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Was Muhammad a good man?

What is your opinion on Muhammad?

  • He was a great man and those who insult him must be punished!

    Votes: 60 27.9%
  • He was a great man, but people are free to insult him

    Votes: 47 21.9%
  • He was not a good man, but we should respect him because I believe in respecting other religions

    Votes: 23 10.7%
  • He was a terrible man and we should condemn his awful actions!

    Votes: 85 39.5%

  • Total voters
    215

no-body

Well-Known Member
Why did God select a man who would at some point jump the rails and mislead billions of people? Unless a reliable way is known to separate his ego from his revelation (IMO there none of the latter) then the whole book is too potentially dangerous to bother with. It also is redundant and unnecessary.

My interpretation on what a prophet and person of God is differs greatly from what all the Abrahamic religions interpretations are. I believe we could find such faults with any of them, even Jesus, if we looked very hard. They where all human beings mythologized through their cultures.

When we get closer to Mohammeds day it becomes harder to mythologize because of record keeping. Arabic culture also had a different sense of what a perfect being was so they didn't line it up entirely with the bible as people did when they made up and inserted stories about Jesus in the bible.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
i guess he tried to help you to find more stories against the prophet which is of your interest. :)
Facts are against your prophet, that is why I am against him. Honestly answer this if you will. What was the purpose of your statement to me above?
 

no-body

Well-Known Member
The problem that most people talking about Islam don't know anything about Islam except that they search for false stories and distorted facts.

[youtube]_baxu3z60PM[/youtube]
Abdur Raheem Green - Life Of the Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him). - YouTube

[youtube]3Y2Or0LlO6g[/youtube]
Lesley Hazleton: A "tourist" reads the Koran - YouTube

I've gone over such propaganda before and it doesn't mean anything to me. People telling me that Mohammed and the Quran is great just because it is, is quite meaningless.

I've read the Koran and I find Mohammed to be far from perfect. That is a fact. If I have to change who I am to see different, something is wrong. Like with the bible if the Koran where the word of God it would have changed me by itself. Unless you think I need to learn Arabic to truly understand it, which in that case God has a very poor system in place to reach people.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
My interpretation on what a prophet and person of God is differs greatly from what all the Abrahamic religions interpretations are. I believe we could find such faults with any of them, even Jesus, if we looked very hard. They where all human beings mythologized through their cultures.
While there is certainly some truth to this the sad reality is that one does not have to dig especially deep to uncover the faults and truly odd foibles of Muhammad.

When we get closer to Mohammeds day it becomes harder to mythologize because of record keeping. Arabic culture also had a different sense of what a perfect being was so they didn't line it up entirely with the bible as people did when they made up and inserted stories about Jesus in the bible.
It is also very helpful when the vast majority of the record keepers are your fanatical followers. Again, think about what those ardent, fanatical followers thought to tell us about (some of it is seriously terrible stuff and events) and then spend a moment and ponder what they may have decided to leave out of their myth-making.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
My interpretation on what a prophet and person of God is differs greatly from what all the Abrahamic religions interpretations are. I believe we could find such faults with any of them, even Jesus, if we looked very hard. They where all human beings mythologized through their cultures.
I am well on record as claiming God certainly could use sinful men to further his causes. The Bible's prophets (except Christ) were all sinful. The difference between them and Muhammad in this context is this. Are you saying you have found a sin in the records concerning Christ? If he sinned it is not recorded.

1. We do not claim sinful men were sinless.
2. Our prophets did not at some point start misleading men by the billions through false revelation.

My statement was not so much about a prophet, but about the God who sent them. What kind of a God would send a prophet who would at some point leave the fold and mislead billions? That is inconsistent with a good God but is very consistent with a bad one or a non-prophet.

When we get closer to Mohammeds day it becomes harder to mythologize because of record keeping. Arabic culture also had a different sense of what a perfect being was so they didn't line it up entirely with the bible as people did when they made up and inserted stories about Jesus in the bible.
Claiming god or bad is a mater of opinion. Claiming sinless-ness is not. We came Christ was sinless because he never made a morally wrong choice. Muhammad made an unbroken massive amount of them. If he was sinless the term has no meaning.
 
The worst expected stupidity from any educated human is his calling a bad man a bad man on his face and/or that bad man's admirer's faces. The reason is no matter how educated a person appears to be, if his mind and heart are not spiritually educated by which I mean to have acquired the mastery and control of his natural instincts (to be happy when praised and hurt when not or worse when he is lambasted or lampooned). A spiritually educated man remains unaffected by praises showered on him and insults heaped on him, because he knows very correctly that these praises do not elevate his self and the insults do not degrade it either. However very few on this earth are actually gifted with spirituality. I therefore shall not attribute goodness or badness to Muhammad the pioneer of the faith of Islam or its propagator, or argue on his and followings dogma that he was God's ultimate messenger on earth and God's lecturing him of His nature and His commands. That is left for the wise to understand and evaluate if at all an evaluation seems to be necessary. I mean there are other important things of priority for the benefit of mankind to talk and be concerned about than him and his faith and his claims and his traditions.

I during my stay as an auditor checking the finances of an Indian Railroad Company, in the days of Saddam's supreme command and control on Iraq, that was awarded laying rail tracks from Basra to Ain Al Tamar (the date's eye) city and building rail stations in between, had an eight months long stay to be able to learn Arabic (speak, read and write). The teacher, an Iraqi from Basra told me that this was a low language in comparison to the language of the Koran and the traditions of Muhammad. I asked him what that other Arabic was called
and he said it was Al Lisaan Al Fusahaa (the language of the eloquent and learned). That was how I learned to read and recite and copy the Koran verse by verse in the Arabic Naskh calligraphic script and primarily read and learn to understand, the translations in English of the Koran and later the commentaries (Tafseers) of Jalaluddin Ibn Jalaluddin Assuyuti and Ibn Kathir et al. This lead me to study the entire history of Islam and Muhammad's biography by learned Arab Muslim biographers as Ibn Ishaaq and Ibn Hissaam, and a few books of his traditions (SIhaah Sitteh). I therefore have some basic knowledge of Muhammad's life and times and the Koran itself containing 6,666 lines of 114 verses as seen edited and authorized by the 3rd Caliph Osman Ibn Affan (Al Mushaf Al Usmani).

Instead of attributing goodness or badness on Muhammad, I venture with utmost humility and fear of God in my heart, so as not to hurt anybody's feelings a simple question that takes its origin from the post of Kassault37 at the beginning of this web page. The subject of the nine year old Aaisha the second famous daughter of Abi Bakr Al Siddiq. Abi Bakr was Muhammad's closest companion and friend and nearly of his age, later to be instated as the 1st Caliph and successor to Muhammad's seat of supreme governance on the Muslims. Aaisha's marriage to the 52 year old Muhammad is a story of double standards imposed by Islam on women that has carried on till date.

Biologically perhaps this kind of conjugation and copulation between opposite sexes of very different ages may not pose a problem and historically too this is not a new phenomenon. In fact Muhammad's very first wedding in his prime youth of 25 years had been with a 40 year old rich Arab widow called Khadija in Mecca, before his becoming God's last messenger!

In India's Mahabharata, we see the fifty-nine year old sage Parashar getting aroused sexually by the charms of 11 year old Matsyagandha a fisherman's daughter, and asking her father to give her in marriage to him. The poor lower caste fisherman in fear of repercussions from the upper caste Brahmins, agreeing to that demand, and the birth in total social seclusion on an island surrounded by the Yamuna river, of India's revered sage and compiler of the Mahabharata, the famous Krishnadwaipyaana Vyaasacharya out of that hush hush copulation, after which Parashar returns Matsyagandha to her father and takes his son Vyasa for ever from his mother. Fortunately for Matsyagandha, the aged King of Hastinapur Shantanu later being infatuated by her beauty eventually marries her and she lives like a queen for the rest of her life.

My case is that of the 9 year old girl Aaisha, who lives as Muhammad's girl bride for no longer a year. What kind of marital pleasures or pains she experiences in that short period is only to be imagined, though volumes of traditions exist today of her own testimonies of copulating with her aged 52 year old husband and their attaining sexual surmises many times together on a regular basis. The matter is did she conceive and attain motherhood which was the social and desired reason for her marriage? History says 'No!' Alright there. Not all couples bear children in their long marital span from youth to old age. Nothing unhappy about that. The question is what is expected of an young issue less widow in her early teens in her 11th year of life? Should she not got married again and enjoy a full womanhood as a mother? What then had happened to her in her widowhood? Islam talks with command to get widows remarried after the period known as the Iddah. This is what is dictated in the Koran itself! Could she also not live a full married life like her elder sister Asma Bint Abi Bakr (awarded the title of Zaat Un Nataaqin) who was the wife of Zubair Ibn Awwam, Muhammad's cousin, and the mother of the martyred Caliph Abdullah Ibn Zubair whose birth had heralded joy to the Quraish in refuge at Medina during the years of exile?

All widows are religiously expected to get married soon after the Iddah! Aisha had no choice but to live a life of celibacy till death in her old age. Why? Because the Koran (God's Lectures) had declared Muhammad's wives to be the Mother's of the Believers,(Ummahaat Al Momineen) years before his death! Which Muslim could dare to marry his spiritual mother? Leave aside the fact that out of 13 recorded marriages, only three were Muhammad's virgin wives, the rest being either widows or divorced or as the case of the hapless Safiya (Sophia) the beautiful Jewish wife of the slain Jewish chieftain from a Jewish village near Medina whose people having earned Muhammad's wrath for not aiding him during him being attacked by his non-believing kinsmen from Mecca. After the skirmish from the attcking hordes from Mecca was over the Muhammad gave notice to these Jews to convert to Islam and pay obeisance (Jaziya) to him and be protected from his attacks, or vacate their settlements and move elsewhere far from his reaches, or to be ready for his armed attack. The small number of Jews fell easy preys to Muhammad's Jehadis and were all butchered. The women and children were enslaved and led to live as slaves forever even after converting to Islam. The enslaved Jewish women were distributed by lottery to each Arab house hold to live and die as concubines bearing children to their masters who could not share and bequeath their property as the wedded heirs could. Safiya however was the prize catch and given over to Muhammad who the traditions say did marry her with the permission from the Koran that allows Muslim men to wed Jewish and Christian chaste girls but forbids Muslims to give their daughters in marriage to Jewish or Christian boys.

That same Koran that had said about Muhammad to be no father to any man in belief (meaning Muslims)! Wa Maa Muhammadan Aba Ahadin Min Rijaalikum! And Muhammad is not the father to any of you men! What a controversy in God's Lectures to His messenger! What double standards! Why??????
 
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Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
1robin said:
1. Was this only intended as information? I appreciate it either way.
2. Was it an argument against what I stated?
3. Did it have another purpose?

I am unsure what you intended here. My claims are unusual for theological issues in that they can be proven. I hope your not disagreeing with them.

My intention is to help you. I prefer Christianity to Islam. James Holding's first article on Islam is at http://www.tektonics.org/guest/osama01.html. That article alone would be a big help to you.
 
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FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
Facts are against your prophet, that is why I am against him. Honestly answer this if you will. What was the purpose of your statement to me above?

:yes: ,and he sent you a link to find more similar facts,
Who knows,you may find one interesting fact saying Mohammed was used to be drunk the whole night.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
you may find one interesting fact saying Mohammed was used to be drunk the whole night.
That might explain his telling tales of flying on a winged horsey with the human head and haggling with God.

Al-Buraf_Hafifa.jpg
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
That might explain his telling tales of flying on a winged horsey with the human head and haggling with God.

Al-Buraf_Hafifa.jpg

Yes that one is interesting story too,other stories described it as UFO with aliens and not an animal as shown in the picture.

IMO,the drunk is the one who believes such stories to be facts.
 

Galen.Iksnudnard

Active Member
"Kill them where you find them"

That's not the whole verse either....Read it context...

;)

I'm afraid context doesn't matter. To me it doesn't matter that there was a war on at the time the verses were revealed. There is no context in which abject killing or murder can be considered good; even in war, there should be a sense of moderation. Besides, if you are truly fighting a defensive war there should be no need to go that far. The point is that the Koran which claims to be the "Word of Allah" is ordering people to commit atrocious acts.

Context simply doesn’t matter when your supposed supreme being is shown either to be breathlessly evil, or to have no interest in anyone’s well-being either way.

RBWgl.png
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
My intention is to help you. I prefer Christianity to Islam. James Holding's first article on Islam is at Osama Abdallah Jihaded. That article alone would be a big help to you.
I have looked into the link. It is a good data base but many of the links your link gave are of sites that no Muslims will even consider. That is not in any way to suggest they are wrong, in fact it probably means they are right. I will keep looking for personal reasons as it was a very comprehensive site. Thanks.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
:yes: ,and he sent you a link to find more similar facts,
Who knows,you may find one interesting fact saying Mohammed was used to be drunk the whole night.
You did not answer my question but I did not think you would. Your statement was a complaint in question form only. Surprisingly I have never heard a single historical claim that even suggested Muhammad ever drank at all. I have never even thought about it. I guess whacking heads off requires reasonable aim. Just joking (mostly) but you started it.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Yes that one is interesting story too,other stories described it as UFO with aliens and not an animal as shown in the picture.

IMO,the drunk is the one who believes such stories to be facts.
What about the splitting of the moon which is not recorded by a single astrologer in the Roman Empire, Greece, Africa or anywhere outside of Islam, one Indian who was not even alive at the time, and one photo shopped doctored NASA image with a crack in it. That one was even claimed as true by a Muslim in this thread.
 
Seriously I ask this question humbly to all members here. Can you call a person a bad one only for his preposterous claims on his attaining God's messenger-hood while praying in seclusion in an abandoned cave in a hill in evening's falling darkness? Nothing unusual about that! He claims that he is God's last messenger on earth till the coming of the doomsday. Any problems to the worlds majority of human population living without the concept of prophets of a lonely God who grants only one life to a human? No because that message or concept of monotheism is yet to be introduced to them! Any problems to the rest of the monotheistic, polytheistic, atheist human population of his times that AT THE POINTING OF HIS FOREFINGER AND HIS COMMAND THE FULL MOON IN THE NIGHT SKY SPLITS INTO TWO EQUAL HALVES AND THE TWO HALVES FALL ON EITHER SIDE OF THE HORIZON IN THE NIGHT SKY AND STAY SEPARATED AND SUSPENDED TILL HE ORDERS THEM TO JOIN BACK AS ONE AGAIN IN THE MID SKY????????? Yes? Any takers today? May be none! But still does that claim earn that self styled God's ultimate messenger the description of a BAD MAN? No it does not! You may call him crazy or a fibber but certainly not BAD!!!

What then is your opinion on that God's last messenger and the Lectures of God that were transcended to him or read to him most of the times by the Archangel Gabriel, which reads "AND JESUS SON OF MARY WAS NOT PUT TO DEATH ON THE CROSS! WE CAUSED THE ROMAN SOLDIER WHO WAS SENT TO ARREST JESUS TO BE MADE TO LOOK LIKE JESUS AS WE CHANGED HIS COUNTENANCE TO THAT OF JESUS AND IT WAS THAT ROMAN WHO ACTUALLY HAD DIED ON THE CROSS IN JERUSALEM!" ?????????????????

The mission of Jesus Christ in Judea was not a local Jew's revolt to the tyranny in Judea by Herod the vassal to the mighty Roman Emperor Tiberius to whom Jesus was shown as a propagator for a Jewish ethnic unrest there. He and his gubernator Pontius Pilate had nothing to do with Jesus preaching the good news of liberty from the malpractices of the Jewish Rabbi in Solomon's temple at Jerusalem and the unjust interpretation of the Mosaic law there. He was telling the world that all men were born equal and all were the beloved children of God! He was an Avatar of truth and love in human form. His compassion for the poor the weak and the children was God's manifestation of bliss to mankind. His curing the lepers and feeding the multitude with a handful of bread and roasted fish and his bringing back of the dead and buried Lazarus were miracles possible only when they rarely occur on earth with divine orders! He was heralding a new order of happy and meaningful age in which freedom was guaranteed to all people of all races. His crucifixion on Golgotha and his resurrection and ascent to heavens and thereafter coming to visit his disciples in ethereal but human form has been witnessed and documented by his doubting disciple Saint Thomas who has died in far away India. To deny Jesus Christ of the fact of his crucifixion, is not a mad man's fancy! It is the malice of a charlatan to prove to his following the claim that non other than him (Muhammad) the king of all God's prophets, had to suffer hurts from the people, to whom messengers were sent to preach Gods' Lectures! Muhammad was slapped openly and spat upon in Mecca by Arab chiefs abnegating his self styled prophet hood. His legs had to profusely bleed in the streets of Taaif where Arab boys had pelted stones on him. His own uncle used to plant thorns on his paths for which God's only curse on a named person appeared in God's Lectures! How could the execution of Jesus Christ on the cross be allowed to be believed by his Muslims? Believing Jesus to be born of a virgin Mary was no problem! Adam was born out of clay! But dying on the cross would surely take the cake of glory away from God's last messenger on earth! How could that not be dismissed in God's lectures?

Enough of Christ bashing? No! More is to come! His prophesy includes 'AND JESUS SON OF MARY, NOW SAFE IN HEAVENS, SHALL DESCEND IN DAYS TO COME TO FIGHT SATAN'S EMISSARY DAJJAAL ON THE GROUNDS OF MEDINA WHEN I AM GONE. JESUS AFTER VANQUISHING DAJJAAL WITH HIS SWORD SHALL ACCEPT IN PUBLIC ME TO BE GOD'S LAST MESSENGER AND PUBLICLY READ MY KALMA TAYYABA (LAA ILAAHA ILLALLAH! MUHAMMADAR RASOOL ALLAH!) JESUS THEREAFTER SHALL LIVE IN MEDINA AS MY SUBORDINATE AND REPRESENTATIVE TILL HIS DEATH! JESUS SHALL MARRY IN MEDINA AND HAVE CHILDREN AND AFTER HIS DEATH HE SHALL BE BURIED IN THE GROUND FACING THE FEET OF MY GRAVE!" (BOOK OF TRADITIONS SUNAN IBN MAAJA AND OTHERS IN THE COLLECTION ASSIHAAH ASSITTEH)

A BAD MAN? I leave it to you to phrase your words!
 
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Satnaam

Conquer your mind
Sat Naam wrote above:


Thanks for your response Sat Naam!

I had the impression that Sikhs respected all religions... oh well...

How about seeing the good in other religions..Can you go that far?

The most important thing is that we respect all human beings REGARDLESS of religious beliefs or any other factor. We do not believe in idol worship or polytheism but our Prophet did not think twice before sacrificing himself for the religious freedom of the Hindus. EB Hall wrote this line in her book on Voltaire: "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it". Same way, Sikhi dissaproves the violents practises of Islam and idol worship etc but we respect all human beings and even their rights to say it (our 6th Gurus built mosque and temple in Hargobindpur for the poor Hindus and Muslims, a town led by the 6th Prophet himself).

This is in contract to Islam where they say everyone is wrong and we ought to kill the infidels. Fight against the Dar ul Harb and Taqiyya - lying to infidels (and killing them, subjugating them, raping them) are also parts of Islam. These are inhuman practises and any sane person will reject Islam.
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
What about the splitting of the moon which is not recorded by a single astrologer in the Roman Empire, Greece, Africa or anywhere outside of Islam, one Indian who was not even alive at the time, and one photo shopped doctored NASA image with a crack in it. That one was even claimed as true by a Muslim in this thread.

i believe the moon was splitted,but not divided to 2 halves as well i believe that Jesus was formed in the womb of virgin Mary without the need for a sperm.
 

Assad91

Shi'ah Ali
This is in contract to Islam where they say everyone is wrong and we ought to kill the infidels.
For some groups of Muslims, that may be true. But for a lot of other groups, that is simply untrue.

Fight against the Dar ul Harb
Never even heard of such.

Taqiyya - lying to infidels (and killing them, subjugating them, raping them) are also parts of Islam. These are inhuman practises and any sane person will reject Islam.
Taqiyyah is Shia practice and has historically been used mostly towards oppressors, as Taqiyyah is the dotrine of hiding ones true beliefs in times when revealing them would be ones death sentence.
 

Assad91

Shi'ah Ali
I'm afraid context doesn't matter. To me it doesn't matter that there was a war on at the time the verses were revealed. There is no context in which abject killing or murder can be considered good; even in war, there should be a sense of moderation. Besides, if you are truly fighting a defensive war there should be no need to go that far. The point is that the Koran which claims to be the "Word of Allah" is ordering people to commit atrocious acts.

Context simply doesn’t matter when your supposed supreme being is shown either to be breathlessly evil, or to have no interest in anyone’s well-being either way.
So, it is wrong because in a defensive war, you shouldn't have to kill everyone who fights you?

And context doesn't matter? So you do agree with the Islamic terrorists interpretation and methodology of Quran, which is the same as yours?



BTW, where is all of you hadith qouters at? You like to post hadith when it suits you, why no post hadith on how the Prophet ordered the army to leave the soldiers who fought them retreating alone?
 

Assad91

Shi'ah Ali
I think this is important to remember. The so-called "historical sources" may not be very historical at all as they were written by biased observers. Given the Islamic tendency towards taqiyya the supposedly "good" things attributed to Muhmmad may be no more true than the things published in a North Korean biography of Kim Jong Il. Certainly in both cases, the content and what that was censored are written with an agenda - that of perpetuating a mythic persona.

Arthra, with all due respect, these are pro-Islamic sites and therefore may not be neutral in their evaluation. Such sites are always written with an agenda and with truth being secondary.
Hah. And with all due respect, this IslamWatch website is anti-Islamic site and therefore may not be neutral in their evaluation. Such sites are always written with an agenda and with truth being secondary.
 
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