Was Judas Iscariot a historical figure?

[LuisDantas]

From an anthropological perspective, it seems to me that it is unavoidable to have a Judas-like character in a religious tale.

From a sociologica perspective, it is perhaps even more unavoidable.

So odds are that Judas is exactly as real as Jesus himself - whom I personally doubt to have existed in a literal sense.

 

[oldbadger]

It is hard to say. Other than some writings from the NT gospels, apocryphal and gnostic literature, we can't really be sure if Judas was real historical figure, since there are no collaborating physical evidences to support those writings.

I don't think we'll ever know.

Hi....!

OK..... true!
But.... I don't know that you exist..... no physical evidence. However, I've read your posts over some time, and feel that it is reasonable to believe that you exist.

Equally, the fact that Oral tradition held Judas's story long enough for it to be written in to the Gospels, and additional mentions, such as his father's name, cause me to believe that 'some part' of the Judas story is real, and that he did exist.

'How much truth' is difficult to guess at, though!

 

[oldbadger]

From an anthropological perspective, it seems to me that it is unavoidable to have a Judas-like character in a religious tale.

Hi Luis..... true, because 'Judas like' characters seem to get everywhere....!

From a sociologica perspective, it is perhaps even more unavoidable.

Yep.... ditto the above.....:yes:

So odds are that Judas is exactly as real as Jesus himself - whom I personally doubt to have existed in a literal sense.

Not being a christian, and doing all that I can to extract evangelical tradition from the Gospels, the more I read about HJ so the more I believe that he existed 'in the literal sense'.

But my 'literal sense' amounts to what is left after I have made personal decisions about what I want to accept and omit from the gospels. But....!!!!.... the more I read the bible reports, so the more that I realise that (IMO) many are true, but have been misinterpreted, or distorted, or added to, etc...

I reckon that most of the reports of miracles in MARK (that I have studied) are in fact true reports of actual incidents, but which have been 'built upon'.

I'm just about to study the miracle of the demons leaving a single possessed man,(on Yeshu's reported command), entering a herd of 2000 swine which then raced down into the Lake and were drowned. OK, so that's a tough one...

 

[Brickjectivity]

I think Jesus doesn't mistake Judas character. Jesus preaches to turn the other cheek, to be at peace with enemies. Here is an enemy a Zealot living with Jesus and watching him, probably spying on him in order to catch him in a crime and report his whereabouts. He steals from the treasury and eventually betrays Jesus. It is not an accident but a purposeful choice to choose an enemy to be one of the original twelve, and this is an important aspect of Jesus story and gospel.

 

[oldbadger]

I think Jesus doesn't mistake Judas character. Jesus preaches to turn the other cheek, to be at peace with enemies. Here is an enemy a Zealot living with Jesus and watching him, probably spying on him in order to catch him in a crime and report his whereabouts. He steals from the treasury and eventually betrays Jesus. It is not an accident but a purposeful choice to choose an enemy to be one of the original twelve, and this is an important aspect of Jesus story and gospel.

Hi Bricks!

Fair enough.

I'm reading through the (synoptic) gospels again, just now, as if I had never read them before. And so far I've only reached Mark 3. But I believe that I've perceived more in the last few weeks than in all past years.

However, I haven't reached anywhere near Judas yet. I'll try and keep an open mind on all of the gospel reports, and see where they take me.

Question: Do you accept the bible as absolutely correct and without error?

 

[Brickjectivity]

Question: Do you accept the bible as absolutely correct and without error?

I look at the NT as a puzzle with some pieces missing here and there. I don't think its a self-explanatory set of books. I believe that for better or worse its best to get to the real heart of what these books are saying. If they are absolutely correct and without error then let them prove it themselves. Gone are the days when I will give them the benefit of such a doubt.

I'm reading through the (synoptic) gospels again, just now, as if I had never read them before. And so far I've only reached Mark 3. But I believe that I've perceived more in the last few weeks than in all past years.

However, I haven't reached anywhere near Judas yet. I'll try and keep an open mind on all of the gospel reports, and see where they take me.

I'm impressed as usual. It is also very gracious of you to take my thoughts into consideration and let me know. Thanks!

 

[oldbadger]

I look at the NT as a puzzle with some pieces missing here and there. I don't think its a self-explanatory set of books. I believe that for better or worse its best to get to the real heart of what these books are saying. If they are absolutely correct and without error then let them prove it themselves. Gone are the days when I will give them the benefit of such a doubt.

That's where I am at with the Gospels....... looking at the whole as a kind of puzzle.........

The thing is, however and whatever a person 'finds' or decides about the NT books can only be a personal view and interpretation, and the trick is to be able to discuss and share these personal interpretations with each other without going to war, which of course is what has happened (on a slightly larger scale) for the last couple of thousands of years......

I'm impressed as usual. It is also very gracious of you to take my thoughts into consideration and let me know. Thanks!

Thanks to you for your kind words.

 

[Brickjectivity]

That's where I am at with the Gospels....... looking at the whole as a kind of puzzle.........

The thing is, however and whatever a person 'finds' or decides about the NT books can only be a personal view and interpretation, and the trick is to be able to discuss and share these personal interpretations with each other without going to war, which of course is what has happened (on a slightly larger scale) for the last couple of thousands of years......

Yes, but it is strange that enabling discussion and sharing seems like the purpose that the NT is written for. Take the human problem of violence and throw humanity at solving it, turning the problem upon itself. Symbolically flood the world and its violence with peace while keeping every creature peacefully afloat above it until at some point the world becomes a peaceful place. Find some way to preserve all the unique points of view yet prevent violence between them. I imagine that Judas who is a throat-cutting zealot is opposed to everything Jesus has to say about peace.

You mentioned you've been reading the synoptic gospels. Do you also remember the story of Noah's Ark in Genesis? It provides background to something Jesus says about peace.

In Matthew chapter 10 & also in Luke chapter 10 Jesus sends out the twelve apostles as his representatives, and they are to greet homes with 'Peace to this house' as they enter them. If the home is peace-promoting they let their peace rest upon that home, otherwise their peace returns to themselves, spoken as if their words are peace-doves. It is written as if their words are like the dove Noah sends out of his ark to find dry land. When you reach chapter 9 of Mark you will read Jesus words "Have salt among yourselves, and be at peace with each other." That entire chapter is about being at peace with those who are of a different persuasion from yourself. Everything from the vision of the three prophets to Jesus saying "Everything is possible for those who believe" to the parable of the little child. All of it is about being peace-promoting, which ought to be enough to make any zealot vomit.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

One of the main reasons that it is quite sure that Judas existed as it is an embarrassing story.

A valued friend turning on the protagonist of the story is exactly the type of thing the sheeple love to eat up. Why do you think it happens so often in Hollywood? Of course you'd want to include a betrayal by a friend in a story you're trying to sell to the ignorant masses. Schadenfreude is the best human emotion to exploit in order to make money.

 

[oldbadger]

Yes, but it is strange that enabling discussion and sharing seems like the purpose that the NT is written for. Take the human problem of violence and throw humanity at solving it, turning the problem upon itself. Symbolically flood the world and its violence with peace while keeping every creature peacefully afloat above it until at some point the world becomes a peaceful place. Find some way to preserve all the unique points of view yet prevent violence between them. I imagine that Judas who is a throat-cutting zealot is opposed to everything Jesus has to say about peace.

You mentioned you've been reading the synoptic gospels. Do you also remember the story of Noah's Ark in Genesis? It provides background to something Jesus says about peace.

In Matthew chapter 10 & also in Luke chapter 10 Jesus sends out the twelve apostles as his representatives, and they are to greet homes with 'Peace to this house' as they enter them. If the home is peace-promoting they let their peace rest upon that home, otherwise their peace returns to themselves, spoken as if their words are peace-doves. It is written as if their words are like the dove Noah sends out of his ark to find dry land. When you reach chapter 9 of Mark you will read Jesus words "Have salt among yourselves, and be at peace with each other." That entire chapter is about being at peace with those who are of a different persuasion from yourself. Everything from the vision of the three prophets to Jesus saying "Everything is possible for those who believe" to the parable of the little child. All of it is about being peace-promoting, which ought to be enough to make any zealot vomit.

Hello again....

Very interesting post........ No, I hadn't figured the words leaving the disciples as if doves, and either remaining with the peaceful or returning to rest again with the disciples.

Of course, the Zealots were originally knife-carrying assassins, were they not?
But that was some years before JtB and Yeshu? My point is, I think that JtB was zealous in that he wanted to rid the country of its hypocritical greedy semi-paganised herodian officials, priests, the whole upper class of semi-jews, and leave the Lord's land for the true people of the Lord, the working people, peasants, etc....

And to follow that, after his arrest Jesus was still out there, possibly with him or near him, and there is a possibility that his temptation was mainly about whether he should take up the challenge that JtB had had to let go of at his arrest, that of uniting the common people in one goal to bring the Lord's true values and rules back to that country....? I think Jesus had a very good life before, well known as a healer, exorcist and social spiritual guide, possibly to the point that he did not need to follow his trade any more. And then, whoosh, this enormous responsibility being thrust at him.

The idea of this man who loved to travel the villages of Galilee, well known and well received, looked after and given food and lodging for his natural gifts, and then suddenly, this much more heavy burden chucked at him.

Oh, I reckon his temptation was huge, definitely! Total freedom, to go where he pleased, as he pleased, stay with whom he pleased, friends everywhere, an easy life for a clever and capable healer, etc, and then...... John's disciples pushing this towards him.

The more I think about these people from the the haze of distant past, the more I feel attracted to them.

 

[oldbadger]

A valued friend turning on the protagonist of the story is exactly the type of thing the sheeple love to eat up.

Hi...... wow, the eye, all that illumination..... the secrecy...

I don't think so. We sheep like 'boy meets girl' stuff and they didn't focus on that, much. In fact there are scores of 'big money' scenes that beat the hell out of the Judas story.

Like fallingblood I reckon that Judas did exist, did hope for a victory, was disheartened, did feel that a new leader was needed, possibly himself(?), did resort to treachery, did kill himself or get killed soon after. The 30 pcs of silver is probably drivvle, trawled up from OT prophesy or whatever.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Hi...... wow, the eye, all that illumination..... the secrecy...

I don't think so. We sheep like 'boy meets girl' stuff and they didn't focus on that, much. In fact there are scores of 'big money' scenes that beat the hell out of the Judas story.

People love a good betrayal story just as much as a love story. "Et tu, Brute?"... Everyone that has ever read a book gets that reference. "I know it was you Fredo; you broke my heart". Do I need to say which movie that came from? The names of all the great traitors are held up right amongst those of the great heroes. People love to hear about someone else getting screwed over. If a profound, touching love story is on one channel, and the aftermath of a massive train crash is being covered on another channel, which channel do you think more people are going to watch?

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Hi...... wow, the eye, all that illumination..... the secrecy...

Off topic; that eye represents the exact opposite of secrecy.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Hello again....

Very interesting post........ No, I hadn't figured the words leaving the disciples as if doves, and either remaining with the peaceful or returning to rest again with the disciples.

Of course, the Zealots were originally knife-carrying assassins, were they not?
But that was some years before JtB and Yeshu? My point is, I think that JtB was zealous in that he wanted to rid the country of its hypocritical greedy semi-paganised herodian officials, priests, the whole upper class of semi-jews, and leave the Lord's land for the true people of the Lord, the working people, peasants, etc....

And to follow that, after his arrest Jesus was still out there, possibly with him or near him, and there is a possibility that his temptation was mainly about whether he should take up the challenge that JtB had had to let go of at his arrest, that of uniting the common people in one goal to bring the Lord's true values and rules back to that country....? I think Jesus had a very good life before, well known as a healer, exorcist and social spiritual guide, possibly to the point that he did not need to follow his trade any more. And then, whoosh, this enormous responsibility being thrust at him.

The idea of this man who loved to travel the villages of Galilee, well known and well received, looked after and given food and lodging for his natural gifts, and then suddenly, this much more heavy burden chucked at him.

Oh, I reckon his temptation was huge, definitely! Total freedom, to go where he pleased, as he pleased, stay with whom he pleased, friends everywhere, an easy life for a clever and capable healer, etc, and then...... John's disciples pushing this towards him.

The more I think about these people from the the haze of distant past, the more I feel attracted to them.

Work in progress! Oh yes the fame and temptation, forgot about that. Honestly if I had been Judas, I think that seeing Jesus walk on water and control weather would have convinced me to let him be. He must have been famous traveling around and healing people, and with their various backgrounds the disciples must of looked like Village People.

 

[oldbadger]

Work in progress! Oh yes the fame and temptation, forgot about that. Honestly if I had been Judas, I think that seeing Jesus walk on water and control weather would have convinced me to let him be. He must have been famous traveling around and healing people, and with their various backgrounds the disciples must of looked like Village People.

Hi Bricks.....
I'm not sure whether Judas was in that boat. Cephas, Andrew, James, John, Philip, young Mark, probably, but Judas... don't know. This walking on water......... the Aramaic (or was it Hebrew? for 'walk' can also mean wander, go, amble, swim and more...

Most of the academics totally dismiss Yeshu's early years in Egypt, but, I still have an open mind on that. Egyptians were very fast and strong swimmers, which makes sense if they needed to travel along the banks of the Nile, crossing the odd lagoon etc. 6000 year old stone carvings show Egyptians racing each other at freestyle crawl, with archers on the bank with drawn bows (to keep crocks away?). I think that Yeshu might have been a powerful fast swimmer, and he 'went out' to them in that boat. Galileans were afraid of the deeps and may not have been great swimmers.

A neighbour was a naval clearance diver (explosives disposal under water) and even in retirement he still sometimes swims out to the Thames forts (7 miles out) on his own.....just happy to be in the water, silly or not. (Naval clearance diving is close to suicide!). So distance for a natural swimmer is nothing.

How about.....Judas believed that Yeshu would succeed after John's arrest, and ran with him, but as he began to feel that Yeshu did not have the same agenda as him, he decided to 'give him up' so as to leave a space for another, maybe even himself?

I can't dismiss Judas at this time.

 

[oldbadger]

People love a good betrayal story just as much as a love story. "Et tu, Brute?"... Everyone that has ever read a book gets that reference. "I know it was you Fredo; you broke my heart". Do I need to say which movie that came from? The names of all the great traitors are held up right amongst those of the great heroes. People love to hear about someone else getting screwed over. If a profound, touching love story is on one channel, and the aftermath of a massive train crash is being covered on another channel, which channel do you think more people are going to watch?

............................

 

[oldbadger]

Off topic; that eye represents the exact opposite of secrecy.

.....................................

 

[nash8]

Off topic; that eye represents the exact opposite of secrecy.

You think so?

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

You think so?

I know so.

 

[ZooGirl02]

I definitely believe that Judas Iscariot was a historical figure. I believe that he was the one that betrayed Christ.