Was Satan wrong to demand equal rights in heaven?

[Sabour]

If Satan had/has no free will, how could she have rebelled or refused to bow?

That would be impossible for a creature without a free will. Right?

Further, if Satan did not go to Eden on her own to pester Eve, why did God order Satan to tempt Eve knowing she could not resist?

Regards
DL

I think you missed the point where I said that Satan was not an angel in my previous post

Satan is not an angel. And scholars say that God ordered Satan to bow for Him, and not for Adam.

 

[Greatest I am]

I think you missed the point where I said that Satan was not an angel in my previous post

That was easy eh. Just invent some new entity.

What is she if not an angel and how many different types of entities did God have up there?

Regards
DL

 

[Sabour]

That was easy eh. Just invent some new entity.

What is she if not an angel and how many different types of entities did God have up there?

Regards
DL

And [mention] when We said to the angels, "Prostrate to Adam," and they prostrated, except for Iblees. He was of the jinn and departed from the command of his Lord. Then will you take him and his descendants as allies other than Me while they are enemies to you? Wretched it is for the wrongdoers as an exchange.


Iblees is the name of Satan.



There were Angels and Jinn before Adam and Eve were created.

 

[Desert Snake]

Strange how non-Christians can think more clearly than idol worshiping Christians.

Thanks for the reply.

If Christians were more concerned with enlightenment as most Eastern religions are and not just focused on obedience and their get into heaven free card/scapegoat whipping boy, then they too might think clearly.

Regards
DL

Any portrayal of Satan is likewise an idol as well. I assume you agree.

 

[Greatest I am]

And [mention] when We said to the angels, "Prostrate to Adam," and they prostrated, except for Iblees. He was of the jinn and departed from the command of his Lord. Then will you take him and his descendants as allies other than Me while they are enemies to you? Wretched it is for the wrongdoers as an exchange.


Iblees is the name of Satan.



There were Angels and Jinn before Adam and Eve were created.

Not much point in discussing anything when you are flipping back and forth from one myth to another.

I know the Christian myth better than yours and it seems that you believe literally only what a fool would believe literally.

If you ever want to drop your supernatural and superstitious nonsense then I am here for you.

Seek Gnosis.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

Any portrayal of Satan is likewise an idol as well. I assume you agree.

An idol and myth, yes.

God would be a good idol and Satan an evil one. Christians are not good at explaining why a good idol would create an evil idol though.

They say there is no evil in the good one yet there has to be if he created the character and nature of the evil one.

Regards
DL

 

[Sabour]

Not much point in discussing anything when you are flipping back and forth from one myth to another.

I know the Christian myth better than yours and it seems that you believe literally only what a fool would believe literally.

If you ever want to drop your supernatural and superstitious nonsense then I am here for you.

Seek Gnosis.

Regards
DL

Never mind.

I am sorry you chose to reply that way.

You have to realize that there are some things that can't be tested because they are beyond our senses. However, the source makes it undeniable which is the Quraan, the revelation from God.

I know you most probably don't care about this, but I just wanted to show you where I come from.

I am really disappointed that our conversation ended that way.

 

[Desert Snake]

An idol and myth, yes.

God would be a good idol and Satan an evil one. Christians are not good at explaining why a good idol would create an evil idol though.

They say there is no evil in the good one yet there has to be if he created the character and nature of the evil one.

Regards
DL

So, this is metaphor. I'm not really sure what you mean by a Xian idol, if people are worshipping Jesus. There are all sorts of idols, even people, so I find the term ''idol'', a tad vague and subjective. We represent things with depictions, it's just very common, what makes one thing an idol, and another, just a depiction, that's what i'm getting at. Btw, as far as Jesus, I don't have any pictures of Him, but if I did, I don't know what the ''problem'' would be.

 

[Greatest I am]

Never mind.

I am sorry you chose to reply that way.

You have to realize that there are some things that can't be tested because they are beyond our senses. However, the source makes it undeniable which is the Quraan, the revelation from God.

I know you most probably don't care about this, but I just wanted to show you where I come from.

I am really disappointed that our conversation ended that way.

The information I have on the Qur'an shows the ancients changing words and the script.

Do you not think it strange that a revelation from God would be changed by your ancestors?

Would a revealed message be ignored by one Muslim sect and not the other?

That is what happens when a religion splits off into various sects.

A house divided against itself cannot stand, especially when it is based on the supernatural and superstitions.

Put away the childish things and your idol worshiping ways and we can seek God together.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

So, this is metaphor. I'm not really sure what you mean by a Xian idol, if people are worshipping Jesus. There are all sorts of idols, even people, so I find the term ''idol'', a tad vague and subjective. We represent things with depictions, it's just very common, what makes one thing an idol, and another, just a depiction, that's what i'm getting at. Btw, as far as Jesus, I don't have any pictures of Him, but if I did, I don't know what the ''problem'' would be.

worship

noun wor·ship \ˈwər-shəp also ˈwȯr-\
: the act of showing respect and love for a god especially by praying with other people who believe in the same god : the act of worshipping God or a god

: excessive admiration for someone

Do you fit this dictionary definition?

Note that the definition does not speak of pictures as being required.

Regards
DL

 

[InChrist]

You continue to show your lack of morality.

You want God to return evil for the evil you see while your own bible tells you and God to return good to the evil.l

Your hate is making you ignore your own bible's good advice.

Thanks for showing all here your hate and how you prefer to have God kill instead of cure those he created to be exactly what they are.

Show more of your filthy morals. It does good for my side. Keep showing the hate your religion preaches while ignoring scriptures.

Regards
DL

Actually the Bible is clear that because God is Love, He desires that no one should perish, but that all would come to repentance (be changed and cured) 2 Peter 3:9.
You are certainly correct that humans are commanded to love their enemies and to return good to evil and that is because we are not the ultimate Judge of another as is God and He alone knows when evil must be dealt with.

I am sorry you consider justice "hate". You can continue to accuse me of hate if it makes you feel better, but It's just not true. I live in the love of Jesus Christ who I believe expressed the greatest love possible for you and everyone.

God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8

 

[Desert Snake]

worship

noun wor·ship \ˈwər-shəp also ˈwȯr-\
: the act of showing respect and love for a god especially by praying with other people who believe in the same god : the act of worshipping God or a god

: excessive admiration for someone

Do you fit this dictionary definition?

Note that the definition does not speak of pictures as being required.

Regards
DL

Are you asking if I worship something? Not really. How is jesus any more of an idol than ideology?

 

[Greatest I am]

Actually the Bible is clear that because God is Love, He desires that no one should perish, but that all would come to repentance (be changed and cured) 2 Peter 3:9.
You are certainly correct that humans are commanded to love their enemies and to return good to evil and that is because we are not the ultimate Judge of another as is God and He alone knows when evil must be dealt with.

I am sorry you consider justice "hate". You can continue to accuse me of hate if it makes you feel better, but It's just not true. I live in the love of Jesus Christ who I believe expressed the greatest love possible for you and everyone.

God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8

To me that is quite the immoral lesson.

If Christ loved you he would not have first condemned you.

Only an insane God would condemn those he created and then turn and die for them.

You foolishly forget that a God cannot die.

But you do not care for the truth. All you care about is your get into heaven free card and you are willing to profit from the punishment of an innocent man to maintain your satanic oral position.

Try a different but accurate scenario and see if you still think the same self-serving and immoral way.

------------------------

Imagine you have two children. One of your children does something wrong – say it curses, or throws a temper tantrum, or something like that. In fact, say it does this on a regular basis, and you continually forgive your child, but it never seems to change.

Now suppose one day you’ve had enough, you need to do something different. You still wish to forgive your child, but nothing has worked. Do you go to your second child, your good child, and punish it to atone for the sins of the first?

In fact, if you ever saw a parent on the street punish one of their children for the actions of their other child, how would you react? Would you support their decision, or would you be offended? Because God punished Jesus -- his good child -- for the sins of his other children.

Interestingly, some historical royal families would beat their slaves when their own children did wrong – you should not, after all, ever beat a prince. The question is: what kind of lesson does that teach the child who actually did the harm? Does it teach them to be a better person, to stop doing harm, or does it teach them both that they won't themselves be punished, and also that punishing other people is normal? I know that's not a lesson I would want to teach my children, and I suspect it's not a lesson most Christians would want to teach theirs. So why does God?

For me, that’s at least one significant reason I find Jesus’ atonement of our sin to be morally repugnant – of course, that’s assuming Jesus ever existed; that original sin actually exists; that God actually exists; etc.

Having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.

Do you agree?

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

Are you asking if I worship something? Not really. How is jesus any more of an idol than ideology?

He is not if you do not worship him or accept the definition of excessive admiration for him.

Regards
DL

 

[Desert Snake]

He is not if you do not worship him or accept the definition of excessive admiration for him.

Regards
DL

That is where we disagree. 'Excessive admiration'', is not 'idolatry, it's apples and oranges. The word has more than one application; it essentially has two meanings. Or more than two, it also means statues, etc., even if they aren't worshipped.

 

[Greatest I am]

That is where we disagree. 'Excessive admiration'', is not 'idolatry, it's apples and oranges. The word has more than one application; it essentially has two meanings. Or more than two, it also means statues, etc., even if they aren't worshipped.

I gave the dictionary definition.

What is your source and does it have more authority than the dictionary?

Regards
DL

 

[Desert Snake]

I gave the dictionary definition.

What is your source and does it have more authority than the dictionary?

Regards
DL

Doesn't matter, with such a broad definition, you have made your argument silly.

 

[Greatest I am]

Doesn't matter, with such a broad definition, you have made your argument silly.

Only to those who are idol worshipers and do not want to admit it.

If you do not recognize a God, then you do not have to worry about it.

Only those who have a God can be seen as idol worshipers.

Regards
DL

 

[InChrist]

To me that is quite the immoral lesson.

If Christ loved you he would not have first condemned you.

Only an insane God would condemn those he created and then turn and die for them.

You foolishly forget that a God cannot die.

But you do not care for the truth. All you care about is your get into heaven free card and you are willing to profit from the punishment of an innocent man to maintain your satanic oral position.

Try a different but accurate scenario and see if you still think the same self-serving and immoral way.

------------------------

Imagine you have two children. One of your children does something wrong – say it curses, or throws a temper tantrum, or something like that. In fact, say it does this on a regular basis, and you continually forgive your child, but it never seems to change.

Now suppose one day you’ve had enough, you need to do something different. You still wish to forgive your child, but nothing has worked. Do you go to your second child, your good child, and punish it to atone for the sins of the first?

In fact, if you ever saw a parent on the street punish one of their children for the actions of their other child, how would you react? Would you support their decision, or would you be offended? Because God punished Jesus -- his good child -- for the sins of his other children.

Interestingly, some historical royal families would beat their slaves when their own children did wrong – you should not, after all, ever beat a prince. The question is: what kind of lesson does that teach the child who actually did the harm? Does it teach them to be a better person, to stop doing harm, or does it teach them both that they won't themselves be punished, and also that punishing other people is normal? I know that's not a lesson I would want to teach my children, and I suspect it's not a lesson most Christians would want to teach theirs. So why does God?

For me, that’s at least one significant reason I find Jesus’ atonement of our sin to be morally repugnant – of course, that’s assuming Jesus ever existed; that original sin actually exists; that God actually exists; etc.

Having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.

Do you agree?

Regards
DL

No I don't agree. According to the scriptures God became flesh so Jesus was fully God while also fully human, meaning He could die in the flesh. Certainly the eternal God can not die, but if God is God the Creator of heaven and earth He is certainly carry out His plan to redeem humanity as the scriptures attest He did.

I agree it is wrong to punish one human child or anyone for the wrongs of another. But I don't think your analogy works as a comparison to the biblical message of atonement and reconciliation through Christ because Jesus Christ is not just "anyone" who was punished for the sins of the world. I see revealed in the scriptures that He is God the Son, second Person of the Godhead, the Creator who chose to come Himself to pay for the sins of the world and redeem humanity. The lesson for me is His love...Self-sacrificing, demonstrative, forgiving, complete LOVE. It also teaches me the huge cost of my sin to myself, others, and God. I'm grateful I've learned to "change my mind" from striving for my own will to believing and desiring God's perfect loving will.

According to the scriptures, Christ willingly paid for your sins and my sins so that we could escape paying the eternal penalty ourselves. Contrary to your assessment of this act as immoral, God calls it grace and love. A person who comes to understand this and repents is changed and indwelt by Christ, not escaping responsibility, but through God's mercy escaping eternal separation.

I've been reading over some of your posts and it seems to me that the hate which you so easily accuse others of having is dominant in your own mind and heart. It would be one thing if you were sincerely questioning, but you appear to be most interested in railing against God and attacking His character with venomous hate and derogatory language. It is bad enough that you belittle others who you really don't know, but I really fear for you speaking about the Creator of heaven and earth who you presume to know, but don't, in such a disrespectful way. Whether you choose to believe it or not the scriptures state that...for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment (Matthew 12:36).

 

[Quagmire]

Who is the ego represented by?

Satan, according to my interpretation.