Was Muhammad a good man?

[Monotheist 101]

So do you reject certain hadith? I am not implying Qur'aniyun but simply revaluation of ahadith.

I think I fall into that category and every Muslim should consciously criticize the hadith, its authenticity is not guaranteed in our covenant with God.

 

[FearGod]

I would have always imagined her as young as 12 honestly. Since puberty was the acceptable age for both marriage and sex in Bedouin, Arabic and Islamic tradition I would have placed her no younger than 12 or 17 perhaps. Very similar to Mariam.

I understand Edip Yuksel hatred for propagated hadiths although I do believe he can push the limits on occasion. But considering our short chats I think he is a respectable person still.

So do you reject certain hadith? I am not implying Qur'aniyun but simply revaluation of ahadith.

Of course i do reject many ahadith and i can realize myself if its kind of propoganda against Islam .

 

[Monotheist 101]

Of course i do reject many ahadith and i can realize myself if its kind of propoganda against Islam .

But everyone should realize that there is propaganda within Islam as well to a certain extent..but the truth is it doesnt matter..this is the battle against the nafs/ego, the desires that rule us, the constant Jihad against the ego,IMO no one won this battle better than the 4th Caliph of Islam Ali ibn Abu Talib ..as long as we follow what Muhammad taught us about the True Creator the only True King of Men..The Lord of Mankind..I think we are on the Siraat al Mustaqeem...I dunno if I spelt it right tho..

I cant believe how everything about Islam agrees with my perception of who God should be.

 

[ron4711]

The poll is incomplete. There is no option for:
1 There was no Mohammad, the stories of him were made up a hundred years after his supposed existence

 

[FearGod]

But everyone should realize that there is propaganda within Islam as well to a certain extent..but the truth is it doesnt matter..this is the battle against the nafs/ego, the desires that rule us, the constant Jihad against the ego,IMO no one won this battle better than the 4th Caliph of Islam Ali ibn Abu Talib ..as long as we follow what Muhammad taught us about the True Creator the only True King of Men..The Lord of Mankind..I think we are on the Siraat al Mustaqeem...I dunno if I spelt it right tho..

I cant believe how everything about Islam agrees with my perception of who God should be.

Alhamdu llilah and God guides whom He pleases.

 

[Sha'irullah]

The poll is incomplete. There is no option for:
1 There was no Mohammad, the stories of him were made up a hundred years after his supposed existence

The existence of Muhammad is very credible although the same cannot be said for Jesus.
There is a story about Jesus's existence claiming his existence was credible but his following was very small and as far as we know the only followers he obtained is his disciples. His teaching were then spread and fabricated and solidified by Constantine's arrival and the Council of Nicea

But that is a whole other story and it is heavily accepted that Muhammad existence because his presence was not as mysterious as Isa

 

[Sha'irullah]

I think I fall into that category and every Muslim should consciously criticize the hadith, its authenticity is not guaranteed in our covenant with God.

You are beginning to sound like a Jew . Never heard a Muslim use the world covenant before

 

[FearGod]

You are beginning to sound like a Jew . Never heard a Muslim use the world covenant before

Covenant is in the quran

they who are true to their bond with God and never break their covenant; (13:20)

And purchase not a small gain at the price of Allah's covenant. Lo! that which Allah hath is better for you, if ye did but know. (16:95)

 

[Sha'irullah]

Covenant is in the quran

they who are true to their bond with God and never break their covenant; (13:20)

And purchase not a small gain at the price of Allah's covenant. Lo! that which Allah hath is better for you, if ye did but know. (16:95)

الْمِيثَاقَ or al-mith'aqha is how it is used in the Qur'anic ayat mentioned above. I thoroughly studied Surah 1-21 for exemplary tafsir before and I have never recalled the usage of covenant being applied to that verse. But then again it has been some years, my poor noggin is not as efficient it seems.
This is often translated as promise or contract usually but covenant implies a more spiritual connotation to the word which would be obvious considering the nature of the literature.

 

[Aquitaine]

So you guys are mostly Quran-only Muslims, and reject the Hadiths as fabrications?

 

[FearGod]

So you guys are mostly Quran-only Muslims, and reject the Hadiths as fabrications?

For me i am a muslim.

to make types for Islam is a misleading.

 

[McBell]

For me i am a muslim.

to make types for Islam is a misleading.

So why all the comments concerning Hadiths being legitimate or not?
Is that not "making types" for Islam?
And if not, how is it not?

 

[Aquitaine]

For me i am a muslim.

to make types for Islam is a misleading.

I see. So do you disagree with the distinction between say.... Shia and Sunni?

 

[F0uad]

So you guys are mostly Quran-only Muslims, and reject the Hadiths as fabrications?

Nope, i belief that certain hadiths to be true most of the Sunnis and Shias follow Hadith traditions that have solid authenticity.

 

[F0uad]

I think I fall into that category and every Muslim should consciously criticize the hadith, its authenticity is not guaranteed in our covenant with God.

The problem is that people back in those day did not have passports or register ones age, if you went to small villages in Morocco with no outside communication and you would ask a women her age she wouldn't know. It can be that the Hadith is authentic but the report it self is mistaken there are also other conflicting reports that you have to take in consideration.

 

[1robin]

The existence of Muhammad is very credible although the same cannot be said for Jesus.
There is a story about Jesus's existence claiming his existence was credible but his following was very small and as far as we know the only followers he obtained is his disciples. His teaching were then spread and fabricated and solidified by Constantine's arrival and the Council of Nicea

But that is a whole other story and it is heavily accepted that Muhammad existence because his presence was not as mysterious as Isa

I do believe Muhammad and Jesus existed but only Christ was from God. As for Christ's historicity: He is more textually attested than any other figure of ancient history. Not just prophecies and predictions in the OT, the entire NT, Jewish writings, but 40 plus extrabiblical authors refer to him or directly include him in their writings. Almost all NT scholars on both sides not only agree he is a historical figure but that he was tried by Rome, Crucified (despite Islams claims), and the tomb was found empty.

 

[Sha'irullah]

I see. So do you disagree with the distinction between say.... Shia and Sunni?

I would not dare consider Shia Muslims. Shi'ism is the blending of pre-Islamic Persian customs with Islam and it makes a convoluted mess of things. Shia claim that Ali is a divine being along with Muhammad which goes directly against al-Qur'an as disavows Muhammad's claim in Surah Al-Baqara ayat 23....

"وَإِن ڪُنتُمۡ فِى رَيۡبٍ۬ مِّمَّا نَزَّلۡنَا عَلَىٰ عَبۡدِنَا فَأۡتُواْ بِسُورَةٍ۬ مِّن مِّثۡلِهِۦ وَٱدۡعُواْ شُهَدَآءَكُم مِّن دُونِ ٱللَّهِ إِن كُنتُمۡ صَـٰدِقِينَ"

"And if ye are in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto our slave (Muhammad), then produce a surah of the like thereof, and call your witness beside Allah if ye are truthful."

Shia also curse Aisha during their prayers as a sick version of Tashahhud. They display intense hatred towards Muhammad's beloved wife which is as un-Muslim as one can be.

Getting back on topic though. There are numerous Sufi orders and Sunnis madhahib and each adheres to different teachings by emphasizing certain hadith and ritualistic customs which have no importance in Islam. They are just mind control mostly and the only difference placed between a Muslim should be Sunni and Sufi since Sufi is a mystical branch that teaching unnecessary acts but worthwhile nonetheless. Criticizing hadith should be a priority of all Muslims since ahadith are used to manipulate and control Muslims needlessly. There are valid hadith but I fear that a lot which has been used today is purely created dogma.

 

[Sha'irullah]

I do believe Muhammad and Jesus existed but only Christ was from God. As for Christ's historicity: He is more textually attested than any other figure of ancient history. Not just prophecies and predictions in the OT, the entire NT, Jewish writings, but 40 plus extrabiblical authors refer to him or directly include him in their writings. Almost all NT scholars on both sides not only agree he is a historical figure but that he was tried by Rome, Crucified (despite Islams claims), and the tomb was found empty.

Facts are incorrect since Roman records do not mention isa and these texts you speak of are only by the hands of Christians and were compiled much later and sometimes after/during the reign of Constantine. So you made a major historical blunder.

 

[1robin]

Muhammad was the final prophet according to the Quran, it is not literally stated he is the greatest. He was a reformer of monotheism although his greatness can be debated.

I am not sure what is officially claimed by the Quran but the idea that he is the greatest prophet is very common among Muslims. If you wish I can get the rationale behind that claim from another thread where a Muslim explained it.

Muhammad was far from immoral or else he would not have been accepted at all.

History does not agree. More than half the heroic tyrants of history were completely corrupt men even many false prophets that were followed unto even death. If Ghengis Kauhn, Hitler, Stalin, or even Vlad can be followed even Muhammad is eligible.

Medina/Makkah yet alone Arabia is not the shining point for modern morality. There is no comparison.

I agree but this sounds like an argument for my case no yours. What did I miss here?

Please give me minor opinions on his morality. And I can destroy all your statements with 4 words

That is one bizarre statement. Instead let me refer you to post #53. Please give me 4 words that will undue the assassinations and raids on caravans for loot. The examples are in color.

The Christian view of Isa is deified so of course he is perfect

That is not a view I chose because it pleased me it is the obvious conclusion of the historical narratives. The historical narrative for Muhammad could not possibly be more of the exact opposite. Nonstop mistakes and faults common to all men or far worse.

and Muhammad was not perfect and I can assure you nor is Jesus,

You have access to nothing that will allow the claim that Jesus was not perfect to be justified. All we have could be wrong but all the evidence that is available is the exact opposite.

because both are human.

Christ existed before the Earth did, Muhammad did not. Christ rose from the dead after being killed for our sins. Muhammad is still in the grave where he was laid after being poisoned by a member of a tribe he had attacked.

Muhammad civilized Arabia and that is an achievement unto itself truly worthy of deification if you ask me.

First that is a noteworthy act. Second if that was worthy of deification then there would be a thousand God's in history and that is also not monotheism. If uniting people is the judge then the Christian British Empire is the greatest and most deified force in history. Fortunately uniting people is common and not worthy of much beyond being noted by history. Half the time it was done by evil men.

May have not been perfect but still worthy of some merit.

I am sure Muhammad was not a total loss. I am sure he did many good things.

Jesus was an European concept and was only valid to European morals so you will always view Jesus as morally acceptable. Jesus is constantly display as white in Christian imagery despite his obvious Semitic heritage.

I do not believe in a picture hung in a casa in Spain or a chateau in France. I believe in a Jewish teacher that was raised from the dead and contained in an ANE oriental theology within the most studied and cherished book in human history. Europe has next to nothing to do with my faith. You are confusing Christ with manmade Churches and religion.

What are Muhammad's sexual perversions? He was a polygamist. Nothing is wrong with polygamy as I know more than one polygamous men and each with happily married with a beautiful set of wives. Polygamy is a moral practice as long as it is consensual and that applies to any monogamous marriage as well. Your prophets in the Bible were polygamous.

Most of the prophets in the Bible suffered greatly for their polygamy, many times by direct instigation from God. God at times tolerated polygamy he never promoted it and many times condemned it. God made one man and one women originally, he did not make Adam and 5 Eves.

Muhammad married Aisha and had sex with her presumably when she was 9. Not uncommon in his era and acceptable even in early Judaic standards at that time.

9 was very uncommon in Israel. 12 was very early there. I have not mentioned his marriages to any great extent at all. I am unsure why you are defending them. BTW any prophet who answers the question "Why did you marry and sleep with 9 year old girl?" with "well everyone else is doing it" is not going to be my prophet, and would not even survive if it was my daughter.

Mary was presumably 12-14 when she married Jesus. Is this not morally unacceptable for you?

Of course this is not acceptable, it is not coherent either. I think you meant she was 12-14 when she had Jesus. First 13 is not 9. Second how do you know this, Jewish culture does not list ages most of the time, the list stages. Third this is what God did not some smelly old man did. Fourth this was not sex, it was a spiritual event.

You use Islamic arguments, are you a Muslim it is hard to tell from your title.

 

[1robin]

And somehow, all of this gives you the right to play God. Interesting.

When I raise the dead and rewrite the Bible then this statement may apply. Until then it is white noise.

(And btw, you're hearing things)

What does this mean?

Hell, if you listen to some of the people I've been debating with in here I'm a God-hating fundamentalist Muslim/Christian/Atheist/Satan worshiping Agnostic who's also a gay/bi-sexual/lesbian homophobe.

That must keep you quite busy.