Was Jesus Sent to be Crucified?

[waitasec]

He came in the fullness of time. I don't presume to know God's mind, but I do trust him. I can see you do not believe. I won't argue with you. Object away.

can you see that you do presume to know gods mind...

 

[no-body]

Calling God's Word propaganda, to me seems very unwise. Despite what you may have been told, the Bible says salvation is a free gift. Protest and argue all you want, its fine with me. My opinion won't change and I'm sure yours won't either.

That only works if the bible is the perfect word of God. If the bible where perfect, there wouldn't be thousands of interpretations and versions of it. You don't give a good reason why your message is any different from the Muslim down the street peddling the Koran as the perfect word of God. It comes down to personal belief and not logic, no matter how much you hem and haw that you can reason your way to the Christian God.

 

[javajo]

can you see that you do presume to know gods mind...

Trust me, I don't. I only believe what is revealed in scripture, and it says:

These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. 1 John 5:13

 

[waitasec]

That only works if the bible is the perfect word of God. If the bible where perfect, there wouldn't be thousands of interpretations and versions of it. You don't give a good reason why your message is any different from the Muslim down the street peddling the Koran as the perfect word of God. It comes down to personal belief and not logic, no matter how much you hem and haw that you can reason your way to the Christian God.

what he said!!

 

[waitasec]

Trust me, I don't. I only believe what is revealed in scripture, and it says:

These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. 1 John 5:13

i understand where you are coming from but
who wrote that?
someone who presumed to know the mind of god

no-body said it best...

That only works if the bible is the perfect word of God. If the bible where perfect, there wouldn't be thousands of interpretations and versions of it. You don't give a good reason why your message is any different from the Muslim down the street peddling the Koran as the perfect word of God. It comes down to personal belief and not logic,...

 

[javajo]

That only works if the bible is the perfect word of God. If the bible where perfect, there wouldn't be thousands of interpretations and versions of it.

I believe it is God's Word. I believe the original autographs were inspired and then it was copied into many languages well enough that we can understand it quite well. I believe God used language quite well to give us his intended message. Peter said some things are hard to understand and have been twisted by some, but I believe an honest person can 'get it'.

You don't give a good reason why your message is any different from the Muslim down the street peddling the Koran as the perfect word of God.

I believe there is a great difference between the two books, but I won't get into that now.

It comes down to personal belief and not logic, no matter how much you hem and haw that you can reason your way to the Christian God.

Well, I got there by simple faith in Christ but I did not leave my intelligence at the door. All my life, as a teenager and through to my middle age I have studied and studied. I can tell you, the more I studied and learned the more clear it became to me that the Bible is indeed, the Word of God and is the truth. I believe every man must study diligently and honestly these things. Unfortunately, many people do their best to throw up every argument they can imagine to not believe. They have already made up their minds. That, to me, is very sad.

 

[javajo]

i understand where you are coming from but
who wrote that?
someone who presumed to know the mind of god

You 'presume to know' they were not written by inspiration of God. How do you know for sure they only 'presumed to know the mind of god'? What if what they wrote was, indeed, God-breathed scripture, written as the writers were inspired directly by the Holy Spirit of God? Then what? If they prophesied a nation of antiquity would be scattered and become a nation again after almost 2,000 years, a feat which no nation has ever done, until Israel in 1948 fulfilled the prophecy to the detail, then what? The Bible says only God can do that. He did it over and over in real history. Anyway...

 

[waitasec]

You 'presume to know' they were not written by inspiration of God. How do you know for sure they only 'presumed to know the mind of god'? What if what they wrote was, indeed, God-breathed scripture, written as the writers were inspired directly by the Holy Spirit of God? Then what? If they prophesied a nation of antiquity would be scattered and become a nation again after almost 2,000 years, a feat which no nation has ever done, until Israel in 1948 fulfilled the prophecy to the detail, then what? The Bible says only God can do that. He did it over and over in real history. Anyway...

the reason i know is because the bible isn't empirically understood.

if it rains you will get wet, no argument to the contrary...why? because it is empirically understood.

 

[javajo]

the reason i know is because the bible isn't empirically understood.

if it rains you will get wet, no argument to the contrary...why? because it is empirically understood.

What if there is enough evidence that could be put together that could be empirically understood? That is one thing that cemented my belief, studying Christian Apologetics.

 

[waitasec]

What if there is enough evidence that could be put together that could be empirically understood? That is one thing that cemented my belief, studying Christian Apologetics.

truth will not consider anyones feelings and apologizes to no one...



look, if it makes sense to you, fine i am truly happy for you, but i suggest, and it's only a suggestion, to think twice about saying people aren't being honest in their understanding of it, especially if they don't understand it the way you do.

 

[no-body]

I believe it is God's Word. I believe the original autographs were inspired and then it was copied into many languages well enough that we can understand it quite well. I believe God used language quite well to give us his intended message. Peter said some things are hard to understand and have been twisted by some, but I believe an honest person can 'get it'.

Call a subjective experience objective all you like but it does not make it so. If you ram a square peg into a round hole it will fit eventually, but you will break the peg.

I believe there is a great difference between the two books, but I won't get into that now. Well, I got there by simple faith in Christ but I did not leave my intelligence at the door. All my life, as a teenager and through to my middle age I have studied and studied. I can tell you, the more I studied and learned the more clear it became to me that the Bible is indeed, the Word of God and is the truth. I believe every man must study diligently and honestly these things. Unfortunately, many people do their best to throw up every argument they can imagine to not believe. They have already made up their minds. That, to me, is very sad.

Pot, meet kettle.

 

[javajo]

truth will not consider anyones feelings and apologizes to no one...

Interesting.

look, if it makes sense to you, fine i am truly happy for you, but i suggest, and it's only a suggestion, to think twice about saying people aren't being honest in their understanding of it, especially if they don't understand it the way you do.

Thanks, I know I should not question people's sincerity, as I don't know what is truly in their hearts. Its just that when someone shares their belief in the Bible, a lot of times a whole bunch of people start making fun and acting as if the person is an idiot for believing in Christ. Or they throw up every objection they can instead of trying to learn more about the other people's faiths. Then, when they try to explain, its just more smokescreens and far out arguments and one-liners. Sometimes it makes me think that maybe there are many who love their sinful lifestyles so much they do not want to consider there is a holy God they may have to answer to someday. I know its awful for me to think that and I am sure most people who would be concerned with 'religious' things and who would spend time on Religious Forums would be honest seekers of God and of truth. Maybe I just need a Snickers Bar. Anyway, thanks, and sorry. I will try to keep such thoughts to myself, or better yet try not to harbor such thoughts. Peace.

 

[javajo]

Call a subjective experience objective all you like but it does not make it so. If you ram a square peg into a round hole it will fit eventually, but you will break the peg.

I don't like subjective and I don't base my beliefs on experience, but on the Bible. It fits very nicely to me. I examine things objectively. If I see error, I reject it. If I see truth, I embrace it. Despite what seem to some be seemingly insurmountable inconsistencies or errors or what have you, I find harmony and truth in the Bible. And I don't leave my intelligence at the door.

 

[Shermana]

Or they throw up every objection they can instead of trying to learn more about the other people's faiths.

Maybe (some of) their objections are legitimate holes in the Theological doctrines some carry?

 

[no-body]

I don't like subjective and I don't base my beliefs on experience, but on the Bible. It fits very nicely to me. I examine things objectively. If I see error, I reject it. If I see truth, I embrace it. Despite what seem to some be seemingly insurmountable inconsistencies or errors or what have you, I find harmony and truth in the Bible. And I don't leave my intelligence at the door.

Basing your beliefs on the bible isn't objective no matter how much you say it isn't.

 

[javajo]

Maybe (some of) their objections are legitimate holes in the Theological doctrines some carry?

Never! JK!

 

[javajo]

Basing your beliefs on the bible isn't objective no matter how much you say it isn't.

OK then.

 

[waitasec]

Interesting.


Thanks, I know I should not question people's sincerity, as I don't know what is truly in their hearts. Its just that when someone shares their belief in the Bible, a lot of times a whole bunch of people start making fun and acting as if the person is an idiot for believing in Christ.

i get that. i really do. but where is this peace christians keep talking about...?
see to me that is the meat and potatoes of the entire thing. yes christians are human but christians are supposed to be set apart and i don't see it...
they behave in an insecure manner as anyone else would...

Or they throw up every objection they can instead of trying to learn more about the other people's faiths.

if i am skeptical and have a reasonable question about the object of my skepticism, why shouldn't i bring that to the table?

Then, when they try to explain, its just more smokescreens and far out arguments and one-liners. Sometimes it makes me think that maybe there are many who love their sinful lifestyles so much they do not want to consider there is a holy God they may have to answer to someday.

again that is you judging others because they don't share the same POV as you do.

I know its awful for me to think that and I am sure most people who would be concerned with 'religious' things and who would spend time on Religious Forums would be honest seekers of God and of truth. Maybe I just need a Snickers Bar. Anyway, thanks, and sorry. I will try to keep such thoughts to myself, or better yet try not to harbor such thoughts. Peace.

no worries...i don't blame you for feeling that way....you are human after all.
for me, and i'm still learning this, if we don't personalize ideals, meaning equate the person with the ideal, then the discussion can be very educational.. it's hard being objective especially when it comes to religion but in order to learn it's the best approach.

 

[javajo]

I think people forget that. We are all human. Just because a person has seen their need and placed their trust in Christ doesn't make them different over night. A person who has trusted Christ I think, may be more aware of their sinfulness and shortcomings than others who see nothing wrong with themselves. I myself am a terrible sinner, although over the decades I have grown as I yield to the Holy Spirit who is working in me. It is somewhat true, the cliche that Christians are not perfect, just forgiven. When one comes to Christ they come as they are with their sins and imperfections. When they get saved they are still there. But God loves us so much he begins the process of correction (not punishment) although it can be painful, and as we yield to him, we begin to grow and mature in grace. It is easy to tell the difference between an immature very carnal christian and a mature less carnal christian. And a christian may have matured in some areas and not in other areas and everyone has areas they are weaker in than others.

 

[waitasec]

I think people forget that. We are all human. Just because a person has seen their need and placed their trust in Christ doesn't make them different over night. A person who has trusted Christ I think, may be more aware of their sinfulness and shortcomings than others who see nothing wrong with themselves. I myself am a terrible sinner, although over the decades I have grown as I yield to the Holy Spirit who is working in me. It is somewhat true, the cliche that Christians are not perfect, just forgiven. When one comes to Christ they come as they are with their sins and imperfections. When they get saved they are still there. But God loves us so much he begins the process of correction (not punishment) although it can be painful, and as we yield to him, we begin to grow and mature in grace. It is easy to tell the difference between an immature very carnal christian and a mature less carnal christian. And a christian may have matured in some areas and not in other areas and everyone has areas they are weaker in than others.

that is possible or it could justify and perpetuate their ignorance.
people don't need religion to know they are faulty, all they need to do is become more aware of their actions.
i see no difference when people try to improve their lives. no one is perfect but we, and i think we had this conversation before, all try to be the best we can be...no one wants be a jerk...but people see others as being jerks but do you think the jerk thinks he's being a jerk? i guess what i'm trying to say is there are 2 sides to every story...we have insecurities and fear and ignorance to deal with..it's a messy messy world but we only have ourselves to blame when we know we can do better.