Was Muhammad a good man?

[Aquitaine]

Just like you have a right to express your opinion..I will always retain the right to openly reject your uninformed opinion..you are free to preach it to your kin/trailer mates.but will get caught out looking biased and childish..whatever happened to freedom of speech? But that freedom doesnt mean you disrespect the fundamentals of the belief behind a major world religion..The Christians allow Jesus to be mocked..the muslim are so strict in their covenant with God that they saw the roots off anything that will ultimatly lead to his religion being poisoned..a religion of Tawhid..please read the wiki page

I think what is of epic importance is that we bury the hatchet on all this useless hatred concerning all theologies and religion..hatred only breeds more hatred..I say F the past..lets build a better future..

I still stand firm in my statement that you donot really understand Islam if you are worried about these hadith..Islam is about one thing only..Monotheism..and I think you and everyone should learn to respect the fact that no one can force to change the condition of anothers heart...to each his own..lets not lose our morality in the process of proving eachother wrong..rather try to disregard the negatives and promote the positives that we find in each others distinct cultures and views..that is the only way forward..otherwise I see the world crumbling upon itself in a nuclear catastrophe in the next few thousand if not hundred years..I wish we still used swords

Geeez - all that just because I criticized Mohammad's marriage to Aisha?

 

[Monotheist 101]

Geeez - all that just because I criticized Mohammad's marriage to Aisha?

What was the motive behind criticizing him? what do you mean to accomplish? I can read between the lines..you haven't even tried to understand whats clearly written on them..

The Science and Understanding of today, will erase the Hatred and Superstition of yesterday, and forge the Compassion and Ethics of tomorrow.

The irony is your motives are quite the opposite..just adding it as a signature doesnt automatically prove you believe it..your actions and words point to the contrary..

Liberty is the right of every man to be honest, to think and to speak without hypocrisy. Jose Marti

 

[Aquitaine]

What was the motive behind criticizing him? what do you mean to accomplish? I can read between the lines..you haven't even tried to understand whats clearly written on them..

The irony is your motives are quite the opposite..just adding it as a signature doesnt automatically prove you believe it..your actions and words point to the contrary..

What were my motives? I entered a thread about whether Mohammad was a good man, and criticized him based off the fact that he married a 6/9 year old girl.

I was then suprised by the amount of Muslims posting "but it was the culture at the time" and basically defending it. So I asked if ya'll are comfortable with Child Marriage - so far no answers.

What's wrong with that?

 

[England my lionheart]

When looking into history one has to remove ones own social reference, when one is examining a other culture. Because its unfair to superimpose ones own prejudice upon a other culture, you have to recognize each culture has its own tradition and its own way of doing things and if you try to force upon them your own ideals and own principles and your own acceptability then what you end up doing is being unjust towards a other tradition.

Guess you read about the Copts in Egypt then.

So its important to recognize it was a normal occurrence in that time, there is no mentioning that people thought it was strange. 1433 years ago it was normal to marry at a very young age and a girl became women much faster. I am pretty sure most of the people here on the forum had grand-grand mothers who also married at a very young age now imagine this being 1400 years ago in a dessert were it was a normal practice am i going to judge your grand-grand fathers for marrying her?

That may be the case for another individual but we are talking about a Prophet,what they do sets a precedent,if he did something it must be ok for SOME Muslims to do the same.

From my understanding the Sunnah covers the A-Z of the life of millions of Sunni Muslims,from ablutions to Zakat,i know for a fact that there are Muslims who would not marry or have intercourse with a Child,i know for a fact that there are Muslims who would and do so today,the problem IMO are the hadith themselves,which ones are authentic and which are not is problematic,(i like reading them BTW),are not influencial to the unbeliever but in either case they are to Muslims.

 

[Monotheist 101]

Saudi Gazette -

this is a nice testimony for who really was hating the prophet and when he knew who's he, he repents and admits the truth

Thanks for sharing that

“I have heard so many negative stories about Islam, but I am not a person who follows opinions of others without doing my own research,” he said. “Therefore, I have actually started to deepen my knowledge of Islam out of curiosity.”Saudi Gazette -

 

[Monotheist 101]

That may be the case for another individual but we are talking about a Prophet,what they do sets a precedent,if he did something it must be ok for SOME Muslims to do the same.

From my understanding the Sunnah covers the A-Z of the life of millions of Sunni Muslims,from ablutions to Zakat,i know for a fact that there are Muslims who would not marry or have intercourse with a Child,i know for a fact that there are Muslims who would and do so today,the problem IMO are the hadith themselves,which ones are authentic and which are not is problematic,(i like reading them BTW),are not influencial to the unbeliever but in either case they are to Muslims.

I dont see whats so hard to wrap your head around..Just like there was no culture for or development of cars during the Prophets time it was equally unimaginable to consider marrying a young girl..pedophilia..if you look into pre-Islamic arab culture you will find that the girls were actually killed due to them being a strain on their families compared to boys(who can work etc) the same belief shared among many ancient pagan civilizations including the hindus..Marrying a girl young would infact be honoring her family by saying I am willing to look after her from this point on..I donot believe any of the 9 year old consumation BS.(what age does a girl start mensturating..6 or 9? little too early dont you think) .I reject most of the Hadith based on the conflict in sources..

The Prophet didnt teach us lessons on road etiquette and driving safely...just like he probably couldnt imagine the norms changing (which they didnt till the middle ages) concerning marrying girls who reach the age of puberty..

As I have stressed before Muhammad is considered an example to the Muslims..but it is acknowledged that only God is perfect and has no equal..Muhammad is only the messenger..He brought solutions to the problems of his time and spiritual lessons for billions of muslims till the end of time(not the terrorists, but the God fearing ones)..one of said solutions of his time was the laws regarding divorce of young girls to their husbands (again the cultural significance behind taking care or taking the burden off the girls family is crucial) the rules of which are stated in the Quran...but these were problems present in that society..already. you will also have to understand that the girls families would rather kill their daughters than take them back..the Quran asks the husbands in question to look after the girls till they have reached puberty (in other words suitable for marriage to another and thus looked after in a society which women were mistreated)

I donot believe girls should be married before they are atleast 18..if not more..nowadays kids grow up fast physically but their minds are polluted with so much garbage that it takes them well into their late 20s or later to start showing signs of maturity


These same arguments of him being a "Prophet" or spiritual leader can be used against any religious figure IMO..why didnt Jesus clearly state the age for marriage?

 

[1robin]

Monotheist 101

Much like the Japanese and Asians in general as of today. Sexual behavior is acceptable at the occurrence/passing of puberty and I actually know a few girls who have been married at "questionable" ages.
At the occurrence of the onset of puberty a "child" is no longer prepubescent and hence forth the definition of pedophile no longer applies. The technical term at hand is hebephilia. I may oppose sex in general but speaking on a purely biological and semi-ethnocultural level I do not find it appalling to have sexual relations at such an age. Although marriage is a whole other issue altogether and far more serious than two people performing coitus.

So Monotheist 101 I do accept the Islamic opinion(to an extant) on the acceptability of marriage and sexual behavior.

It is also not an argument that the greatest prophet of God was only as immoral as his contemporaries. The "greatest" speaks of exemplary not mundane and ordinary moral achievement. Christ was morally perfect, Muhammad was at best no morally worse than others of his time (and that is being generous).
I especially find it inconsistent that a man claimed to be a moral teacher and even sinless repeatedly gives in to sexual desires that even I have never allowed and then has revelations conveniently arrive to justify them and has his followers rationalize something most people in human history would consider so evil they would not have done so no matter what the time they lived in.

 

[Quagmire]

What does a more sinful man than I and most others have to offer to God for my sin? Nothing. No man with even a single sin may do anything to fix another’s sin. Christ was able to provide the perfect sacrifice (please note that even the animals sacrificed were to be perfect but even then they only pushed sin forward to Christ's death and never forgave anything). Muhammad does not have a single requirement to do anything about the sins of another, and you are the only Muslim I have ever heard say he could have. Muhammad died by being poisoned by a women from a tribe he had destroyed, not as a sinless offering selected by God before the Earth was even made.

And somehow, all of this gives you the right to play God. Interesting. :yes:

(And btw, you're hearing things)

When did Quagmire become a Muslim? Quaggy? :help:

Hell, if you listen to some of the people I've been debating with in here I'm a God-hating fundamentalist Muslim/Christian/Atheist/Satan worshiping Agnostic who's also a gay/bi-sexual/lesbian homophobe.

Don't sweat it, Paul. For a lot of people in here the whole idea of sticking up for a group that you aren't a member of (or even just being fair for it's own sake) just doesn't compute. There's no place in their brain to put the concept where it would even sort-of fit.

 

[Aquitaine]

I donot believe girls should be married before they are atleast 18..if not more..nowadays kids grow up fast physically but their minds are polluted with so much garbage that it takes them well into their late 20s or later to start showing signs of maturity

Thank you for finally answering my question, see - that wasn't so hard. :angel2:

 

[England my lionheart]

I dont see whats so hard to wrap your head around..Just like there was no culture for or development of cars during the Prophets time it was equally unimaginable to consider marrying a young girl..pedophilia..if you look into pre-Islamic arab culture you will find that the girls were actually killed due to them being a strain on their families compared to boys(who can work etc) the same belief shared among many ancient civilizations including the hindus..Marrying a girl young would infact be honoring her family by saying I am willing to look after her from this point on..I donot believe any of the 9 year old consumation BS.(what age does a girl start mensturating..6 or 9? little too early dont you think) .I reject most of the Hadith based on the conflict in sources..

Sahih Bukari,Muslim,do you reject those?

The Prophet didnt teach us lessons on road etiquette and driving safely...just like he probably couldnt imagine the norms changing (which they didnt till the middle ages) concerning marrying girls who reach the age of puberty..

He set a precedent in those ahadith though,unless of course a hadith that's called sahih isn't authentic at all,see what I mean by problematic.

As I have stressed before Muhammad is considered an example to the Muslims..but it is acknowledged that only God is perfect and has no equal..Muhammad is only the messenger..He brought solutions to the problems of his time and spiritual lessons for billions of muslims till the end of time(not the terrorists, but the God fearing ones)..one of said solutions of his time was the laws regarding divorce of young girls to their husbands (again the cultural significance behind taking care or taking the burden off the girls family is crucial) the rules of which are stated in the Quran...but these were problems present in that society..already. you will also have to understand that the girls families would rather kill their daughters than take them back..the Quran asks the husbands in question to look after the girls till they have reached puberty (in other words suitable for marriage to another and thus looked after in a society which women were mistreated)

I think you missed my point completely,ealier in the thread I ventured that one of the reasons for the marriage was that it forged a powerful alliance,Women were used in Europe for forging alliances between countries in the middle ages,and you could easily put forward such things as culture as an excuse but whats written in those hadith are a precedent or empowerment to do the same.

I do not believe girls should be married before they are atleast 18..if not more..nowadays kids grow up fast physically but their minds are polluted with so much garbage that it takes them well into their late 20s or later to start showing signs of maturity

These same arguments of him being a "Prophet" or spiritual leader can be used against any religious figure IMO..why didnt Jesus clearly state the age for marriage?

I don't recall that Jesus married a Child in the story,therefore no precedent was set.

 

[Monotheist 101]

I don't recall that Jesus married a Child in the story,therefore no precedent was set.

I used Jesus as an example..consider Krishna..or other figures in ancient world religions..you dont have to hold on to the exact words..geez

Sahih Bukari,Muslim,do you reject those?

Yes on the basis of them being used out of context or having the motives of the narrators attahed to them..I have seriously looked into the Sunni Shia split and its consequences on both how history was written and what sort of Islam was preached. You have to look into the civil wars after the death of the Prophet to try and picture what the alliances were like and who got the power(Umayyads,same tribe who were in power before Islam, altho clinging on to pure Monotheism which are a 80%(Sunni) who practically put the sunnah Hadith first before the Quran, IMO sticking to it too tightly) and then there was the Prophets family and their supporters, IMO I have not researched a more honorable man than Ali ibn Abi Talib in history, his refusal to concern himself with power struggles led to his ultimate demise, but as a consequence his followers IMO holding a belief in a sacred bloodline and divinity have strayed off or left it open for Tawhid and the fundamentals of Islam to be tampered with, thus getting Mystic offshoots like Sufis,Bahai,Ahmadi and alot of other Mahdi claimants) I think you cannot truly understand the hadith without looking at the context from ALL sources. And early muslim politics of few centuries after the prophet hints at how the Ummayads might have used the hadith to keep the masses in check..the beauty of the Quran and its authenticity is different you should try looking up an unbiased source..I am too tired to bother typing..

He set a precedent in those ahadith though,unless of course a hadith that's called sahih isn't authentic at all,see what I mean by problematic

.

According to popular belief he also set a precedent for killing dogs, a practice still followed in Saudi Arabia..where they shoot stray dogs without remorse.
If the Muslims would look at the context of the narration..the Rabies epidemic in Madinah and the shortage of eating vessels(I would imagine in 7th century arabia) and lack of cleaning detergents than the hadith about cleaning your vessel thoroughly fits in perfectly with the teachings of a Moral leader..nowhere in the Quran does it hint at any animal being dirty..The Pig is forbidden to eat, not raise or keep as a pet..extremism from both sides leads to people attaching more meaning to traditions than they need to. I refuse to believe the God that created my best friend Ringo (pictured ) would create an animal just to be hated on..another interesting fact about Abu Hurairah who is the narrator of ALL the anti dog hadith is that his name translates to "Father of the Cat" this is normal in arab culture till today...Muhammads father would be called Abu Muhammad...a stinky person will be called Abu Reeha (Father of the Scent )..so I choose not to too strictly follow the hadith bukhari or muslim..because it is inevitable that traditions will change over time.

I think you missed my point completely,ealier in the thread I ventured that one of the reasons for the marriage was that it forged a powerful alliance,Women were used in Europe for forging alliances between countries in the middle ages,and you could easily put forward such things as culture as an excuse but whats written in those hadith are a precedent or empowerment to do the same.

Again you need to understand the arab culture more deeply if you want to make an informed unbiased decision

 

[Sha'irullah]

It is also not an argument that the greatest prophet of God was only as immoral as his contemporaries.

Muhammad was the final prophet according to the Quran, it is not literally stated he is the greatest. He was a reformer of monotheism although his greatness can be debated.
Muhammad was far from immoral or else he would not have been accepted at all. Medina/Makkah yet alone Arabia is not the shining point for modern morality. There is no comparison.
Please give me minor opinions on his morality. And I can destroy all your statements with 4 words :yes:

The "greatest" speaks of exemplary not mundane and ordinary moral achievement. Christ was morally perfect, Muhammad was at best no morally worse than others of his time (and that is being generous).

The Christian view of Isa is deified so of course he is perfect and Muhammad was not perfect and I can assure you nor is Jesus, because both are human. Muhammad civilized Arabia and that is an achievement unto itself truly worthy of deification if you ask me. May have not been perfect but still worthy of some merit. Jesus was an European concept and was only valid to European morals so you will always view Jesus as morally acceptable. Jesus is constantly display as white in Christian imagery despite his obvious Semitic heritage.

I especially find it inconsistent that a man claimed to be a moral teacher and even sinless repeatedly gives in to sexual desires that even I have never allowed and then has revelations conveniently arrive to justify them and has his followers rationalize something most people in human history would consider so evil they would not have done so no matter what the time they lived in.

What are Muhammad's sexual perversions? He was a polygamist. Nothing is wrong with polygamy as I know more then one polygamous men and each with happily married with a beautiful set of wives. Polygamy is a moral practise as long as it is consensual and that applies to any monogamous marriage as well. Your prophets in the Bible were polygamous.
Muhammad married Aisha and had sex with her presumably when she was 9. Not uncommon in his era and acceptable even in early Judaic standards at that time. According to narration Aisha was of puberty when he consummated the marriage which again is morally acceptable.....to those people of course.
Mary was presumably 12-14 when she married Jesus. Is this not morally unacceptable for you?

 

[McBell]

LOL - how hard can it be to answer whether or not you support Child Marriage? I'm only asking...... jeeez.

Except it is not the marriage to six/nine year olds I asked about.
it is having sex with nine year olds I am asking about.

It is interesting how so many Muslims refuse to answer the question.
In fact, if they do not out right ignore the question, they change it to make it easier to answer.

 

[McBell]

*edit*

Interesting how you know so much about me and my intentions when you flat out state you do not read my posts...

 

[Monotheist 101]

Interesting how you know so much about me and my intentions when you flat out state you do not read my posts...

Where did I put the bug spray? :help:

 

[McBell]

Where did I put the bug spray? :help:

I understand now.

You dislike having competition.

 

[FearGod]

So as we believe in the Ahadith now then it will be a good start to know more about the prophet PBUH.

[youtube]kEzmKnELFrk[/youtube]
The Prophet


Who is Ayesha
[youtube]43kBB_seUk4[/youtube]
Great Women of Islam - Ayesha bint Abu Bakr - YouTube

 

[Sha'irullah]

So as we believe in the Ahadith now then it will be a good start to know more about the prophet PBUH.

[youtube]kEzmKnELFrk[/youtube]
The Prophet


Who is Ayesha
[youtube]43kBB_seUk4[/youtube]
Great Women of Islam - Ayesha bint Abu Bakr - YouTube

Are there not different theories as to Aisha's age? I cannot recall the specifics but I knew a brother at a masjid who denied her age as 6 for marriage and 9 for consummation. I do not remember the number he gave me but I believe it was around 11. I never dug into this so I never knew if this was just a individual claim or if it a following that asserted this claim.

 

[FearGod]

Are there not different theories as to Aisha's age? I cannot recall the specifics but I knew a brother at a masjid who denied her age as 6 for marriage and 9 for consummation. I do not remember the number he gave me but I believe it was around 11. I never dug into this so I never knew if this was just a individual claim or if it a following that asserted this claim.

Many evidences shows she was around 18 when she married but i think it was a propoganda against Islam to tell that Ayesha was playing with a doll "made in china" when she was married to the prophet,so even the hadith that mentioning a doll,then it was kind of mockery similar to what we can see of using the same fake ahadith nowadays.

[youtube]gGgVkgrjwrM[/youtube]
Aisha (ra) true age revealed - YouTube

 

[Sha'irullah]

Many evidences shows she was around 18 when she married but i think it was a propoganda against Islam to tell that Ayesha was playing with a doll "made in china" when she was married to the prophet,so even the hadith that mentioning a doll,then it was kind of mockery similar to what we can say of using the same fake ahadith nowadays.

I would have always imagined her as young as 12 honestly. Since puberty was the acceptable age for both marriage and sex in Bedouin, Arabic and Islamic tradition I would have placed her no younger than 12 or 17 perhaps. Very similar to Mariam.

I understand Edip Yuksel hatred for propagated hadiths although I do believe he can push the limits on occasion. But considering our short chats I think he is a respectable person still.

So do you reject certain hadith? I am not implying Qur'aniyun but simply revaluation of ahadith.