Was Jesus Sent to be Crucified?

[javajo]

Have you ever done any study into Christian history concerning the doctrine of the atonement to see how "modern" it may be?

Its in my Bible so its not too modern.

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. Romans 5

 

[Many Sages One Truth]

Its in my Bible so its not too modern.

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. Romans 5

Ah yes, the favorite fundamentalist response when one references Christian history, "well the Bible says". I don't interpret that verse that way at all.

 

[javajo]

Ah yes, the favorite fundamentalist response when one references Christian history, "well the Bible says". I don't interpret that verse that way at all.

Its not circular reasoning. Your wheel up there is. But to say the Atonement is not modern because its in the Bible written long ago is not. Also, how do you interpret words? By the actual meaning or by what you want it to mean? It says we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son. That is the Atonement. Anyway, that is my belief, believe what you like, I won't attack your religion.

 

[Many Sages One Truth]

Its not circular reasoning. Your wheel up there is. But to say the Atonement is not modern because its in the Bible written long ago is not. Also, how do you interpret words? By the actual meaning or by what you want it to mean? It says we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son. That is the Atonement. Anyway, that is my belief, believe what you like, I won't attack your religion.

No actually it puts much more emphasis on the life of Jesus, and us being alive in him. But since you insist on thinking Paul is the end all, I did say I think this idea started to develop back then. Do you feel there are any indicators to believe that Jesus himself believed he was a sacrifice, or do you just take Paul's personal belief as Jesus' word on the matter?

 

[no-body]

The doctrine of the Atonement is not modern, but I believe it is true and I thank God for it. I believe we can trust in Christ to have paid the penalty of sin, which is death, or we can pay the penalty ourselves. Since he already paid it, its a no-brainer for me to accept the free gift. Its brilliant, actually. God is able to be just toward sin and still save us. Amazing. That's my belief.

Yes God's gift is "free" like when a business uses the word free*

*certain rules and restrictions apply

 

[sojourner]

Its in my Bible so its not too modern.

Is it?

 

[sojourner]

It says we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son.

Does it?

 

[javajo]

No actually it puts much more emphasis on the life of Jesus, and us being alive in him.

The verse says we were reconciled to God by the death of his son, so I believe that is how we were made alive in him, where we were once spiritually dead toward God. As Col. 2:13 says: And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened (made alive) together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Peter said his death brought us to God as well in 1 Peter 3:18: For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh,

But since you insist on thinking Paul is the end all, I did say I think this idea started to develop back then

As I said above, Peter also said this and Peter also confirmed Paul's epistles as being scripture: even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 2 Peter 3:15b-16

I would point out as well that Paul tells us the whole church age was 'a mystery', or hidden from man until it was revealed by Christ. Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: Romans 16:25, Eph. 3:3-6

Do you feel there are any indicators to believe that Jesus himself believed he was a sacrifice, or do you just take Paul's personal belief as Jesus' word on the matter?

I've quoted too much scripture. Many times over, Jesus told his disciples that according to, or in fulfillment of scripture (OT) he must go to Jerusalem, be mocked and spitefully entreated, and put to death and on the third day rise again. He said that as the serpent was lifted on the bronze pole, he must be lifted up, signifying how he would die. He expounded to the two on the road to Emmaus how he had to die according to scripture. I would add that I believe the whole Bible, all 66 books are the Word of God.

 

[Me Myself]

I would add that I believe the whole Bible, all 66 books are the Word of God.

Including the parts where saints curse children to be mauled by bears and the two contradicting creation stories, and the part where slaves and genocides where okay and the parts where Paul is sexist?

 

[javajo]

Yes God's gift is "free" like when a business uses the word free*

*certain rules and restrictions apply

Free means free, we bring nothing but our sin, he gives us his righteousness freely. Romans 4 says:

1 What should we say about those things? What did our father Abraham discover about being right with God? 2 Did he become right with God because of something he did? If so, he could brag about it. But he couldn't brag to God. 3 What do we find in Scripture? It says, "Abraham believed God. God accepted Abraham's faith, and so his faith made him right with God."—(Genesis 15:6) 4 When a man works, his pay is not considered a gift. It is owed to him. 5 But things are different with God. He makes evil people right with himself. If people trust in him, their faith is accepted even though they do not work. Their faith makes them right with God. 6 King David says the same thing. He tells us how blessed some people are. God makes those people right with himself. But they don't have to do anything in return.

 

[javajo]

Does it?

Need a different verse than Romans 5:10?
Colossians 1:20-22 (KJV) 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

Is it?

Yes, as it says in Romans 5:10, "...we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son..."

 

[javajo]

Including the parts where saints curse children to be mauled by bears and the two contradicting creation stories, and the part where slaves and genocides where okay and the parts where Paul is sexist?

Yup. However I understand/interperet that much differently than you do.

 

[Me Myself]

Yup. However I understand/interperet that much differently than you do.

Holy Spirit being sarcastical?

 

[no-body]

Free means free, we bring nothing but our sin, he gives us his righteousness freely. Romans 4 says:

1 What should we say about those things? What did our father Abraham discover about being right with God? 2 Did he become right with God because of something he did? If so, he could brag about it. But he couldn't brag to God. 3 What do we find in Scripture? It says, "Abraham believed God. God accepted Abraham's faith, and so his faith made him right with God."—(Genesis 15:6) 4 When a man works, his pay is not considered a gift. It is owed to him. 5 But things are different with God. He makes evil people right with himself. If people trust in him, their faith is accepted even though they do not work. Their faith makes them right with God. 6 King David says the same thing. He tells us how blessed some people are. God makes those people right with himself. But they don't have to do anything in return.

I would expect the same sort of propaganda if I read a pamphlet written by, for and about the corporation that is giving out the free gifts too.

 

[waitasec]

God knew they would be disobedient as we all are and it was all part of his great plan to bring salvation to all of us. But we must remember, our Saviour came from the Chosen People, the Jewish people and God loves them and is not finished with them by any means. So, Jesus did come as Messiah, but was crucified, but he knew that would happen. He was sent to be Messiah, but knew he would be crucified, so its really both, he was sent to be crucified and he was crucified, for you and me.

so why was he crucified after the flood?
why not before if god knew there would be a need for salvation...
i don't understand why we have the option to choose
when the people who perished in the flood didn't. what makes us so special?
i see goal posts being moved and it's no coincidence that politics and social unrest played a roll in it.

 

[javajo]

I would expect the same sort of propaganda if I read a pamphlet written by, for and about the corporation that is giving out the free gifts too.

Calling God's Word propaganda, to me seems very unwise. Despite what you may have been told, the Bible says salvation is a free gift. Protest and argue all you want, its fine with me. My opinion won't change and I'm sure yours won't either.

 

[javajo]

so why was he crucified after the flood?
why not before if god knew there would be a need for salvation...
i don't understand why we have the option to choose
when the people who perished in the flood didn't. what makes us so special?
i see goal posts being moved and it's no coincidence that politics and social unrest played a roll in it.

He came in the fullness of time. I don't presume to know God's mind, but I do trust him. I can see you do not believe. I won't argue with you. Object away.

 

[Shermana]

One of the fundamental beliefs of Christianity is that Jesus had died and allowed for the shedding of his blood for the sake of granting forgiveness to people. In other words Jesus had died on the cross as a sacrifice for our sins. Let us investigate this topic from the Bible, and find out whether Jesus was sent to be crucified or that he was crucified!

Isaiah 53 specifically mentions him as the Guilt offering (which I believe serves as a temporary replacement until the Temple Sacrifice begins again).

Yashua refers to himself as the one whom the Father sent several times.

The "Salvation" Yashua came to bring was to lead the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel (Whom he came alone for) away from sin, and to provide the means of atonement as the Guilt Offering. "Salvation" is not something one has merely by claiming to believe but by Striving for the narrow gate and "Enduring until the end" and obeying all of Yashua's teachings. The NT is clear that everyone will be judged according to their works and that good deeds will ensure a better fate for one, so in order to steer clear from going to hell after one dies, one needs to have faith in Yashua not just as the Guilt Offering but in all his teachings. One without the other means being called Lukewarm or Lawless which = getting spat out.

Zecharah 12:10, as Jesus quotes it, is "The one whom they pierced". (Not "Me" whom they pierced as many translations put in BLATANT CONTRADICTION to what Jesus says).

 

[Shermana]

Calling God's Word propaganda, to me seems very unwise. Despite what you may have been told, the Bible says salvation is a free gift. Protest and argue all you want, its fine with me. My opinion won't change and I'm sure yours won't either.

Can you get the passage that says Salvation is a "Free" "Gift" and what the conditions for this "Free" "Gift" are?

 

[Shermana]

Including the parts where saints curse children to be mauled by bears and the two contradicting creation stories, and the part where slaves and genocides where okay and the parts where Paul is sexist?

Man is created before Adam. Rabbis have a tradition of 900 generations before Adam. Who did Cain build cities for, 2 people? Built a bunch of empty buildings?

The "Children" were actually "young adults" who got mauled. The word "Youth" only means "Children" when it directly implies in the text like "suckling youths". Otherwise, it means "Servant" (the word itself means "lesser one") or "Young adult" in almost all other cases by itself, like the word "Youth" itself, it CAN mean "Children".