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Was Satan wrong to demand equal rights in heaven?

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
We are. She is just as much of our creation as the Gods we have created.

Any way I could get you to stop posting unnecessary rule 7 violations? Not seeing why that's necessary.

I do not see us striving to be the fittest as a negative. How you can see it as a negative must be due to personal data and nothing scientific.

What scientific data can you present to show that narcissism has been any sort of a catalyst for social development in the positive sense?

If it was destructive, I doubt that that trait would be passed down to us.

The "trait" is passed down to us sociologically, not biologically (unless you're still talking about the Id in which case were not actually having the same conversation).

It does create stress and kills us faster when left unchecked.

So you're a proponent of controlled narcissism? I would be interested in hearing what you think it's advantages are and where you think the line should be drawn.

You do not seem to like our selfish gene but nature does.

Regards
DL

Again: this has nothing to do with biology. There may well be some sort of inherited biological propensity that could help explain the tendency for self-aggrandizing, but for the most part it appears to be a by-product of man-made sociological norms.
 

Greatest I am

Well-Known Member
No I don't agree. According to the scriptures God became flesh so Jesus was fully God while also fully human, meaning He could die in the flesh. Certainly the eternal God can not die, but if God is God the Creator of heaven and earth He is certainly carry out His plan to redeem humanity as the scriptures attest He did.

I agree it is wrong to punish one human child or anyone for the wrongs of another. But I don't think your analogy works as a comparison to the biblical message of atonement and reconciliation through Christ because Jesus Christ is not just "anyone" who was punished for the sins of the world. I see revealed in the scriptures that He is God the Son, second Person of the Godhead, the Creator who chose to come Himself to pay for the sins of the world and redeem humanity. The lesson for me is His love...Self-sacrificing, demonstrative, forgiving, complete LOVE. It also teaches me the huge cost of my sin to myself, others, and God. I'm grateful I've learned to "change my mind" from striving for my own will to believing and desiring God's perfect loving will.

According to the scriptures, Christ willingly paid for your sins and my sins so that we could escape paying the eternal penalty ourselves. Contrary to your assessment of this act as immoral, God calls it grace and love. A person who comes to understand this and repents is changed and indwelt by Christ, not escaping responsibility, but through God's mercy escaping eternal separation.

I've been reading over some of your posts and it seems to me that the hate which you so easily accuse others of having is dominant in your own mind and heart. It would be one thing if you were sincerely questioning, but you appear to be most interested in railing against God and attacking His character with venomous hate and derogatory language. It is bad enough that you belittle others who you really don't know, but I really fear for you speaking about the Creator of heaven and earth who you presume to know, but don't, in such a disrespectful way. Whether you choose to believe it or not the scriptures state that...for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment (Matthew 12:36).

Christians get exactly what they deserve from me.

But you go ahead and believe that your God is idiot enough to condemn you just to turn around and --- sort of --- die for you.

Continue to delude yourself into you immoral beliefs. Continue to call evil good.

Regards
DL
 

Greatest I am

Well-Known Member
Any way I could get you to stop posting unnecessary rule 7 violations? Not seeing why that's necessary.



What scientific data can you present to show that narcissism has been any sort of a catalyst for social development in the positive sense?



The "trait" is passed down to us sociologically, not biologically (unless you're still talking about the Id in which case were not actually having the same conversation).



So you're a proponent of controlled narcissism? I would be interested in hearing what you think it's advantages are and where you think the line should be drawn.



Again: this has nothing to do with biology. There may well be some sort of inherited biological propensity that could help explain the tendency for self-aggrandizing, but for the most part it appears to be a by-product of man-made sociological norms.

Ok. It seems that you do not think man has instincts.

I guess that Freud was wrong and his father Complex should be scrapped.

I ignored your narcissism remarks because I do not recognise speaking of that at all. You introduced the term. Not I.

I did speak of our selfish gene and I like that part of us. It helps us survive.

Regards
DL
 

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
Ok. It seems that you do not think man has instincts.

And it seems that you believe that's all we have.

I guess that Freud was wrong and his father Complex should be scrapped.

Who brought Freud into this? :shrug: As I recall, you did, and as I pointed out, you brought him up under the misguided pretext that the "Ego" I was talking about was somehow synonymous with Freud's "Id".

At this point, considering how many times I've tried to clarify, I'm having a hard time understanding why you're still confused about all this.

I ignored your narcissism remarks because I do not recognise speaking of that at all.

So you don't believe narcissism exists?

You introduced the term. Not I.

Yes, it's fairly central to my interpretation of the story. Considering you initiated this conversation by commenting on my interpretation, that led me to believe you wanted to talk about it. :shrug:

I did speak of our selfish gene and I like that part of us. It helps us survive.

Regards
DL

I like avocados, but I probably won't be bringing them up in this thread because I don't see what relevance they'd have to the topic.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
Christians get exactly what they deserve from me.

But you go ahead and believe that your God is idiot enough to condemn you just to turn around and --- sort of --- die for you.

Continue to delude yourself into you immoral beliefs. Continue to call evil good.

Regards
DL

How did you come to your perspectives regarding God or spiritual matters? Were you raised with any kind of religion or spirituality? Just curious.
 

Greatest I am

Well-Known Member
How did you come to your perspectives regarding God or spiritual matters? Were you raised with any kind of religion or spirituality? Just curious.

If I may take a shortcut. I was asked that before and answered it while showing what I believe and asking for an evaluation.

--------------------------

Care to compare the Jesus you know to the one I know?

I have been asked to do an O P showing my beliefs and have written a nutshell view to fill that request.

I was a skeptic till the age of 39. I then had an apotheosis and later branded myself an esoteric ecumenist and Gnostic Christian. Gnostic Christian because I exemplify this quote from William Blake and that makes me as hated by Christians today as the ancient Gnostics that Constantine had the Christians kill when he bought the Catholic Church.

“Both read the Bible day and night, But thou read'st black where I read white.”

This refers to how Gnostics tend to reverse, for moral reasons, what Christians see in the Bible. We tend to recognize the evil ways of the O. T. God where literal Christians will see God’s killing as good. Christians are sheep where Gnostic Christians are goats.

This is perhaps why we see the use of a Jesus scapegoat as immoral, while theists like to make Jesus their beast of burden. An immoral position.

During my apotheosis, something that only lasted 5 or 6 seconds, the only things of note to happen was that my paradigm of reality was confirmed and I was chastised to think more demographically. What I found was what I call a cosmic consciousness. Not a new term but one that is a close but not exact fit.

I recognize that I have no proof. That is always the way with apotheosis.

This is also why I prefer to stick to issues of morality because no one has yet been able to prove that God is real and I have no more proof than they for the cosmic consciousness or what I call; the Godhead.

The cosmic consciousness is not a miracle working God. It does not interfere with us save when one of us finds it. Not a common thing from what I can see. It is a part of nature and our next evolutionary step.

I tend to have more in common with atheists who ignore what they see as my delusion because our morals are basically identical. Theist tend not to like me much as I have no respect for literalists and fundamentals and think that most Christians have exaggerated tribal mentalities and poor morals as they have developed a double standard to be able to stomach their God.

I am rather between a rock and a hard place but this I cannot help.

I am happy to be questioned on what I believe but whether or not God exists is basically irrelevant to this world for all that he does not do, and I prefer to thrash out moral issues that can actually find an end point. The search for God is never ending when you are of the Gnostic persuasion. My apotheosis basically says that I am to ignore whatever God I found, God as a set of rules that is, not idol worship it but instead, raise my bar of excellence and seek further.

My apotheosis also showed me that God has no need for love, adoration or obedience. He has no needs. Man has dominion here on earth and is to be and is the supreme being.

Since then, I have tried to collect information that would help any that believe that apotheosis is possible, generally not Christians, --- as they do not believe in the mythical esoteric Jesus that I believe in and churches do not dare teach it.

This first clip gives the theological and philosophical interpretation of what Jesus taught and the second clip show what I think is a close representation of the method that helped me push my apotheosis.



Basically, the usual Christian Jesus is their hero and savior while my version demand that man himself steps up to the plate and save himself.

Which version do you think is more moral and deserving of praise and why?

Regards
DL
 

InChrist

Free4ever
If I may take a shortcut. I was asked that before and answered it while showing what I believe and asking for an evaluation.

--------------------------

Care to compare the Jesus you know to the one I know?


Regards
DL


Thank you for sharing your story and views. I appreciate hearing the perspectives of others and how they were reached.

I think the historical Jesus, revealed in the scriptures as God in the flesh, that I believe in is much more moral and loving simply because He exists as opposed to a mystical, esoteric Jesus that doesn’t except in the imagination. More importantly, the real Person of Jesus Christ who is God and Creator offers real personal transformation to everyone and solutions for the problems in the world. The idea of a universal/cosmic christ consciousness is not new as you stated yourself. Yet, from my perspective this concept or belief is not very realistic or hopeful. Human behavior and history of greed, war, violence, etc. proves the truthful reality expressed in the Bible that everyone sins. If we truly are divine or have access to some cosmic consciousness then it is quite extraordinary that our divine self or cosmic connection is so easily blinded, overpowered and paralyzed by our ignorant self. How can the lower human self so easily subdue the all-knowing, all power divine cosmic God/Christ consciousness you speak of so that human evil and violence prevail so pervasively on earth?

I think that when we examine ourselves honestly it is clear that a real Savior is needed. I don’t think Jesus was playing mind or word games with hidden meanings when He made statements like: “I am the way, the truth, and the Life, no one comes to the Father except through Me” ; And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”; “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.”; “For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost.”
 

Greatest I am

Well-Known Member
Thank you for sharing your story and views. I appreciate hearing the perspectives of others and how they were reached.

I think the historical Jesus, revealed in the scriptures as God in the flesh, that I believe in is much more moral and loving simply because He exists as opposed to a mystical, esoteric Jesus that doesn’t except in the imagination. More importantly, the real Person of Jesus Christ who is God and Creator offers real personal transformation to everyone and solutions for the problems in the world. The idea of a universal/cosmic christ consciousness is not new as you stated yourself. Yet, from my perspective this concept or belief is not very realistic or hopeful. Human behavior and history of greed, war, violence, etc. proves the truthful reality expressed in the Bible that everyone sins. If we truly are divine or have access to some cosmic consciousness then it is quite extraordinary that our divine self or cosmic connection is so easily blinded, overpowered and paralyzed by our ignorant self. How can the lower human self so easily subdue the all-knowing, all power divine cosmic God/Christ consciousness you speak of so that human evil and violence prevail so pervasively on earth?

I think that when we examine ourselves honestly it is clear that a real Savior is needed. I don’t think Jesus was playing mind or word games with hidden meanings when He made statements like: “I am the way, the truth, and the Life, no one comes to the Father except through Me” ; And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”; “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.”; “For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost.”

The problem in believing in a Jesus who is a part of the Trinity you believe in is that ity associates a kind and gentle man with a genocidal son murdering vile and evil demiurge.

How do you reconcile the Jesus shepherd who will die for a human soul and will not judge it, to the God who created hell and the lake of fire to consume the vast majority of us?

Jesus would walk through fire to save us while God uses fire to destroy most of us?

---------------------------

As to needing a savior. You are saying we are a make work project for God who has to baby sit us and die for us when you well know that God cannot die. This aside.


Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by putting forward their free will argument and placing all the blame on mankind.

That usually sounds like ----God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy. Such statements simply avoid God's culpability as the author and creator of human nature.

Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all do evil/sin by nature then, the evil/sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not do evil/sin. Can we then help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil and sin is all human generated and in this sense, I agree with Christians, but for completely different reasons. Evil is mankind’s responsibility and not some imaginary God’s. Free will is something that can only be taken. Free will cannot be given not even by a God unless it has been forcibly withheld.

Much has been written to explain evil and sin but I see as a natural part of evolution.

Consider.

First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created. Without intent to do evil, no act should be called evil.

In secular courts, this is called mens rea. Latin for an evil mind or intent and without it, the court will not find someone guilty even if they know that they are the perpetrator of the act.

Evil then is only human to human when they know they are doing evil and intend harm.

As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.

Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil, at all times.

Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, you should see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us. Wherever it came from, God or nature, without evolution we would go extinct. We must do good and evil.

There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.

This link speak to theistic evolution.

The Pope Would Like You to Accept Evolution And the Big Bang | Smart News | Smithsonian


If theistic evolution is true, then the myth of Eden should be read as a myth and there is not really any original sin.

Doing evil then is actually forced on us by evolution and the need to survive. Our default position is to cooperate or to do good. I offer this clip as proof of this. You will note that we default to good as it is better for survival.




Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

Regards
DL
 
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InChrist

Free4ever
The problem in believing in a Jesus who is a part of the Trinity you believe in is that ity associates a kind and gentle man with a genocidal son murdering vile and evil demiurge.

How do you reconcile the Jesus shepherd who will die for a human soul and will not judge it, to the God who created hell and the lake of fire to consume the vast majority of us?

Jesus would walk through fire to save us while God uses fire to destroy most of us?

I believe that God's character includes love, compassion and mercy as well as justice. Yes, according to the scriptures Jesus went to the cross to save us, yet He will also bring judgment on all that is wrong and evil.

For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son (John 5:21-22)





/QUOTE]Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

Regards
DL
[/QUOTE]

Okay, I can agree that everyone sins and no one can help it. So your question does make sense. I believe the answer is that the punishment is not so much for all the sins and evil we have done which we couldn't help doing, because Jesus (as God in the flesh) already paid for all those.. According to the scriptures there is only one unforgivable sin and this one sin each person does have control over- the choice to accept or reject the remedy and freedom God offers from sin and evil. So I believe the punishment is for refusing the remedy. Even this punishment which is described as separation from God for eternity is actually a self-induced punishment by those who do not want to be in the presence of God and who choose to live in their sinful state forever.
 

Greatest I am

Well-Known Member
I believe that God's character includes love, compassion and mercy as well as justice. Yes, according to the scriptures Jesus went to the cross to save us, yet He will also bring judgment on all that is wrong and evil.

For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son (John 5:21-22)

Okay, I can agree that everyone sins and no one can help it. So your question does make sense. I believe the answer is that the punishment is not so much for all the sins and evil we have done which we couldn't help doing, because Jesus (as God in the flesh) already paid for all those.. According to the scriptures there is only one unforgivable sin and this one sin each person does have control over- the choice to accept or reject the remedy and freedom God offers from sin and evil. So I believe the punishment is for refusing the remedy. Even this punishment which is described as separation from God for eternity is actually a self-induced punishment by those who do not want to be in the presence of God and who choose to live in their sinful state forever.[/QUOTE]

Correct. You can either accept or reject the notion that the innocent should be punished and not the guilty and that that is a good form of justice.

You have accepted that totally immoral and unjust principle thus showing how your religion has corrupted your morals.

Human sacrifice is evil and that is what you are embracing.

Regards
DL
 

InChrist

Free4ever
Correct. You can either accept or reject the notion that the innocent should be punished and not the guilty and that that is a good form of justice.

You have accepted that totally immoral and unjust principle thus showing how your religion has corrupted your morals.

Human sacrifice is evil and that is what you are embracing.

Regards
DL

According to the scriptures human sacrifice is immoral and was forbidden by God, so I do not embrace it. I have already said I do not see Jesus' sacrifice as "human sacrifice" since He was not just any human being and I see nothing immoral or wrong with God coming to earth to save humanity. I have Jesus as my Savior, not a religion.

I think at this point our conversation is just going in circles, so we will have to just realize we don't agree or see things in the same way. Thanks for the conversation, though, and sharing your thoughts.
 

Unification

Well-Known Member
Was Satan wrong to demand equal rights in heaven?


Heaven, from what we can speculate, seems to be a system that some would call a tyranny as no one was allowed to question anything or ask for change in leadership or policies.


Was Satan and the third of angels who rejected tyranny wrong to demand equal rights, and if so, are all people who demand equal rights on earth also doing something satanic?


Is this why most religions are reluctant to give women and gays equality? Do Christians and Muslims think equality to be evil and satanic?


Do religious people think that their Gods frown on the notions of equality of all people and is that why believers deny women and gays equality?


Regards

DL

The scriptures, all of them are about the brain and the mind from an inside and internalized perspective. Every human has a brain and a mind.

There are 12 legions of angels, or 12 tribes, in every human brain, these are the 12 cranial nerves.

Heaven is a complete state of conscious rest, peace, equality, and oneness.

Any fallen cranial nerves in a brain will lead to judging others, and every other problem in the world, individually and collectively.

Satan is a metaphor for ego. All problems stem from one mind or a group of like minded ego's.

Man (the soul's) helpmate is the woman (mind).

All problems stem from creating God(s) in ones own image, in ones own mind...

Maybe now we can realize that we have created God(s) in the image and likeness of ourselves.

We needed something to justify our violence against others who don't agree with us.

We needed something to justify our need to forcibly change the way of others we do not agree with.

We needed a God(s) who agreed with us and was/is like us.

It's all in the mind. It's all the woman's (mind's) fault.
 

Unification

Well-Known Member
According to the scriptures human sacrifice is immoral and was forbidden by God, so I do not embrace it. I have already said I do not see Jesus' sacrifice as "human sacrifice" since He was not just any human being and I see nothing immoral or wrong with God coming to earth to save humanity. I have Jesus as my Savior, not a religion.

I think at this point our conversation is just going in circles, so we will have to just realize we don't agree or see things in the same way. Thanks for the conversation, though, and sharing your thoughts.

Jesus is a metaphor for conscious wisdom, truth, understanding, knowledge being revealed to a human's mind in the form of consciousness. That is what saves. A renewed mind.

Earth in scripture is another way of conveying "matter." So when Jesus(consciousness, wisdom, truth, understanding, knowledge) arrives in the brain made of matter, we either listen or we don't.

The perfect example is the adulterous woman which represents the mind. It is unclean. Jesus writes on the ground two times (the two hemispheres of the brain) .... The individuals become consciously aware.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
Jesus is a metaphor for conscious wisdom, truth, understanding, knowledge being revealed to a human's mind in the form of consciousness. That is what saves. A renewed mind.

Earth in scripture is another way of conveying "matter." So when Jesus(consciousness, wisdom, truth, understanding, knowledge) arrives in the brain made of matter, we either listen or we don't.

The perfect example is the adulterous woman which represents the mind. It is unclean. Jesus writes on the ground two times (the two hemispheres of the brain) .... The individuals become consciously aware.
Thanks for sharing your perspective. It is always interesting hearing, rather reading, the thoughts of others. I believe Jesus is a real, living Being, not a metaphor for wisdom, truth, understanding, and knowledge, but the embodiment of these attributes.
 

Unification

Well-Known Member
Thanks for sharing your perspective. It is always interesting hearing, rather reading, the thoughts of others. I believe Jesus is a real, living Being, not a metaphor for wisdom, truth, understanding, and knowledge, but the embodiment of these attributes.

Absolutely, friend. Thanks for the response. Most of the time we have no clue what scriptures mean, yet we experience it.
 

Greatest I am

Well-Known Member
According to the scriptures human sacrifice is immoral and was forbidden by God, so I do not embrace it. I have already said I do not see Jesus' sacrifice as "human sacrifice" since He was not just any human being and I see nothing immoral or wrong with God coming to earth to save humanity. I have Jesus as my Savior, not a religion.

I think at this point our conversation is just going in circles, so we will have to just realize we don't agree or see things in the same way. Thanks for the conversation, though, and sharing your thoughts.

You are right that the circle has begun as you do not equate your Jesus savior with human sacrifice which is what the Christian creed is. You say you reject human sacrifice by embracing one.

The usual Christian blindness.

Regards
DL
 

Greatest I am

Well-Known Member
The scriptures, all of them are about the brain and the mind from an inside and internalized perspective. Every human has a brain and a mind.

There are 12 legions of angels, or 12 tribes, in every human brain, these are the 12 cranial nerves.

Heaven is a complete state of conscious rest, peace, equality, and oneness.

Any fallen cranial nerves in a brain will lead to judging others, and every other problem in the world, individually and collectively.

Satan is a metaphor for ego. All problems stem from one mind or a group of like minded ego's.

Man (the soul's) helpmate is the woman (mind).

All problems stem from creating God(s) in ones own image, in ones own mind...

Maybe now we can realize that we have created God(s) in the image and likeness of ourselves.

We needed something to justify our violence against others who don't agree with us.

We needed something to justify our need to forcibly change the way of others we do not agree with.

We needed a God(s) who agreed with us and was/is like us.

It's all in the mind. It's all the woman's (mind's) fault.

Esoteric can be interpreted various ways but no argument.

The Gnostic Jesus I follow would applaud your thinking.

"All problems stem from creating God(s) in ones own image, in ones own mind..."

Yes, but all the good of improving on the known Gods comes from us creating God(s) in ones own images.

Note how much better secular law is compared to the older religious laws.

Think of Freud's Father Complex and enjoy your instincts pushing you to invent the best God ever.

Regards
DL
 

Greatest I am

Well-Known Member
Thanks for sharing your perspective. It is always interesting hearing, rather reading, the thoughts of others. I believe Jesus is a real, living Being, not a metaphor for wisdom, truth, understanding, and knowledge, but the embodiment of these attributes.

If a real living being and a part of the Trinity then his so called sacrifice would be a useless show or sham from a God who cannot die.

To follow a God who likes to punish the innocent instead of the guilty, and call it justice, is to show that ones morals need improving and that Christian morals are garbage.

Regards
DL
 
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