Was Muhammad a good man?

[1robin]

Here we go with the absurdities again. You are just confirming the fact you are a bigot . You not only have no proof but the proof points the other way around int his case.
But lets drop the race card shall we as we are straying off topic.

You will either lay off the sarcastic name calling crap or we are done. Especially since it does not apply to a member of an Indian tribe nor to the slightest thing I have said. It is you who are typing insults not me.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

You will either lay off the sarcastic name calling crap or we are done. Especially since it does not apply to a member of an Indian tribe nor to the slightest thing I have said. It is you who are typing insults not me.

How do you figure a Native American can't possibly be a bigot?

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

I believe it was 80% when I checked however it makes little difference as whatever the number is it is many times over what the percentage of the population is. I am sure profiling does occur though it takes place in the opposite direction so as to make it all but wash out. The point was the level of profiling it would take to produce what we see in incarcerations would be far far worse than what was true during our worst pre-civil rights days, and not what we have today which is almost negligible and would not surprise me if on the whole racism has swung back to the other side at this point. I have no affirmative action, there are non white congressional caucuses, there are no white FUBUs, there are no significant white web sites demanding we only use white businesses. Actually I am an Indian and would have more reason to yell foul than anyone but don't because it's all BS. I determine my actions.

Except that it's a nonsensical number and the percentage is nowhere near 80%... You're exaggerating the statistics to try and make profiling look like a ridiculous claim. Blacks are 39.4% of the prison population...

 

[Sha'irullah]

How do you figure a Native American can't possibly be a bigot?

Racial immunity. I am a biracial black person and I openly admit to not being capable of befriending or socializing with African Americans. Quite bizarre honestly.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Racial immunity. I am a biracial black person and I openly admit to not being capable of befriending or socializing with African Americans. Quite bizarre honestly.

There's no such thing as "racial immunity"... Anyone is capable of bigotry.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

One very specific problem I had with him was his "child wives". Its a very specific thing that bothers me that I feel I can defend. He had a child wife that explains in the Quran that he fondled (molested) at age 5 when they bathed. He took her virginity (rape) when she was only 9 years old. I do not care what your religion is or your time period this is wrong.

I could get over this fact if he was "just a man" but in the Quran says that Allah describes him as the "ideal man". That was sort of the last straw for me. There are several other things that he did but I don't feel I can aptly defend my position as I am not as well versed in Islam as I am in the workings of Judaism, Christianity and many forms of paganism. I honestly feel the need to really study the religion.

 

[Assad91]

One very specific problem I had with him was his "child wives". Its a very specific thing that bothers me that I feel I can defend. He had a child wife that explains in the Quran that he fondled (molested) at age 5 when they bathed. He took her virginity (rape) when she was only 9 years old. I do not care what your religion is or your time period this is wrong.

Can you please explain where in the Quran this was explained?

 

[Breathe]

He had a child wife that explains in the Quran that he fondled (molested) at age 5 when they bathed. He took her virginity (rape) when she was only 9 years old.

Can you please explain where in the Quran this was explained?

I can't be the only one who wonders if I'm reading a different Qur'an, can I?

opcorn:

 

[illykitty]

I can't be the only one who wonders if I'm reading a different Qur'an, can I?

opcorn:

Nope, never read this anywhere in the Quran... I think someone hasn't read it!

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Can you please explain where in the Quran this was explained?

Qur'an, Hadith and Scholars:Aisha - WikiIslam

Do you dispute any of this?

 

[Breathe]

Qur'an, Hadith and Scholars:Aisha - WikiIslam

Do you dispute any of this?

None of those are the Qur'an.
Btw, using WikiIslam. Lol. Seriously?

Why not check the BNP for facts about immigration while you're at it?

 

[Monk Of Reason]

None of those are the Qur'an.
Btw, using WikiIslam. Lol. Seriously?

Why not check the BNP for facts about immigration while you're at it?

I meant that Muhamid being called the "Ideal man" by Allah was in the Qu'ran. The rest is general historical information. But again my question is raised do you or do you not believe that he married a girl at the age of 6-7 and had sexual relations with her starting at age 9?

Edit: Wikislam is not where I get my information. That was just the first sourced information on a quick search to link to. There are dozens possibly hundreds of others. Many of which are Muslim run sites that share this information in attempts to advocate Islam.

 

[Breathe]

But again my question is raised do you or do you not believe that he married a girl at the age of 6-7 and had sexual relations with her starting at age 9?

The age of A'isha is hotly debated, with arguments usually presented that she was between 17 - 19; this relies upon the age of Asma' bint Abu Bakr, Aisha's sister.

Not only that, but Fatimah, Muhammad's daughter, was about five years older than her. Fatimah was born in 597 CE. The traditional date of Aisha is 612 CE... this isn't five years. Another view is 615 CE, and then that would mean that A'isha was older than her.

Additionally, Abu Bakr is one of the earliest Muslims, with probably just over 50 people converting before him. It makes sense that Abu Bakr had been a Muslim for some time before the Islam was preached to the general populace, because Abu Bakr was the one who gave the first public address for people to convert to Islam.

In addition, biographies mention that Asma and Aisha were both born before (the call of) Islam, and a specific hadith mentions that for as long has she has been able to remember, her parents have been Muslim. This means she was born a few years before they converted, but she was too young to remember it.

So no, I don't think Aisha was 6 when betrothed, or 9 when it was consummated.

 

[Assad91]

Qur'an, Hadith and Scholars:Aisha - WikiIslam

Do you dispute any of this?

I dispute Aisha, yes. I am glad to see Odion has tackled it too

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

I believe it was 80% when I checked however it makes little difference as whatever the number is it is many times over what the percentage of the population is. I am sure profiling does occur though it takes place in the opposite direction so as to make it all but wash out. The point was the level of profiling it would take to produce what we see in incarcerations would be far far worse than what was true during our worst pre-civil rights days, and not what we have today which is almost negligible and would not surprise me if on the whole racism has swung back to the other side at this point. I have no affirmative action, there are non white congressional caucuses, there are no white FUBUs, there are no significant white web sites demanding we only use white businesses. Actually I am an Indian and would have more reason to yell foul than anyone but don't because it's all BS. I determine my actions.

Marijuana arrests more likely for African Americans
Black Americans Ten Times More Likely to be Incarcerated For Drug Use Than Whites
Blacks Found to Be 3.3 Times More Likely to Be Arrested for Marijuana Possession Than Whites in Michigan, Despite Equal Usage Rates | American Civil Liberties Union
In Kentucky, Black People Found to Be Six Times More Likely to Be Arrested for Marijuana Possession Than White People, Despite Equal Usage Rates | American Civil Liberties Union
In Lousiana, Black People More Than Three Times Likely to Be Arrested for Marijuana Possession Than White People, Despite Equal Usage Rates | American Civil Liberties Union

 

[Xaseui]

hi Odion

Btw, using WikiIslam. Lol. Seriously?
Why not check the BNP for facts about immigration while you're at it?

You expect to find information like that on a Muslim site? If a politician has done a lot of bad things and was/is involved in crime, guess what? You wont find any information about that on his website. You will get the information from other sources and verify they are not making it up before you can use that information.
So that site lists facts and gives all the references. Get counter facts and references if you can.

None of those are the Qur'an.

See:

"The Qur'an does not say Muhammad married Aisha when she was 6 and had sex with her when she was 9"

The Qur'an is not a biography of Muhammad. By name, he is only mentioned 4 times in the Qur'an. The Qur'an is not a historical narrative and without the Hadiths and Sirat (which are accepted by the majority of the world's Muslims and Islamic scholars) there would be no Five Pillars, Islam as Muslims know it would be unrecognizable, and there would be little to no historical evidence that a person known as Prophet Muhammad ever existed. Therefore they cannot be ignored. Furthermore, the Qur'an itself permits pedophilia in verse 65:4.

From: wikiislam.net/wiki/Responses_to_Apologetics:_Muhammad_and_Aisha#The_Qur.27an_does_not_say_Muhammad_married_Aisha_when_she_was_6_and_had_sex_with_her_when_she_was_9
(wont let me post links yet)

So the summary of the above quote is that Hadith are important in Islam (especially when multiple Sahih Hadith which say the exact thing).

So no, I don't think Aisha was 6 when betrothed, or 9 when it was consummated.

See:

"Some Islamic sources say Aisha was aged 12, 14, 15, 17, 18 and 21 when Muhammad had sex with her"

All authentic sources of Aisha’s own testimony confirm she was aged nine at the time. These alternate ages have been derived from misquotations, indirect sources, fuzzy dating techniques, and slander, in an attempt to cast doubt upon facts which have been unquestionably accepted by Muslims for almost 1,500 years.
Even today, the vast majority of the world's Muslims acknowledge and accept Aisha's young age and many of these honest Muslims take offense to these lies propagated by western Muslim apologists who are embarrassed by their own prophet's actions. In fact, Islamic scholar and teacher of Fiqh at Sunnipath.com and Livingislam.org, Shaykh Gibril Fouad Haddad's work has been referenced in our refutation to all these claims, which you can read here.

Source: wikiislam.net/wiki/Responses_to_Apologetics:_Muhammad_and_Aisha#Some_Islamic_sources_say_Aisha_was_aged_12.2C_14.2C_15.2C_17.2C_18_and_21_when_Muhammad_had_sex_with_her

So the problem is that the fact Aisha was 6/9 when engaged/married to 51/54 year old Muhammad, is mentioned multiple times in multiple Sahih hadiths.
The other ages 17, 19, whatever - those are not mentioned directly in hadiths and they are derivations and calculations as the quote says and that weak indirect information cannot compare to multiple mentions of Sahih hadiths, the link to which was provided by Monk Of Reason.

So that did happen and you have no historical evidence to counter-act the massive historical evidence that directly reports her age as 6 and 9 when engaged/married.
Also scholars agree on those ages so your personal opinion has no weight in comparison to multiple Sahih hadiths and Islamic scholars. I understand this is an embarrassing (or difficult to defend) issue about Islam.

In addition Quran 65:4 permits pedophilia - marriage with girls who havent reached puberty: wikiislam.net/wiki/Pedophilia_in_the_Qur%27an
When you read this page, be sure to read multiple translations, Tafsirs and sayings of Islamic scholars before giving your personal opinion that has once again, little weight in comparison to that evidence and therefore cannot contradict what they are saying.

Thank you.

 

[YmirGF]

The age of A'isha is hotly debated, with arguments usually presented that she was between 17 - 19; this relies upon the age of Asma' bint Abu Bakr, Aisha's sister.

Not only that, but Fatimah, Muhammad's daughter, was about five years older than her. Fatimah was born in 597 CE. The traditional date of Aisha is 612 CE... this isn't five years. Another view is 615 CE, and then that would mean that A'isha was older than her.

Additionally, Abu Bakr is one of the earliest Muslims, with probably just over 50 people converting before him. It makes sense that Abu Bakr had been a Muslim for some time before the Islam was preached to the general populace, because Abu Bakr was the one who gave the first public address for people to convert to Islam.

In addition, biographies mention that Asma and Aisha were both born before (the call of) Islam, and a specific hadith mentions that for as long has she has been able to remember, her parents have been Muslim. This means she was born a few years before they converted, but she was too young to remember it.

So no, I don't think Aisha was 6 when betrothed, or 9 when it was consummated.

That's all very well, Odion, however we still have many, many Muslims who believe the 6/9 interpretation and see no problem with old men having sex with what we would term "under-age" girls. It is a problem in several Muslim countries to this day.

 

[Breathe]

That's all very well, Odion, however we still have many, many Muslims who believe the 6/9 interpretation and see no problem with old men having sex with what we would term "under-age" girls. It is a problem in several Muslim countries to this day.

I couldn't agree more. I hope to see an end to it within my lifetime, but I can't say I'm optimistic about the likelihood of that happening. :/

 

[YmirGF]

I couldn't agree more. I hope to see an end to it within my lifetime, but I can't say I'm optimistic about the likelihood of that happening. :/

Agreed. Another uncomfortable reality for the "older Aisha camp" is that these discussions and debates are a relatively recent phenomena. Over the centuries, Muslim authors saw no reason to question the numbers given. It is only in light of modern sensitivities about sex with children that Muslim "scholars" have begun the psychological gymnastics to make her much older.


Things that make one go, "Hmmmm..."

 

[Assad91]

The truth is that when you study the Sunni books of history and hadith, you find that there is no conclusive or clear proof or evidence that she was 6 or 9 when she got married; on the contrary, a range of possible ages is offered when you actually go beyond the myths, gossip and hearsay and actually examine the history. Here are ten reasons to reject the myth of the marriage to a 6 year old.

1. Several books of hadith report that Aisha was married to the Prophet at age 6 and her marriage was not consumated until age 9. Most of quotes on this have come from one man, Hashim bin Urwah, who was the last narrator of this chain. However, he did not narrate this information when he was a famous teacher in Madina, but only after he moved to Iraq in his seventies. By that stage, even his own student, Malik ibn Anas had said that his narrations should be rejected as unreliable and suspect.
2. According to hadith in Sahih Bukhari and Muslim, Aisha is said to have joined Muhammad on the raid that culminated in the Battle of Badr, in 624 CE. However, because no one below the age of fifteen was allowed to accompany raiding parties, Aisha should have been at least fifteen in 624 CE and thus at least thirteen when she was married following the Hijra in 622 CE.
3. Ibn Hisham’s commentary on Ibn Ishaq’s Sirat Rashul Allah, the earliest surviving biography of Muhammad, records Aisha as having converted to Islam before Umar ibn al-Khattab, during the first few years of Islam around 610 CE. In order to accept Islam she must have been walking and talking, hence at least three years of age, which would make her at least fifteen in 622 CE.
4. Tabari reports that Abu Bakr wished to spare Aisha the discomforts of a journey to Ethiopia soon after 615 CE, and tried to bring forward her marriage to Mut`am’s son. Mut`am refused because Abu Bakr had converted to Islam, but if Aisha was already of marriageable age in 615 CE, she must have been way older than nine in 622 CE.
5. Tabari also reports that Abu Bakr’s four children were all born during the Jahiliyyah, the pre Islamic period, which could be said to have ended in 610 CE, making Aisha at least twelve in 622 CE.
6. According to Ibn Hajar, Fatima was five years older than Aisha. Fatima is reported to have been born when Muhammad was thirty-five years old, meaning Aisha was born when he was forty years old, and thus twelve when Muhammad married at fifty-two.
7. According to the generally accepted tradition, Aisha was born about eight years before Hijrah. However, according to another narrative in Bukhari (Kitaab al-Tafseer) Aisha is reported to have said that at the time Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Qur’an , was revealed, “I was a young girl, a jariya”. The 54th Surah of the Qur’an was revealed nine years before Hijrah. According to this tradition, Aisha had not only been born before the revelation of the referred Surah, but was actually a young girl, not even only an infant at that time. So if this age, of jariya, is assumed to be 7 to 14 years then her age at the time of marriage would be 14 to 21.
8. A famous Sunni imam, Ahmad ibn Hanbal, reports in his Musnad, that after the death of Khadijah, "Khaulah came to the Holy Prophet and advised him to marry again. She had two propositions for the Prophet: Either Muhammad could marry a virgin (bikr), or he could go for woman who had already been married (thayyib)". Khaulah named Aisha for a virgin (bikr). It is common knowledge that the term bikr in the Arabic language refers to a well formed lady and not to a 9 year old, playful, immature girl. If she were nine, the word used by Khaulah would have been jariyah and not bikr.
9. According to many Ahadith in Bukhari, it is believed Aisha participated in the battle of Badr and Uhud. Also in Bukhari (Kitabu’l-maghazi) Ibn `Umar states that the "Prophet did not permit me to participate in Uhud, as at that time, I was 14 years old." But on the day of Khandaq, when I was 15 years old, the Prophet permitted my participation. So if it was not allowed to participate in Uhud for people younger than 15, then Aisha would be at least 15 in those battles, making her age at least 13 to 14 at the time of marriage.
10. According to almost all the historians, Asma the elder sister of Aisha, was ten years older than Aisha. It is reported that Asma died in the 73rd year after migration of Muhammad when she was 100 years old. Now, obviously if Asma was 100 years old in the 73rd year after Migration to Medina, she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of migration. If Asma was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Aisha should have been 17 or 18 years old at that time. Thus, Aisha – if she got married in the first or second year after the Hijrah, as is commonly reported – was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage.

So in conclusion, we are doing our Holy Prophet a great disservice. We should be defending the honour, character and reputation of our Holy Prophet and reject these claims that he married a 6 year old child, whether they appear in non-Muslim or Muslim books. The evidence is just not there


The Truth About Shias: Myths about the Holy Prophet - Part 2: Marriage to Bibi Aisha