Was Muhammad a good man?

[Breathe]

You expect to find information like that on a Muslim site?

I've seen one or two hardliner group's websites. So... yeah. :cover:

Get counter facts and references if you can.

I did...

So the summary of the above quote is that Hadith are important in Islam (especially when multiple Sahih Hadith which say the exact thing).

Already explained in previous post above.

Also scholars agree on those ages so your personal opinion has no weight in comparison to multiple Sahih hadiths and Islamic scholars.

Scholars are fallible, though; this is why fatwas are usually signed with "والله اعلم", "And God knows best". Scholars are not infallible and can make mistakes.

In addition Quran 65:4 permits pedophilia - marriage with girls who havent reached puberty: wikiislam.net/wiki/Pedophilia_in_the_Qur%27an

A nice try, but not necessarily true. My sister-in-law's friend is around 20 (I think, she might be older) and hasn't (hadn't?) had a period at the time.

Absent periods - NHS Choices
Absence of Periods (Amenorrhea): Causes
Miracle Babies: Chapter 13 Finding Out Why You Have Never Had a Period

In addition, the Surah is about divorce, which is obvious in the name of "الطلاق‎" (at-Talaq ("the talaq")). One can go for divorce before someone's period is due. Another take on it that I have seen is that it speaks of a woman who has irregular periods.

If one were to marry a woman, and then divorce her within a week, it's fair to say she has not yet had a period during their marriage.

And the very fact that some scholars use this passage to support child marriage makes me sick to my stomach. >_>

 

[Breathe]

Agreed. Another uncomfortable reality for the "older Aisha camp" is that these discussions and debates are a relatively recent phenomena. Over the centuries, Muslim authors saw no reason to question the numbers given. It is only in light of modern sensitivities about sex with children that Muslim "scholars" have begun the psychological gymnastics to make her much older.


Things that make one go, "Hmmmm..."

True of course, but historical biographers and commentators are the ones from whom the older Aisha camp bases a sizeable chunk of their validity of interpretation.

I, for one, find the gymnastics of making Aisha much older a very welcome thing. The less child marriage, the better.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Was Muhammad a good man?

By the lights of his own religion, he might be seen as Good.
as he seems to have followed his own laws and instructions.

However by the standards of any other religion or by God, he might be judged differently, as would his followers.

I did not vote..............

 

[ignition]

That's all very well, Odion, however we still have many, many Muslims who believe the 6/9 interpretation and see no problem with old men having sex with what we would term "under-age" girls. It is a problem in several Muslim countries to this day.

The 6/9 interpretation is not up for debate and it has absolutely nothing to do with child marriages today. There are parts of the Sharia that is subject to culture and time and place. The age of marriage falls under this, there is no set age in either the Qur'an or the hadith because it is up to societies to decide. I'll tell you something else Muhammad did, he fought battles with a sword and a shield. Do you see Muslim armies fighting with such weapons today? No. Not everything Muhammad did automatically translates as a recommendation or an obligation.

 

[Assad91]

The 6/9 interpretation is not up for debate and it has absolutely nothing to do with child marriages today. There are parts of the Sharia that is subject to culture and time and place. The age of marriage falls under this, there is no set age in either the Qur'an or the hadith because it is up to societies to decide. I'll tell you something else Muhammad did, he fought battles with a sword and a shield. Do you see Muslim armies fighting with such weapons today? No. Not everything Muhammad did automatically translates as a recommendation or an obligation.

It is up for debate. Either the man who all of a sudden remembered this hadith out of the blue lied, or Aisha lied.

How is it believable a Prophet would marry a 6 year old? Would end up scaring little children? Sunni hadiths have some horrible tales.

 

[YmirGF]

The 6/9 interpretation is not up for debate and it has absolutely nothing to do with child marriages today. There are parts of the Sharia that is subject to culture and time and place. The age of marriage falls under this, there is no set age in either the Qur'an or the hadith because it is up to societies to decide. I'll tell you something else Muhammad did, he fought battles with a sword and a shield. Do you see Muslim armies fighting with such weapons today? No. Not everything Muhammad did automatically translates as a recommendation or an obligation.

Heh. Tell that to your fellow Muslims. :flirt:

 

[ignition]

Heh. Tell that to your fellow Muslims. :flirt:

Eh no. You stated that the 6/9 interpretation is a "problem". That is not true.

 

[Assad91]

Eh no. You stated that the 6/9 interpretation is a "problem". That is not true.

Should be a problem if you're not a pedophile

 

[ignition]

Should be a problem if you're not a pedophile

I could respond in kind, but I'm going to let the mods deal with this one.

 

[Xaseui]

I've seen one or two hardliner group's websites. So... yeah. :cover:

So you cant say to anyone "You cant use WikiIslam". As I said, you wont find information critical of Islam on Muslim websites. If the website cites its sources and they are valid sources, its a valid source.

Scholars are fallible, though; this is why fatwas are usually signed with "والله اعلم", "And God knows best". Scholars are not infallible and can make mistakes.

When multiple Sahih hadiths, and multiple Islamic Scholars are saying the same thing (that she was 6 and 9 when married), your opinion as a civilian on an internet forum has no weight when it contradicts what they are saying. You too are fallible and in this case, more fallible than them since you are not an Islamic scholar and you are not a well-known translator of Quran and Hadith or a Hadith historian like Bukhari.

A nice try, but not necessarily true. My sister-in-law's friend is around 20 (I think, she might be older) and hasn't (hadn't?) had a period at the time.

You cant think that is a valid respond to multiple translations and Islamic scholars saying a certain thing (that 65:4 is talking about girls who have never had a period).
Your other points are dealt with in the article about 65:4 I posted.
I could start talking about my personal relatives and quote them saying Islam is false.

And the very fact that some scholars use this passage to support child marriage makes me sick to my stomach. >_>

So you do agree that marriage to a 6/9 year old girl is a child marriage. You agree that its a bad thing. That is all good.
The only thing left for you is: Did it happen?

And as I explained, yes it did. Its mentioned in multiple Sahih Hadith and confirmed by Islamic scholars. The older age viewpoint is only derived from deductions and fuzzy logic.

I'll explain simpler terms.

Argument A: Planet X is round in shape. There is tonnes of direct evidence and the opinions of scientists that say the same thing.
Argument B: Planet X is cuboid/square in shape. We reject the direct evidence and opinions of scientists and we make our own deductions.

Which argument holds more weight, A or B? Do you think B does? Really?

You can close your eyes to multiple Sahih hadiths and Islamic scholars saying the same thing. That is up to you but the evidence is all there for an unbiased person. You belong to the Muslim faith so you're resistant to criticism of Islam and are not able to look at Islam objectively no matter what the evidence says.

 

[illykitty]

You can close your eyes to multiple Sahih hadiths and Islamic scholars saying the same thing. That is up to you but the evidence is all there for an unbiased person. You belong to the Muslim faith so you're resistant to criticism of Islam and are not able to look at Islam objectively no matter what the evidence says.

Many Hadiths say the contrary too. Did you read his post at all? Maybe people just want it to be like this to make Islam look bad. :ignore:

Also, some people actually use common sense and do their own research and form their own opinion. In the Quran it is mentioned over and over that Allah has given us intellect and to gain knowledge. Over-relying on scholars isn't going to accomplish this at all. Plus, they might be biased in one way or another.

 

[Breathe]

So you cant say to anyone "You cant use WikiIslam".

I didn't say "You can't use WikiIslam". Stop trying to play the martyr.

If the website cites its sources and they are valid sources, its a valid source.

So I can go to racist websites for valid opinions on immigration? Kool, thanks bro.

I could start talking about my personal relatives and quote them saying Islam is false.

You belong to the Muslim faith so you're resistant to criticism of Islam and are not able to look at Islam objectively no matter what the evidence says.

Okay, thanks for deciding what I'm able to do and my personality. You have no clue what you're talking about.

Then again, that doesn't stop some people.

The rest of your post is a baseless personal attack, ignorant, and a waste of bandwidth as you're just saying "hurr durr you can't make your own decisions or have an opinion or think critically". Yes, I can. Deal with it.

I gave my view, as did another member who also stated they do not believe that the age of Aisha is as young as believed.

I'm not going to waste my time on someone who isn't open to alternative views because they don't fit into your pidgeonhole.

Either accept it as a valid opinion even if you disagree with it, or reject it and keep the hell away from me in future.

 

[Breathe]

Many Hadiths say the contrary too. Did you read his post at all? Maybe people just want it to be like this to make Islam look bad. :ignore:

Also, some people actually use common sense and do their own research and form their own opinion. In the Quran it is mentioned over and over that Allah has given us intellect and to gain knowledge. Over-relying on scholars isn't going to accomplish this at all. Plus, they might be biased in one way or another.

It can't be accepted, simply because then they have nothing to hate on. Facts of an anti-religious individual are like the facts of a creationist.

 

[YmirGF]

Many Hadiths say the contrary too. Did you read his post at all?

Precisely. If anyone actually bothered studying the whole age controversy they would quickly see that there is so much written, from so many different angles, that it isn't possible to arrive at a reasonable conclusion.

Maybe people just want it to be like this to make Islam look bad. :ignore:

Again, I tend to agree. Frankly, there are far juicier things in Islam that can be merrily ripped to shreds, but sadly, this story over Aisha isn't one of them. It's not like non-Muslims didn't marry very young ... *ahem*... "women" ...*cough*... until all too recently.

Also, some people actually use common sense and do their own research and form their own opinion.

That is something I cottoned onto some time ago. First, anything one can see in Islam has already been discussed, every way to Sunday, by Muslim "scholars" over centuries of time. Secondly, no matter what opinion you come down on, the opposing side of the discussion can trot out a myriad of "scholars" who support their thinking. It's really terribly amusing.

In the Quran it is mentioned over and over that Allah has given us intellect and to gain knowledge. Over-relying on scholars isn't going to accomplish this at all. Plus, they might be biased in one way or another.

Agreed, but "scholars" have considerable entertainment value.

 

[Galen.Iksnudnard]

None of those are the Qur'an.
Btw, using WikiIslam. Lol. Seriously?

Why not check the BNP for facts about immigration while you're at it?

The premise of WikiIslam is critical analysis of the Quran, Hadiths and the Muslim Religion. There is nothing inherently hateful about that site, even if it makes Muslims feel uncomfortable.

The BNP website is set up for one reason and that is to foster hatred against immigrants.

In my opinion they are two different things. One is criticizing a religion, which you DO have control over. The second one is demonizing and slandering entire groups of people because of where they happened to be born, which those people DO NOT have control over.

 

[Breathe]

The premise of WikiIslam is critical analysis of the Quran, Hadiths and the Muslim Religion. There is nothing inherently hateful about that site, even if it makes Muslims feel uncomfortable.

Uh, yeah it is. It deliberately relies on distortions, misinterpretation, and more to further its goal.

There's a reason it's not seen as a good source of scholarship by most, including non-Muslims.

The BNP website is set up for one reason and that is to foster hatred against immigrants.

And some people think BNP is merely critical of immigration and telling the truth, even if it makes some people uncomfortable.

In my opinion they are two different things. One is criticizing a religion, which you DO have control over. The second one is demonizing and slandering entire groups of people because of where they happened to be born, which those people DO NOT have control over.

Bigotry is bigotry.

For some, you can't choose not to belong to a religion, because that religion is, in their opinion, the truth. So choosing religion is to some little different than 'choosing' a sexuality: it can't be done. Some people just wish this was the case because it makes them feel snug in their bigotry.

 

[Xaseui]

I didn't say "You can't use WikiIslam". Stop trying to play the martyr.

Thats what you said here. Am I right?

None of those are the Qur'an.
Btw, using WikiIslam. Lol. Seriously?

Why not check the BNP for facts about immigration while you're at it?

So I can go to racist websites for valid opinions on immigration? Kool, thanks bro.

If a "racist immigration" website cites its sources as saying 90% of crimes are committed by immigrants, that is information to consider if the sources are valid (that has to be investigated).
So you can use the sources which are being cited.
In the case of WikiIslam, its not a "Racist" website. Islam is not a race, its a religion.
Second, you cannot find the things found on WikiIslam on a Muslim website. Therefore WikiIslam is a valid source of information for criticism of Islam. If you disagree, please provide some other sources.

There's a reason it's not seen as a good source of scholarship by most, including non-Muslims.

This page proves that this site is one of the best sites for criticism of Islam:
What People Say About WikiIslam:
wikiislam.net/wiki/What_People_Say_About_WikiIslam

Here's some quotes from that page:
- For anyone interested, or even curious, about Islam, it is absolutely indispensible.
- Well laid-out site - if you have a spare 10-15 minutes to learn about Islam, this is the site to visit.
- Best website to learn about Islam

Here's a few comments from Muslims:
- I usually wouldn't endorse a site like this, but in this case all of the sources were referenced in great detail.
- ...a frighteningly articulate wiki...
- ... most of the information is well referenced to reputable Islamic websites. Am kind of confused about it. I mean, I've not seen like blatant false verses or hadith on there.

The sources for all of those quotes are given and you can find them on the internet. Can we expect Muslims to love any website that is critical of Islam? Of course not. Can it be used as a valid source of information in a debate? Yes.
So once again, can you recommend any websites for criticism of Islam? I dont think you can but go ahead and try.

Image for "No one cares"

My point was the same. No one cares if one of your relatives did or did not get periods until they were 20 years old. Things like that are not relevant to the argument.

I gave my view, as did another member who also stated they do not believe that the age of Aisha is as young as believed.

Oh sure, you can believe what you want to believe. People believe in Scientology and witchcraft and lots of other things for which there's no evidence.
You can continue believing Aisha was not 6 and 9 and ignore and reject the mountain of evidence from Sahih hadiths. Many muslims accept the 6/9 thing and your argument is with them also.

Either accept it as a valid opinion even if you disagree with it, or reject it and keep the hell away from me in future.

That's some pretty strong language for a member of the Staff for this forum.

I'm free to respond to anything I like as long as I do it in a civil manner and I'm sure you can do the same.

Bigotry is bigotry.

For real bigotry, see this page: Qur'an, Hadith and Scholarseople of the Book
wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_Hadith_and_Scholarseople_of_the_Book

Again this page simply quotes Islamic sources e.g.:

- And ye know of those of you who broke the Sabbath, how We said unto them: Be ye apes, despised and hated!
Qur'an2:65
- Some Muslims remained friends with the Jews, so Allah sent down a Qur'an forbidding them to take Jews as friends. From their mouths hatred has already shown itself and what they conceal is worse
Ibn Ishaq p.262
- [The] Qur’an describes the Jews with their own particular degenerate characteristics, i.e. killing the prophets of Allah, corrupting His words by putting them in the wrong places, consuming the people’s wealth frivolously, refusal to distance themselves from the evil they do, and other ugly characteristics caused by their deep-rooted lasciviousness…only a minority of the Jews keep their word….[A]ll Jews are not the same. The good ones become Muslims, the bad ones do not. (Qur’an 3:113)
Muhammad Sayyid Tantawi, Banu Isra’il fi al-Qur’an wa al-Sunna

There are lots of other quotes on that page that show that Islam has a lot of bigotry for non-Muslims. Lets not forget Quran 48:13 which says non-Muslims will burn in Hell.

You dont think that's bigotry? From Wikipedia:

Bigotry is the state of mind of a bigot: someone who, as a result of their prejudices, treats other people with hatred, contempt, or intolerance on the basis of a person's ethnicity, religion, national origin, gender, sexual orientation, disability, socioeconomic status, or other characteristics.

If someone says a certain religion has bigotry in it and hatred and intolerance for other religions, we cant say that person is a bigot himself.

For sexual orientation, Islam has a lot of intolerance for gay people. For gender, we know Quran 4:34 asks a man to beat his wife and there are so many Quranic verses and Hadiths about the hatred of women for example saying that Women are deficient in intelligence. They can all be found on various websites and the references are there.
For religion, Islam has the greatest amount of hatred for non-believers as compared to other religions. I quoted 48:13 as one example. "Other religions do it too" is not a valid argument.

Thank you.

 

[Sha'irullah]

One very specific problem I had with him was his "child wives". Its a very specific thing that bothers me that I feel I can defend. He had a child wife that explains in the Quran that he fondled (molested) at age 5 when they bathed. He took her virginity (rape) when she was only 9 years old. I do not care what your religion is or your time period this is wrong.

I could get over this fact if he was "just a man" but in the Quran says that Allah describes him as the "ideal man". That was sort of the last straw for me. There are several other things that he did but I don't feel I can aptly defend my position as I am not as well versed in Islam as I am in the workings of Judaism, Christianity and many forms of paganism. I honestly feel the need to really study the religion.

lol none of this garbage is written int he Qur'an seriously dude read up and be smarter :biglaugh:

 

[Poeticus]

lol none of this garbage is written int he Qur'an seriously dude read up and be smarter :biglaugh:

Namaste,

What if it is, Sterling-ji? Oh, the horror!

M.V.

 

[Sha'irullah]

Qur'an, Hadith and Scholars:Aisha - WikiIslam

Do you dispute any of this?

For those with intelligence the life of Muhammadis in the hadith and the hadith is not the Qur'an .