Desert Snake
Veteran Member
This statement doesn't make sense.
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Was Pilate totally blameless for crucifying Jesus?
- Thread starter Dubio
- Start date
This statement doesn't make sense.
CynthiaCypher
Well-Known Member
Pilate didn't put up with mobs period. That is a well known fact. In fact due to prior actions by Pilate you would think people would be afraid to form a mob around him.
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Oh, so this is really just speculation on your part.
CynthiaCypher
Well-Known Member
No. It's Josephus and Philo. They paint a very different picture of Pilate than the one given in the NT.
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
I think you should provide a reference from Josephus, then, to affirm your opinion.
CynthiaCypher
Well-Known Member
Maybe you should just go look up Josephus.
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
So Josephus and Philo state that when Jesus was before Pilate, there was no mob? Can you please provide a source?
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
RF Etiquette Lesson Time!
When a member makes a statement that he/she claims is factual rather than simply an opinion, and he/she is asked to provide a source to substantiate that statement, it is courteous to provide the source rather than telling the other party, "Look it up yourself."
When the "Look it up yourself" tactic is employed, this is considered evidence that the claimant actually has no source to offer and is, instead, well...bluffing - or at the very least, shooting from the hip.
CynthiaCypher
Well-Known Member
No. They don't about Jesus, they talk about Pilate and how he dealt with mobs.
fallingblood
Agnostic Theist
Actually, he did put up with mobs. There is at least one account early on that he submitted to the will of a mob. Instead of killing them all, he submitted.
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Ah, well, since you won't provide a source, I will:
Josephus on Pontius Pilate and the Aqueduct Riots
Flavius Josephus, The Jewish War 2.175-177
"On a later occasion he provoked a fresh uproar (in other words, another uproar - sounds like these uproars directed at Pilate, presumably by "mobs," were not uncommon) by expending upon the construction of an aqueduct the sacred treasure known as Corbonas; the water was brought from a distance of seventy kilometers. Indignant at this proceeding, the populace formed a ring round the tribunal of Pilate, then on a visit to Jerusalem, and besieged him with angry clamor. (Sounds like a mob to me.)
He, foreseeing the tumult, (probably based on past mob behavior) had interspersed among the crowd a troop of his soldiers, armed but disguised in civilian dress, with orders not to use their swords, but to beat any rioters with cudgels. He now from his tribunal gave the agreed signal.
Large numbers of the Jews perished, some from the blows which they received, others trodden to death by their companions in the ensuing flight. Cowed by the fate of the victims, the multitude (ie, mob) was reduced to silence."
Flavius Josephus, Jewish Antiquities 18.60-62
"He spent money from the sacred treasury in the construction of an aqueduct to bring water into Jerusalem, intercepting the source of the stream at a distance of thirty-five kilometers. The Jews did not acquiesce in the operations that this involved; and tens of thousands of men assembled and cried out against him, bidding him relinquish his promotion of such designs. Some too even hurled insults and abuse of the sort that a throng will commonly engage in.
He thereupon ordered a large number of soldiers to be dressed in Jewish garments, under which they carried clubs, and he sent them off this way and that, thus surrounding the Jews, whom he ordered to withdraw. When the Jews were in full torrent of abuse he gave his soldiers the prearranged signal.
They, however, inflicted much harder blows than Pilate had ordered, punishing alike both those who were rioting and those who were not. But the Jews showed no faint-heartedness; and so, caught unarmed, as they were, by men delivering a prepared attack, many of them actually were slain on the spot, while some withdrew disabled by blows. Thus ended the uprising."
Flavius Josephus, The Jewish War 2.175-177
Josephus on Pontius Pilate and the Aqueduct Riots (Bible History Online Quotes)
In fact, this slaughter did not stop Jews and Samaritans from assembling in protestations in the future, as this writing about events AFTER this slaughter testifies:
The Antiquities of the Jews/Book XVIII - Wikisource
Josephus on Pontius Pilate and the Aqueduct Riots
Flavius Josephus, The Jewish War 2.175-177
"On a later occasion he provoked a fresh uproar (in other words, another uproar - sounds like these uproars directed at Pilate, presumably by "mobs," were not uncommon) by expending upon the construction of an aqueduct the sacred treasure known as Corbonas; the water was brought from a distance of seventy kilometers. Indignant at this proceeding, the populace formed a ring round the tribunal of Pilate, then on a visit to Jerusalem, and besieged him with angry clamor. (Sounds like a mob to me.)
He, foreseeing the tumult, (probably based on past mob behavior) had interspersed among the crowd a troop of his soldiers, armed but disguised in civilian dress, with orders not to use their swords, but to beat any rioters with cudgels. He now from his tribunal gave the agreed signal.
Large numbers of the Jews perished, some from the blows which they received, others trodden to death by their companions in the ensuing flight. Cowed by the fate of the victims, the multitude (ie, mob) was reduced to silence."
Flavius Josephus, Jewish Antiquities 18.60-62
"He spent money from the sacred treasury in the construction of an aqueduct to bring water into Jerusalem, intercepting the source of the stream at a distance of thirty-five kilometers. The Jews did not acquiesce in the operations that this involved; and tens of thousands of men assembled and cried out against him, bidding him relinquish his promotion of such designs. Some too even hurled insults and abuse of the sort that a throng will commonly engage in.
He thereupon ordered a large number of soldiers to be dressed in Jewish garments, under which they carried clubs, and he sent them off this way and that, thus surrounding the Jews, whom he ordered to withdraw. When the Jews were in full torrent of abuse he gave his soldiers the prearranged signal.
They, however, inflicted much harder blows than Pilate had ordered, punishing alike both those who were rioting and those who were not. But the Jews showed no faint-heartedness; and so, caught unarmed, as they were, by men delivering a prepared attack, many of them actually were slain on the spot, while some withdrew disabled by blows. Thus ended the uprising."
Flavius Josephus, The Jewish War 2.175-177
Josephus on Pontius Pilate and the Aqueduct Riots (Bible History Online Quotes)
In fact, this slaughter did not stop Jews and Samaritans from assembling in protestations in the future, as this writing about events AFTER this slaughter testifies:
The Antiquities of the Jews/Book XVIII - Wikisource
fallingblood
Agnostic Theist
History seldom, if ever, tells us that a person is nothing more than x. Pilate may have been brutal, but he wasn't dumb.
CynthiaCypher
Well-Known Member
So do you think he was in fact a sympathetic figure as portrayed in the NT?
fallingblood
Agnostic Theist
Not at all. But I don't think it is as simple as him being a mass murderer either.
CynthiaCypher
Well-Known Member
sure there were probably more protest. But notice how Pilate deals with them. Pilate was not the type of person to be pushed around by a mob. I highly doubt a mob of Jews coerced Pilate into crucifying one of their own. That would be a sin.
What sort of Jew would be so evil has to hand over another Jew over to their oppressors? Maybe a few collaborators but I highly doubt a whole mob.
Pilate crucified Jesus because he wanted too crucify him.
CynthiaCypher
Well-Known Member
But that is what he was....a mass murderer who actions toward the Jews were acts of state terrorism.
Me Myself
Back to my username
In a subjective topic like morality and in this kind of scenario is really hard to say how much is "enough". But if we can give more and there are people for which that is life or death, to the least we should know that and not fake that somehow it is different if they were in front of us asking as if they are just a webpage in the internet that you do know is there.
I don´t know about the more historical Pilate though, I am merel talking for what I´ve heard of him. If that´s false, okay, but at least talking for what I´ve heard my opinion of his decision would simply be: he is as blameless as most of us, and you figure out how blameless that is.
outhouse
Atheistically
its not simply
but he was fired for being so brutal
we know quite a bit about him, he was no cat to appose
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
You're changing your story though. You said there was no mob, because Pilate wouldn't allow a mob. Now you're saying something different.
The story in the gospels sounds like a mob scene - with Pilate rather enjoying the spectacle - playing it up a bit, dramatically washing his hands, playing the crowd somewhat.
outhouse
Atheistically
Kathryn
The event doesnt have enough historicity one way or another to know anything for sure. BUT odds are there was no trial and Pilate and Caiaphas only wanted peace for the weekend and had better things to do then dealing with a peasant teacher.
Remember upon jesus arrest, the apostles would have fled in fear for their lives. Who is left as a witness at this point????