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Was Jesus born on Christmas?

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
When was he born? Don't know but it was still warm enough the shepards were still tending sheep in the fields at night. Maybe August????
Who knows for sure? And does it even matter?

"Nearly all aspects of Christmas observance have their roots in Roman custom and religion. Consider the following admission from a large American newspaper (The Buffalo News, Nov. 22, 1984): “The earliest reference to Christmas being marked on Dec. 25 comes from the second century after Jesus' birth. It is considered likely the first Christmas celebrations were in reaction to the Roman Saturnalia, a harvest festival that marked the winter solstice—the return of the sun—and honored Saturn, the god of sowing. Saturnalia was a rowdy time, much opposed by the more austere leaders among the still-minority Christian sect. Christmas developed, one scholar says, as a means of replacing worship of the sun with worship of the Son. By 529 A.D., after Christianity had become the official state religion of the Roman Empire, Emperor Justinian made Christmas a civic holiday. The celebration of Christmas reached its peak—some would say its worst moments—in the medieval period when it became a time for conspicuous consumption and unequaled revelry.”

Source:The True Origin of Christmas

There are many reliable trustworthy sources proving Christ's Mass was adopted from paganism.
This says Christmas was a reaction against Pagan festivities, not a succumbing to them. You might want to read your own sources more carefully next time to make sure that they don't disprove your own point.

As your very own source states, Christmas was a means of defending against pagan influence in Christianity, a bulwark warding off sieges from pagan culture. It was in no way a capitulation of Christianity to paganism, and to say otherwise is to ignore the facts of the case.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Since all things come though God's firstborn [ Colossians 1:15,16 ] who is the ' image ' of the invisible God, then the ' us ' or the who God was talking to would be the one of Rev. 3: 14 B.
What does 1st Corinthinas 8:6 say as to who is the one God, and who is the one Lord ?
Jesus also said that He was in the father, and the Father in Him. Does this indicate to me that there is an ''us'' in this relationship? Not really. 'Us' means to me, in it's literal sense, a separation; Jesus said many times He wasn't 'separate' from the father. I think that those verses are more metaphoric, because who is being referred to, imo, is Jesus the man, specifically. This is the way Jesus the man is ''separated'' from the father; it isn't literal.
//We have two 'Jesus's', basically. One is the man, the ''Messiah'. The other is the Deific, one with the father. The way we can, /literally/, ''know'' the father.
 
"Nearly all aspects of Christmas observance have their roots in Roman custom and religion. Consider the following admission from a large American newspaper (The Buffalo News, Nov. 22, 1984): “The earliest reference to Christmas being marked on Dec. 25 comes from the second century after Jesus' birth. It is considered likely the first Christmas celebrations were in reaction to the Roman Saturnalia, a harvest festival that marked the winter solstice—the return of the sun—and honored Saturn, the god of sowing. Saturnalia was a rowdy time, much opposed by the more austere leaders among the still-minority Christian sect. Christmas developed, one scholar says, as a means of replacing worship of the sun with worship of the Son. By 529 A.D., after Christianity had become the official state religion of the Roman Empire, Emperor Justinian made Christmas a civic holiday. The celebration of Christmas reached its peak—some would say its worst moments—in the medieval period when it became a time for conspicuous consumption and unequaled revelry.”

Source:The True Origin of Christmas

There are many reliable trustworthy sources proving Christ's Mass was adopted from paganism.

Yes..............................:thumbsup:
 
Jesus also said that He was in the father, and the Father in Him. Does this indicate to me that there is an ''us'' in this relationship? Not really. 'Us' means to me, in it's literal sense, a separation; Jesus said many times He wasn't 'separate' from the father. I think that those verses are more metaphoric, because who is being referred to, imo, is Jesus the man, specifically. This is the way Jesus the man is ''separated'' from the father; it isn't literal.
//We have two 'Jesus's', basically. One is the man, the ''Messiah'. The other is the Deific, one with the father. The way we can, /literally/, ''know'' the father.

It is a spiritual union not a literal one.The Son does as the Father says.Jesus is Jehovah God's representative.Notice when Jesus says he and the Father are one the holy spirit is never mentioned in this union.This is God's active force and not a 3rd participant in a Trinitarian union.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Exactly! Also,at the time right before Jesus was born,Joseph and Mary were on their way to Bethlehem for the Census decreed by Caesar Augustus.Joseph was from the house line of David.He was on his way to his birth place.This would not have occurred during the winter.This would have taken place when it is warm.Many were traveling to their home lands to register.
Luke 2:1-3. 1In those days Caesar Augustus issued a decree that a census should be taken of the entire Roman world.2(This was the first census that took place while (Quirinius was governor of Syria.) 3And everyone went to their own town to register.
Mary went into labor when they reached Bethlehem, 4 1/2 miles outside of Jerusalem.
8 days later Jesus was circumcised at the Temple in Jerusalem. All of this occurred before Winter.

Question: Didn't they return to Nazareth after Jesus was circumcised in Jerusalem ?______
Wouldn't that then place the visiting magi, Not in Bethlehem of Judea, but visiting Jesus in Nazareth ?
- Luke 2:39
 
Question: Didn't they return to Nazareth after Jesus was circumcised in Jerusalem ?______
Wouldn't that then place the visiting magi, Not in Bethlehem of Judea, but visiting Jesus in Nazareth ?
- Luke 2:39

Great point! Yeah a lot of people think the Magi were present when the birth of Jesus occurred but this is incorrect.It occurred about 15 months later.The ones who were present at Jesus birth were the Shepherds.The Magi visited Mary and Jesus in a house,not a manger.

Matthew 2:11. 11On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh

People do not take into consideration too that these Magi,who's numbers are never mentioned,had to travel from a far distance in the East.This would have normally happened by way of caravan.It would have taken some time to get there.
 

jeager106

Learning more about Jehovah.
Premium Member
Who knows for sure? And does it even matter?


This says Christmas was a reaction against Pagan festivities, not a succumbing to them. You might want to read your own sources more carefully next time to make sure that they don't disprove your own point.

As your very own source states, Christmas was a means of defending against pagan influence in Christianity, a bulwark warding off sieges from pagan culture. It was in no way a capitulation of Christianity to paganism, and to say otherwise is to ignore the facts of the case.
Origin of Christmas | The history of Christmas and how it began

C.In the 4th century CE, Christianity imported the Saturnalia festival hoping to take the pagan masses in with it. Christian leaders succeeded in converting to Christianity large numbers of pagans by promising them that they could continue to celebrate the Saturnalia as Christians.[2]

D.The problem was that there was nothing intrinsically Christian about Saturnalia. To remedy this, these Christian leaders named Saturnalia’s concluding day, December 25th, to be Jesus’ birthday.

No it wasn't a defense from paganism, it was blending paganism to gain converts to Christianity.
The 4th century "church" adopted pagan Saturnalia promising pagans that they could keep the pagan holiday as Christains.
Every common symbol in the Christmas celebration is pagan from the evergreen tree, to the yule, to gift giving, celebrating b-days, something Jews never did and Jesus was a Jew.
The truth is out there and easy to find from many reliable sources.
Jesus would never have accepted celebrating his birth.
Satan is smart, clever, has lots of time to dilute the message of Jesus.
Nearly all Christian denominations show evidence of a watered down message from Christ and pagan influences abound in nearly all Christian denominations.
Just look and you shall see.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
Origin of Christmas | The history of Christmas and how it began

C.In the 4th century CE, Christianity imported the Saturnalia festival hoping to take the pagan masses in with it. Christian leaders succeeded in converting to Christianity large numbers of pagans by promising them that they could continue to celebrate the Saturnalia as Christians.[2]

D.The problem was that there was nothing intrinsically Christian about Saturnalia. To remedy this, these Christian leaders named Saturnalia’s concluding day, December 25th, to be Jesus’ birthday.

No it wasn't a defense from paganism, it was blending paganism to gain converts to Christianity.
The 4th century "church" adopted pagan Saturnalia promising pagans that they could keep the pagan holiday as Christains.
What evidence is there to support that website's claim? Why should I take them seriously? What research did they do to supposedly know the motivations for the celebration of Christ's Nativity being moved from January 6th to December 25th?

Every common symbol in the Christmas celebration is pagan from the evergreen tree, to the yule, to gift giving, celebrating b-days, something Jews never did and Jesus was a Jew.
Except, none of the stuff we typically associate with Christmas--very Germanic things--were ever a part of Christian celebration of Christ's Nativity in other parts of the world like Syria, Palestine, Egypt, Persia, India and Greece. The phenomenon we attach to Christmas in America are originally from Germany (Christmas trees) and the Netherlands (Santa Claus, or Sinterklaas in Dutch). And to this day, I don't even know what a Yule log is, because I've never seen one before. Heck, Santa Claus as he's known today didn't exist before around the 1800's.

The truth is out there and easy to find from many reliable sources.
Indeed, and you seem to have trouble finding them.

Nearly all Christian denominations show evidence of a watered down message from Christ and pagan influences abound in nearly all Christian denominations.
Just look and you shall see.
Watered-down message? Sounds like a lot of American Christian denominations.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
What evidence is there to support that website's claim? Why should I take them seriously? What research did they do to supposedly know the motivations for the celebration of Christ's Nativity being moved from January 6th to December 25th?

Except, none of the stuff we typically associate with Christmas--very Germanic things--were ever a part of Christian celebration of Christ's Nativity in other parts of the world like Syria, Palestine, Egypt, Persia, India and Greece. The phenomenon we attach to Christmas in America are originally from Germany (Christmas trees) and the Netherlands (Santa Claus, or Sinterklaas in Dutch). And to this day, I don't even know what a Yule log is, because I've never seen one before. Heck, Santa Claus as he's known today didn't exist before around the 1800's.

Indeed, and you seem to have trouble finding them.

Watered-down message? Sounds like a lot of American Christian denominations.
It's like very few people here have celebrated Christmas in a non-Germanic context. It's totally different; (in a symbolic etc. way.) that's why I think all this 'pagan' association stuff is overblown, as well.
 

Wharton

Active Member
Once again, it's when the church decided to celebrate the feast. The feast of John the Baptist is celebrated in summer when light begins to decrease ( Scripture:I must decrease while he increases). The feast of Christmas is celebrated when light begins to increase.

And to make sure it's not celebrated as a pagan feast day, it's a holy day of obligation and mass attendance is mandatory. Thus, Christ's Mass.
Yes..............................:thumbsup:
And JW's celebrated Christmas until when?
 

Kolibri

Well-Known Member
And JW's celebrated Christmas until when?

Mid to late 1920's

*** jv chap. 14 pp. 198-199 “They Are No Part of the World” ***
Firm adherence to these Bible standards by Jehovah’s Witnesses has earned them a reputation for separateness from the world that reminds people of the early Christians.
When the World Had Its Holidays
When Jehovah’s Witnesses cast aside religious teachings that had pagan roots, they also quit sharing in many customs that were similarly tainted. But for a time, certain holidays were not given the careful scrutiny that they needed. One of these was Christmas.
This holiday was celebrated yearly even by members of the Watch Tower Society’s headquarters staff at the Bethel Home in Brooklyn, New York. For many years they had been aware that December 25 was not the correct date, but they reasoned that the date had long been popularly associated with the birth of the Savior and that doing good for others was proper on any day. However, after further investigation of the subject, the members of the Society’s headquarters staff, as well as the staffs at the Society’s branch offices in England and in Switzerland, decided to stop sharing in Christmas festivities, so no Christmas celebration was held there after 1926.
R. H. Barber, a member of the headquarters staff who made a thorough investigation of the origin of Christmas customs and the fruitage that these were yielding, presented the results in a radio broadcast. That information was also published in The Golden Age of December 12, 1928. It was a thorough exposé of the God-dishonoring roots of Christmas. Since then, the pagan roots of Christmas customs have become general public knowledge, but few people make changes in their way of life as a result. On the other hand, Jehovah’s Witnesses were willing to make needed changes in order to be more acceptable as servants of Jehovah.
When shown that celebrating the birth of Jesus had actually become of greater interest to people than the ransom provided by his death; that the revelry of the holiday and the spirit in which many gifts were given did not honor God; that the magi whose gift-giving was being imitated were actually demon-inspired astrologers; that parents set an example for their children in lying by what they told them about Santa Claus; that “St. Nicholas” (Santa Claus) was admittedly another name for the Devil himself; and that such festivals were, as acknowledged by Cardinal Newman in his Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine, “the very instruments and appendages of demon-worship” the church had adopted—when made aware of these things, Jehovah’s Witnesses promptly and permanently stopped having any part in Christmas celebrations.
Jehovah’s Witnesses have good times with their families and friends. But they do not participate in holidays and celebrations that are linked with pagan gods (as is true of such holidays as Easter, New Year’s Day, May Day, and Mother’s Day). (2 Cor. 6:14-17) Like the early Christians, they do not even celebrate birthdays. They also respectfully refrain from sharing in national holidays that memorialize political or military events and refrain from giving worshipful honor to national heroes. Why? Because Jehovah’s Witnesses are no part of the world.
 

wgw

Member
What evidence is there to support that website's claim? Why should I take them seriously? What research did they do to supposedly know the motivations for the celebration of Christ's Nativity being moved from January 6th to December 25th?

Except, none of the stuff we typically associate with Christmas--very Germanic things--were ever a part of Christian celebration of Christ's Nativity in other parts of the world like Syria, Palestine, Egypt, Persia, India and Greece. The phenomenon we attach to Christmas in America are originally from Germany (Christmas trees) and the Netherlands (Santa Claus, or Sinterklaas in Dutch). And to this day, I don't even know what a Yule log is, because I've never seen one before. Heck, Santa Claus as he's known today didn't exist before around the 1800's.

Indeed, and you seem to have trouble finding them.

Watered-down message? Sounds like a lot of American Christian denominations.

The Jehovah's Witnesses in general seem to prefer to ignore the qualifies scholarship in each area.

By the way, let me also say this, Pagan does not mean bad. If the church adopted and baptized aspects of pagan worship, as part of the process of acculturation, that is good. For remember, there is neither Jew nor Greek, neither Male nor Female. Many of the ancient religions other than Judaism taught solid moral truths and were praiseworthy, for example,the Cult of the Unknown God in Greece, which was known for its members enthusiastic uptake of Chrisrianity. Another example would be Zoroastrianism, a monotheistic religion that can be interpreted as anti-Hinduism; most scholars believe that Judaism acquired the idea of a devil and numerous other influences involving the Angels and archangels from this religion. I would stop short of calling Zoroaster, or Zarathustra as he is known in the Avestan language, as a true prophet of God, but I often wonder if he and Melchizedek and Abraham were in a sense practitioners of or participants in some ancient hieratic religion originating from the descendants of Noah. Zoroastrianism gains even more legitimacy in relation to Christianity when one considers that Zoroastrian priests, or Mobeds, were in the West known as Magi; they varied widely in their morals, but we see the noble example of the Three Magi attending the Birth of Christ, and the more ignominious case of Simon Magus (and if we believe Irenaeus that he was the founder of Gnosticism, his status as a stray Magus, probably suspended by his high priest and working as a freelance magician as it were, would explain the Zoroastrian-like rituals in Mandaeism, the last surviving Gnostic religion, which worships John the Baptist and practices weekly baptism).

Now it is true that the Gods of the Gentiles are demons (Psalm 95 v 5 LXX). However Zoroastrianism as a monotheistic or dualistic religion that appears to be the source of much of what is in the Old Testament, and which regards the Daevas, or divine beings, of Hinduism (whose Vedic rites are conducted around a sacred fire like the Zoroastrian Avesta), as Devils. Notice also the etymological link between Daevas and devil, and the worst aspects one could think of in a religion being present in some Hindu sects; the cruelty of some Brahmin priests, like one who a few months ago bashed in the head of a Dalit or untouchable boy who wandered into his temple looking for candy (which is distributed to non-Dalits therein), or the Aghoris who live in cremation grounds and engage in vile and debased practices.

So it is easy to speculate of an ancient hieratic religion that is the origin of Judaism and which in earlier centuries encompassed Zoroastrianism and the religion of Melchizedek, which found its fulfillment in Jesus Christ. This makes sense in light of the archaeological evidence which disfavors a strictly literal interpretation of the Old Testament; the Old Testament works as a typological, allegorical and in some cases quasi-historical prophecy of the coming incarnation of the Word, of God taking flesh to redeem and sanctify his creation.

It should also be stressed that the incarnation as understood in Orthodox, Catholic and mainline Protestant Christianity is a unique religious concept. The idea that God would become man in order to show us what it means to be human, and provide for our deification, and our fulfillment as persons, not the dissolving of our personal hood into an impersonal deity like Brahmin, is unique among the world religions. And it's a very hard pill to swallow. All the early heresies involved attempts to deny it. Docetism "Well, God didn't really become human." Arianism "Well it wasn't really God". One should also say that Arianism emerged more than 300 years after the death of John and was immediately condemned as an innovation. The Arians, whose doctrine the Jehovah's Witnesses most closely follow, used their influence at court to violently subjugate the Orthodox who believe in the divinity of Christ for most of the fourth century.

I also must confess I find the appellation "Bible Student" to be disagreeable. At what accredited university or seminary are you scholars of the Bible? Why is it that you show so little familiarity with the major works of academic scholarship since, well, the time of Christ? And why do you insist on disputing so violently with those who disagree with you? And why does your religion exercise such close and overbearing control on its members, including the shunning of apostates?
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
It's like very few people here have celebrated Christmas in a non-Germanic context. It's totally different; (in a symbolic etc. way.) that's why I think all this 'pagan' association stuff is overblown, as well.

It does also seem that the word ' pagan ' seems out of date today.
The ancient Jews did Not celebrate the day of one's birth [ Ecclesiastes 7:1 ], but non-Jews did.
The 1st-century Christians did Not set aside a day to celebrate in order to give honor to the creation [ Romans 1:25], but it was the non-Christians who did.
 

Wharton

Active Member
When shown that celebrating the birth of Jesus had actually become of greater interest to people than the ransom provided by his death; that the revelry of the holiday and the spirit in which many gifts were given did not honor God; that the magi whose gift-giving was being imitated were actually demon-inspired astrologers; that parents set an example for their children in lying by what they told them about Santa Claus; that “St. Nicholas” (Santa Claus) was admittedly another name for the Devil himself; and that such festivals were, as acknowledged by Cardinal Newman in his Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine, “the very instruments and appendages of demon-worship” the church had adopted—when made aware of these things, Jehovah’s Witnesses promptly and permanently stopped having any part in Christmas
More JW garbage. BTW, quoting what you consider an apostate Trinitarian to support your view is funny. Do you believe everything else in that essay?

Please quote the man correctly. It seems the governing body likes to deceive its members. When are you going to wake up to the deception?

"Confiding then in the power of Christianity to resist the infection of evil and to transmute the very instruments and appendages of demon-worship to an evangelical use, and feeling also that these usages had originally come from primitive revelations, and from the instinct of nature, though they had been corrupted ; and that they must invent what they needed, if they did not use what they found ; and that they were moreover possessed of the very archetypes of which paganism attempted the shadows ; the rulers of the Church from early times were prepared, should occasion arise, to adopt or imitate or sanction the existing rites and customs of the populace as well as the philosophy of the educated class."

Anybody else found in scripture that uses the same tactic? Paul. To the Jew, I will be a Jew. To those outside the law, I will be outside the law. Ring a bell? Whatever it takes to bring a person to Jesus.
 

wgw

Member
More JW garbage. BTW, quoting what you consider an apostate Trinitarian to support your view is funny. Do you believe everything else in that essay?

Please quote the man correctly. It seems the governing body likes to deceive its members. When are you going to wake up to the deception?

"Confiding then in the power of Christianity to resist the infection of evil and to transmute the very instruments and appendages of demon-worship to an evangelical use, and feeling also that these usages had originally come from primitive revelations, and from the instinct of nature, though they had been corrupted ; and that they must invent what they needed, if they did not use what they found ; and that they were moreover possessed of the very archetypes of which paganism attempted the shadows ; the rulers of the Church from early times were prepared, should occasion arise, to adopt or imitate or sanction the existing rites and customs of the populace as well as the philosophy of the educated class."

Anybody else found in scripture that uses the same tactic? Paul. To the Jew, I will be a Jew. To those outside the law, I will be outside the law. Ring a bell? Whatever it takes to bring a person to Jesus.

Recall that the "Bible Students" believe that only 144,000 will be saved to the extent of living with Jesusmin the clouds, the rest enjoying a sort of sensuous paradise on a New Earth. To,date, more,than 144,000 Jehovah's Witnesses have given testimony they are among the 144,000. But either way it's a strange doctrine and another Gospel. And I don't like the way members of that religion are trying to dominate threads in the Christianity DIR. A DIR should be created for them if it does not exist already.
 

Wharton

Active Member
Recall that the "Bible Students" believe that only 144,000 will be saved to the extent of living with Jesusmin the clouds, the rest enjoying a sort of sensuous paradise on a New Earth. To,date, more,than 144,000 Jehovah's Witnesses have given testimony they are among the 144,000. But either way it's a strange doctrine and another Gospel. And I don't like the way members of that religion are trying to dominate threads in the Christianity DIR. A DIR should be created for them if it does not exist already.
I often wonder why Jehovah needs 144,000 Jehovah's Witnesses to help him rule from heaven. I can only assume that JW Jehovah is not omnipotent since he needs help?

Actually, they're not even supposed to be on the internet. Especially conversing with we apostates, faders and opposers.
 

Kolibri

Well-Known Member
To,date, more,than 144,000 Jehovah's Witnesses have given testimony they are among the 144,000.

reference?

Especially conversing with we apostates, faders and opposers.

Are you specifically an ex-Jehovah's Witness that I should be shunning? I already have one person on ignore so I am not tempted to reply. I have others I have nearly done so for other reasons.
 
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