose it, and those who lose their life for my sake will save it.
Your interpretation is completely off-base. Can one die on a daily basis?
Great accusation this. Can you back it up? Here is how Jesus authenticate his own words:-
Luke 9
26 "Those who are ashamed of me and of my words, of them the Son of Man will be ashamed when he comes in his glory and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels. "
And all the words written by the apostles in the entire NT
John 16
12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own, but will speak whatever he hears, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, because he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 15 All that the Father has is mine. For this reason I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.
The Spirit, sent by Jesus authenticate all the words written and spoken by his apostles and recorded in the NT. As said by Jesus himself.
Please do tell how I am twisting the words?
This is hilarious. Did Jesus not explicitly say that his disciples should avoid all public forms of prayer and pray to God only secretly in their rooms. He also told them what to say,
Matthew 6
Concerning Prayer
Jesus said:-
5 “And whenever you pray, do not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, so that they may be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward. 6 But whenever you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.
7 “When you are praying, do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
9 “Pray then in this way:
Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name.
10 Your kingdom come.
Your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And do not bring us to the time of trial,
but rescue us from the evil one.
It does not look like how Muslims pray to Allah at all.
I am quoting scripture. You on the other hand are yet to quote a single line from the Gospels to argue for your point of view.
Nobody praises the cross. Jesus's death on the cross to ransom Christians from sin is what is praised. The cross remains in the churches and houses to remind them of Jesus's sacrifice and to remind them of Jesus's instruction to take up the cross with him. Have you ever attended a Christian worship service?
Jesus's instructions of taking up one's own cross can certainly include keeping one with you as a reminder of what one must do to be his disciple.
Luke 9:-
23 Then he said to them all, “If any want to become my followers, let them deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me. 24 For those who want to save their life will lose it, and those who lose their life for my sake will save it.
Your interpretation is completely off-base. Can one die on a daily basis?
Obviously. Jesus is higher than his mother. Does Allah pray to Himself?
Great accusation this. Can you back it up? Here is how Jesus authenticate his own words:-
Luke 9
26 "Those who are ashamed of me and of my words, of them the Son of Man will be ashamed when he comes in his glory and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels. "
And all the words written by the apostles in the entire NT
John 16
12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own, but will speak whatever he hears, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, because he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 15 All that the Father has is mine. For this reason I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.
The Spirit, sent by Jesus authenticate all the words written and spoken by his apostles and recorded in the NT. As said by Jesus himself.
Please do tell how I am twisting the words?
This is hilarious. Did Jesus not explicitly say that his disciples should avoid all public forms of prayer and pray to God only secretly in their rooms. He also told them what to say,
Matthew 6
Concerning Prayer
Jesus said:-
5 “And whenever you pray, do not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, so that they may be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward. 6 But whenever you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.
7 “When you are praying, do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
9 “Pray then in this way:
Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name.
10 Your kingdom come.
Your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And do not bring us to the time of trial,
but rescue us from the evil one.
It does not look like how Muslims pray to Allah at all.
I am quoting scripture. You on the other hand are yet to quote a single line from the Gospels to argue for your point of view.
Limo
Active Member
If the Gospels are clear and have unified message to the level that someone doesn't need a Church Leader to explain, Church wouldn't divide since Nicaea or even before. Nevertheless, Churches keep divided and will do. I can see from your responses that you're not only referring to Churches leaders thoughts but you're more enthusiastic to it more than Christians themselves.
As you know, there are members of a certain Church but they aren't totally compliant/accepting fully it's belief and practice.
On top of this, If the modern studies shows about 500.000 variations between scriptures after excluding spelling mistakes, you understand that not only me rejecting your insertion/twisting of some statements to support you and your point of view.
Regards
How many sects of Islam are there. Let's see,
And are they living in great cooperative peace? Let's see:-
Blast claimed by Islamic State at famed Sufi shrine in Pakistan kills at least 73
So if the Quran is so clear and everything, why are so many people killing other people regarding its correct interpretation?
There is very little theological difference between Catholics and Eastern Orthodox and they simply cater to the Greek and Latin speaking regions of the ancient Roman Empire.
The Catholic church, in the medieval period, added many non-Biblical aspects in its theology like purgatory, celibate priests only, gospels can only be read and written in Latin. Their church leadership was stuffed by younger aristocratic princelings. The Protestant movement schism-ed over these practices that do not find support in the Bible. Both the Catholic church and the protestant churches have reformed over time, and as Biblical knowledge has become widespread, there is good consensus today on many of the key aspects of the doctrine. The Protestant schisms are less on doctrine and more on keeping the churches small and manageable to avoid the bureaucratic nightmare that the Catholic Church has become. Key Hint:- They are no longer fighting much.
Apart from praying to Mary question, the majority of Christians are in consensus on all the questions you asked.
Today (contrary to medieval assertions of Catholic church), Christians do not believe having a billion churches is a problem, as it is not the intention of God to have one human controlled organization called the church. Instead the church refers to the diverse community of disciples of Jesus who, on hearing his words and deeds, truly take up their cross and follow him and their activities that, guided by the Spirit, nurture the sprouting Kingdom of God on earth.
Consistent with above, a church organization does not dictate what a group of disciples that choose to congregate there ought to believe. They reflect their mean beliefs and provide some amount of guidance and counsel, but the relationship is between the disciples and Jesus and God through the Spirit, and the church's function is assistive, not normative.
The only significant addition has been the added ending in Mark, which is nothing but an abbreviated summary based on Luke and Matthew as Mark's ending is abrupt . Everything else in the gospels is completely minor and are only a few copying errors in a few documents that can easily be corrected for from the majority and does not change anything anywhere.
The current Bible is based on the earliest texts and are faithful to the earliest gospels.
Alexandrian text-type - Wikipedia
Codex Sinaiticus - Wikipedia
Codex Vaticanus - Wikipedia
But I would like an explanation from you as to how these later variants can change Christian beliefs on any of the questions you asked.
List of major textual variants in the New Testament - Wikipedia
Finally, if you are not going to trust the gospels, just do not and leave it at that. Don't say that according to Jesus's words in the gospels are more in keeping with Islam than with Christianity. It is patently not, and I have shown you.
And if you are going to shift your goalposts to historical criticism, I will kindly remind you that all scholarly historians use the NT as the main source for history of Jesus and none use the Quran.
Limo
Active Member
Royal than the king
Although it's not our discussion point but what I can tell. There is only one Islam Sunny's one others you're referring all in all will not be more than 9-10%.
There is no theological differences among Sunnys, it's about some practices.
I'll not comment on this. Just google a little bit about exiles and kick out from Heaven and Jesus kingdom.
I wouldn't devite the discussion to "Jesus Myth" , existence of Historical Jesus, Parallelism of Christianity and Pagan theories,,,, ?
Its mostly about not accepting someone called a Pope.Royal than the king
Although it's not our discussion point but what I can tell. There is only one Islam Sunny's one others you're referring all in all will not be more than 9-10%.
There is no theological differences among Sunnys, it's about some practices.
I'll not comment on this. Just google a little bit about exiles and kick out from Heaven and Jesus kingdom.
I wouldn't devite the discussion to "Jesus Myth" , existence of Historical Jesus, Parallelism of Christianity and Pagan theories,,,, ?
Steps towards a Reunited Church: A Sketch of an Orthodox-Catholic Vision for the Future
No, I do not recommend you go into Pagan and myth theories as they have no association your original premise of taking the words of Jesus in the Gospels as authentic. See, you said
Based on your criteria in this OP, its quite clear Christianity's beliefs and practice better reflect Jesus's words than Islamic ones.
Finally if you are going to go into a historical critical route and talk about myth theories etc., I can do the same on you regarding Islam
Did Muhammad Exist?: An Inquiry Into Islam's Obscure Origins: Robert Spencer: 9781610171335: Amazon.com: Books
Early Islam: A Critical Reconstruction Based on Contemporary Sources: Karl-Heinz Ohlig: 9781616148256: Amazon.com: Books
Limo
Active Member
No, let us stick to the OP objectives.
Regards
Thief
Rogue Theologian
I lean to the parables for testimony of His spirit
which does not seem present in mainstream belief
Its not a bad thing. You write very much alike is all.