Was Muhammad a good man?

[1robin]

Better then believing a Prophet banged his own daughters. O got to drunk and feel asleep naked for his sons to see.Or believe one had a man killed just so he could have the women he fornicated with (who was married).

Good Lord man, The first two are two different prophets and both things were done against their will by others. The latter was repented for and heavy price was paid by the man. What David would call his greatest mistake Muhammad would call morning exercise. David was not lopping heads off by the hundreds from helpless innocent captives.

1. Unlike the Quran the Bible is honest about it's prophet's and finds no need to lie about their being sinless.
2. Biblical prophets are prophetic not perfect.
3. Not only does the Quran say an exceedingly sinful man was sinless but then reverses it's self, rewrites stories of Biblical prophets recorded thousands of years before anyone heard of Muhammad and simply omits or adds as needed.
4. If that was not bad enough it then insinuates the Quran's corrupted versions of Biblical stories are right and the original is wrong.

We admit our prophets were sinful, your pointing that out does not make Muhammad any better of a person.

And of course, better then believing in a prophet-god who shat and **** and was easily killed by mere men.

This deserves no reply. Christ brought people back from the dead, Muhammad sent them there.

NOW;

Is the only defense you have for Muhammad to point fingers at others (who are not claimed to have been sinless and weren't)? Typical.

 

[1robin]

Not interested in your apologetics.

What you have to say about the sons of Israel killing a whole town? What about Israelites killing whole towns at the order of god? What about Davids expeditions?

Pfft, keep your dirty nose down to bro

Your own book shows Prophets have been orderd to kill and raid.

We admit our profits sinned as men do. It is your book that says they were sinless and it is you that says that is not true. You loose either way. I have stated many times it is not that Muhammad killed that is the problem it is that he did it for his own reasons countless times (even in Islam's earliest records).

He killed for:
1. Money.
2. Revenge.
3. To silence poets who's words he did not like.
4. To forcefully convert.
5. As payback for wrongs he suffered or imagined from his earliest days trying to preach Islam.
6. To force compliance to treaties he forced others to agree to.

Why did Islam's first relatively peaceful years only produce about 250 followers but it's next dozen bloody years produce 100,000? Islam only sells when it comes will money, power, and land apparently. Christianity exploded even in the face of the Earth's greatest empires persecution. You have given the only defense of Muhammad I can remember that pretty much never mentions him.

 

[1robin]

I say he was a terrible man for helping to wreck the Pagan religions of the pre-Muslim Arabs. I condemn anyone who took part in destroying the religions of old in order to force conversion to monotheism on them.

He partially wrecked them by killing a good many of them. However he partially preserved them but putting many of their teachings (some virtually word for word) and their ceremonies (all the major Islamic duties were Pagan) into the Quran.

 

[Pastek]

It is your book that says they were sinless and it is you that says that is not true.

How can you believe that someone who heard God or had visions/revelation from Him do that kind of sins after that ?

I have stated many times it is not that Muhammad killed that is the problem it is that he did it for his own reasons countless times (even in Islam's earliest records).

He killed for:
1. Money.
2. Revenge.
3. To silence poets who's words he did not like.
4. To forcefully convert.
5. As payback for wrongs he suffered or imagined from his earliest days trying to preach Islam.
6. To force compliance to treaties he forced others to agree to.

I'm sure you debated this with other members, and it's clearly not possible to still believe that.

 

[1robin]

How can you believe that someone who heard God or had visions/revelation from Him do that kind of sins after that ?

Which sins? You gave three, two of which the prophet was unaware of and done by others to him. The third was repented of and paid a heavy price for. If God can't use sinful men then he is not God and men are beyond help. You claim he used a man that gave Satanic verses, was cursed, had symptoms that exactly match what the Bible describes as demonic possession, killed for personal gain and glory, and who's theology no one wanted until money and power came with it. Yes God can use sinful men because that is all that is available and he is God. Why in the world do Muslims constantly tell me what their God could not do? Not much of a God.

I'm sure you debated this with other members, and it's clearly not possible to still believe that.

What kind of an argument is this? Are you actually saying I am wrong because you are sure someone some where told me I was? No one has made even an attempt at a effective response to any of those claims. I gave early and respected Islamic sources for those when I originally posted them. Just one battle (Badr) I gave at least six and one secular historian respected by Islamic scholars. I must have posted three pages on that battle alone and 90% of it was from Islamic texts.

 

[FearGod]

How can you believe that someone who heard God or had visions/revelation from Him do that kind of sins after that ?



I'm sure you debated this with other members, and it's clearly not possible to still believe that.

Those as mentioned in the quran

BEHOLD, as for those who are bent on denying the truth – it is all one to them whether thou warnest them or dost not warn them: they will not believe. (2:6)

God has sealed their hearts and their hearing, and over their eyes is a veil; and awesome suffering awaits them. (2:7)

 

[1robin]

Those as mentioned in the quran

BEHOLD, as for those who are bent on denying the truth – it is all one to them whether thou warnest them or dost not warn them: they will not believe. (2:6)

God has sealed their hearts and their hearing, and over their eyes is a veil; and awesome suffering awaits them. (2:7)

That's about as circular as it gets. The Quran is true because it says it is. That is probably the worst in a long line of bad arguments concerning what Holy text is true.

 

[Breathe]

Christianity exploded even in the face of the Earth's greatest empires persecution.

But Japanese persecution of Christians wiped out all but a few handfuls; what's your opinion on why one was so successful in continuing to grow and explode in numbers, but another, well, wasn't?

 

[FearGod]

That's about as circular as it gets. The Quran is true because it says it is. That is probably the worst in a long line of bad arguments concerning what Holy text is true.

As you believe the bad things which have been said about the prophet to be true then we too think and believe that the quran was revealed to the prophet Mohammed as a message to the whole world.

 

[1robin]

But Japanese persecution of Christians wiped out all but a few handfuls; what's your opinion on why one was so successful in continuing to grow and explode in numbers, but another, well, wasn't?

That is a false optimality fallacy. For your logic to be true no one would have ever been martyred and then you would have claimed the prediction of martyrs was a lie. Heads you win tails God looses is not an argument. God allows freewill, that includes the capacity to reject him. AS far as I know Moses died, Paul died, Ezekiel died and the son of God died? Is there an argument there some where? Until you can prove that to be Christians makes us impervious to death I don't think so. As far as the last question goes I am not qualified to detail why God did what he did for every instance or event in time.

 

[1robin]

As you believe the bad things which have been said about the prophet to be true then we too think and believe that the quran was revealed to the prophet Mohammed as a message to the whole world.

I have no problem with that as long it is stated as a belief, not fact. BTW a related question for you no one has ever explained.

1. Muhammad said the Bible (the book) was to be used to judge the Quran by.
2. We know exactly what the Bible of Muhammad's day said (they still exist).
3. Exactly which parts are corrupt?
4. How would a 7th century Arab know which parts?
5. What is the standard to determine corruption?

Even my favorite Muslim apologist (Shabir Ali) gave up and said whatever disagrees with the Quran is corrupt. So did Deedat. That is absurd. To claim the Bible should be used judge the Quran except in the countless places it condemns it is just silly and as circular as your argument was.

Also why does the Quran contain many pagan and heretical texts almost word for word that existed before it?

 

[FearGod]

I have no problem with that as long it is stated as a belief, not fact. BTW a related question for you no one has ever explained.

1. Muhammad said the Bible (the book) was to be used to judge the Quran by.
2. We know exactly what the Bible of Muhammad's day said (they still exist).
3. Exactly which parts are corrupt?
4. How would a 7th century Arab know which parts?
5. What is the standard to determine corruption?

Even my favorite Muslim apologist (Shabir Ali) gave up and said whatever disagrees with the Quran is corrupt. So did Deedat. That is absurd. To claim the Bible should be used judge the Quran except in the countless places it condemns it is just silly and as circular as your argument was.

Also why does the Quran contain many pagan and heretical texts almost word for word that existed before it?

That is off topic and irrelevant.

Yes i agree it is a belief,we believe Islam to be our way for salvation while you believe Jesus is your way for salvation.

 

[Pastek]

Also why does the Quran contain many pagan and heretical texts almost word for word that existed before it?

Were ?

 

[1robin]

Were ?

Hopefully you meant where?

Sources of Islam,
Sources according to Muslims,
Arabian Customs maintained in Islam,
Subjects taken from Jewish Commentators,
Cain and Abel,
Abraham,
Queen of Sheba,
Hârût and Mârût,
Mount Sinai,
The Preserved Table Tales derived from Heretical Christian Sects,
The Seven Sleepers,
Mariam and Virgin Mary,
Childhood of Jesus,
The Heavenly Table,
The Paraclete,
The Balance,
Abraham's Ascent to Heaven Zoroastrian Subjects,
The Mirâj: Muhammad's Ascent to Heaven,
Paradise and Houries,
Azâzîl, the Evil Spirit,​

The Light of Muhammad
http://pdf.amazingdiscoveries.org/eBooks/THE_ORIGINAL_SOURCES_OF_THE_QURAN.pdf

The Quran Confesses Allah Was a Pagan God before Islam

The Pagan Religious Sources of Islam

I of course welcome contentions to claims but I do not recognize dismissals of entire site because they claim something inconvenient for someone. In thousands of posts I have virtually never dismissed anything based on bias alone. The first link is by far the most exhaustive and comprehensive but the same claims can be found on hundreds of sites.

 

[1robin]

That is off topic and irrelevant.

That is why I gave it as a BTW footnote.

Yes i agree it is a belief,we believe Islam to be our way for salvation while you believe Jesus is your way for salvation.

You certainly have the right but so far I have seen no justification for that belief.

 

[Pastek]

Hopefully you meant where?

Lol yes .

Sources of Islam,
Sources according to Muslims,
Arabian Customs maintained in Islam,
Subjects taken from Jewish Commentators,
Cain and Abel,
Abraham,
Queen of Sheba,
Hârût and Mârût,
Mount Sinai,
The Preserved Table Tales derived from Heretical Christian Sects,
The Seven Sleepers,
Mariam and Virgin Mary,
Childhood of Jesus,
The Heavenly Table,
The Paraclete,
The Balance,
Abraham's Ascent to Heaven Zoroastrian Subjects,
The Mirâj: Muhammad's Ascent to Heaven,
Paradise and Houries,
Azâzîl, the Evil Spirit,​

The Light of Muhammad
http://pdf.amazingdiscoveries.org/eBooks/THE_ORIGINAL_SOURCES_OF_THE_QURAN.pdf

The Quran Confesses Allah Was a Pagan God before Islam

The Pagan Religious Sources of Islam

I of course welcome contentions to claims but I do not recognize dismissals of entire site because they claim something inconvenient for someone. In thousands of posts I have virtually never dismissed anything based on bias alone. The first link is by far the most exhaustive and comprehensive but the same claims can be found on hundreds of sites.

Thank you, i read them later.

 

[FearGod]

You certainly have the right but so far I have seen no justification for that belief.

The same thing for me,i have seen no justification to worship a man as one part of God in your belief.

 

[Sha'irullah]

The same thing for me,i have seen no justification to worship a man as one part of God in your belief.

I could not agree with this statement anymore . You speak truthful words here.

Christianity is nothing but an attempt to give the Jewish god a face through Hellenic understanding. It is even more bizarre that the revelation of Jesus was offered by Greek understanding and created from them.

Only a roman would make a god a man

 

[Breathe]

That is a false optimality fallacy. For your logic to be true no one would have ever been martyred and then you would have claimed the prediction of martyrs was a lie. Heads you win tails God looses is not an argument.

:areyoucra
I made no fallacies, I asked a question.

God allows freewill, that includes the capacity to reject him. AS far as I know Moses died, Paul died, Ezekiel died and the son of God died? Is there an argument there some where? Until you can prove that to be Christians makes us impervious to death I don't think so.

What are you on about?

I asked you a question. I'd like an answer or an "I don't know".

As far as the last question goes I am not qualified to detail why God did what he did for every instance or event in time.

So that's a passive-aggressive way of saying "I don't know".

You don't know. Okay. No need to get feisty.

 

[1robin]

The same thing for me,i have seen no justification to worship a man as one part of God in your belief.

I will not debate your beliefs but if you present an argument against Christ as I have against Muhammad in this thread I will evaluate it.