Was Satan wrong to demand equal rights in heaven?

[JoStories]

Where in the Bible is this found?

Nowhere, that I am aware of. The myth is that satan/lucifer wanted to be the same as God, or iow, have equal power. Another myth that I have read is that he thought he was more beautiful. The most beautiful in fact. The bottom line here is that it is Myth and nothing more. I believe the allegorical lesson is that one can want to be greater than others, or iow, the ego can be too big. Being humble is a much better thing to aspire to.

 

[Nakosis]

Equal rights is just a fantasy. You get the rights that you fight for and protect.
It's an idea that some choose to uphold. Usually out of compassion because they have suffered unequal rights.

With money, power you can purchase rights. People sue for equal rights when they don't have these things. Satan wouldn't have had to ask if he had the power.

You get the appearance of equality to placate the masses, but it's not the reality.

 

[InChrist]

So why did God create that attitude if he did not want it expressed.

After all, he did know what was to happen before it happened. Right?

Please explain that glitch.

Regards
DL

What makes you think God created another being's attitude? Just because God knew the future or knew what would happen does not mean He created the attitude which caused the problem. I don't see a glitch.

 

[Greatest I am]

Where in the Bible is this found?

Mostly in revelation.

There is not a whole lot of talk of Satan in scriptures. Job and the temptation of Christ are the only two that come to mind.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

Equal rights is just a fantasy. You get the rights that you fight for and protect.
It's an idea that some choose to uphold. Usually out of compassion because they have suffered unequal rights.

With money, power you can purchase rights. People sue for equal rights when they don't have these things. Satan wouldn't have had to ask if he had the power.

You get the appearance of equality to placate the masses, but it's not the reality.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

What makes you think God created another being's attitude? Just because God knew the future or knew what would happen does not mean He created the attitude which caused the problem. I don't see a glitch.

If God is not creating us and our attitudes and natures, then who is?

Who is God's co-creator who created Satan's character and attitudes?

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

Nowhere, that I am aware of. The myth is that satan/lucifer wanted to be the same as God, or iow, have equal power. Another myth that I have read is that he thought he was more beautiful. The most beautiful in fact. The bottom line here is that it is Myth and nothing more. I believe the allegorical lesson is that one can want to be greater than others, or iow, the ego can be too big. Being humble is a much better thing to aspire to.

Pffft.

We are told to emulate God in all of his ways. Be ye as perfect etc..

Humble is not a Godly trait.

Humble is for fools who are not sure of their statements or facts.

Churches preach humble because humble guilt ridden people pay better than those bright enough to know they should not believe in false guilt.

Regards
DL

 

[InChrist]

If God is not creating us and our attitudes and natures, then who is?

Who is God's co-creator who created Satan's character and attitudes?

Regards
DL

God created beings with a mind and freedom to choose their own attitudes. Satan chose evil in rebellion against God.and His goodness. Humans choose, also.

It Had to Be | thebereancall.org

 

[Greatest I am]

God created beings with a mind and freedom to choose their own attitudes. Satan chose evil in rebellion against God.and His goodness. Humans choose, also.

It Had to Be | thebereancall.org

Something must be wrong either with your view of free will or God's giving of it because all choose evil according to scriptures and none choose good so either we do not have free will to not choose evil, which none do, or your views are wrong.

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.

That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin.

So why did your God make sin our, and Satan's, --- dominant trait?

Regards
DL

 

[Vishvavajra]

Mostly in revelation.

There is not a whole lot of talk of Satan in scriptures. Job and the temptation of Christ are the only two that come to mind.

Regards
DL

There are some bits in Revelation that probably inspired some of later Christian myth about Satan, but I wouldn't say there's a coherent narrative there. Certainly nothing about having a revolution over wanting equal rights.

 

[Sabour]

Hmmm. Yet Muslims are also idol worshipers just as Christians are.

You would likely see that (shirk) word differently than I do.

Regards
DL

May I know how muslims are idol worshipers ?

 

[InChrist]

Something must be wrong either with your view of free will or God's giving of it because all choose evil according to scriptures and none choose good so either we do not have free will to not choose evil, which none do, or your views are wrong.

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.

That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin.

So why did your God make sin our, and Satan's, --- dominant trait?

Regards
DL

You ask an interesting question., but I'm not sure if you have really thought this issue through. Did you read the article?

I do think we have been given the ability to choose by by God, as the scriptures indicate. Yet, you have touched on something, which is that everyone does choose to sin and this is what the scriptures also say. Now, you are saying that this must mean that God deliberately made humans with a nature that must not actually have freewill and can only sin. So according to your view, if this is the case then God is culpable. Is that correct?

What if there is another reason why humans sin? Or Satan? I believe the answer lies in the reality that we are created beings made in God's image, but we are not God, and therefore we all sin and fall short of God's goodness and perfection.

"Could God have made a world inhabited by beings with the power to choose good or evil, to love or to hate, in which no one would ever have made the wrong choice and no one would have been hateful or vindictive, but unfailingly loving and kind? Obviously not, if they were truly free to choose for self instead of for Him and others. Could He have created a universe in which beings who are less than Himself would never make a choice that was less than God-like or in which beings who could do what they wanted to do would never rebel against Him? No, that would be impossible. Beings who were less than God (as are all created beings) could not live up to God’s perfection—and to sin, for those made in God’s image (Gen:1:27), is to come “short of the glory of God” (Rom:3:23)."

It Had to Be | thebereancall.org

 

[Etritonakin]

So why did God create that attitude if he did not want it expressed.

After all, he did know what was to happen before it happened. Right?

Please explain that glitch.

Regards
DL

God created the potential for that attitude. Satan chose that attitude.
Satan was a newbie. God told him the truth and he doubted.
Adam and Eve were in a similar situation -but Satan deceived himself.

Satan did not demand equal rights, he turned a third of the angels against God and attempted a coup.
He did not have what it took to replace God -even if he would have been successful.
Fortunately, Satan does not now have ultimate control.
He is not equal with God, so should not have "equal rights".

God knows good and evil -but knowing and doing are very different.
He has, at times, purposed evil -but that is also different.
He has purposed that we experience the results of sin/acting contrary to the law of love -but for our eventual benefit -as we are initially ignorant and inexperienced.

The history of the world since Adam (and the angels under Satan before) is the expression of that attitude. God did not want it expressed -but knew it would be expressed -even needed to be expressed to eventually eradicate it -because it is falsehood based on ignorance and inexperience.

Satan's attempt at taking God's throne was put down, and he and the sinning angels were restrained -doing only as God allows.

God purposefully allowed Satan and the sinning angels to interact with Eve, etc., and even to affect the course of the affairs of human nations.
Why? So that those angels and men alike will learn the end that attitude produces.

So... God allows all the "right" to express that attitude, so they can realize it's not such a great idea.

This is what God will do to Satan...... But also consider what Satan desires to do.....
God has been very patient, considering -and will prove his point in no uncertain terms.
In the beginning of the following chapter, a "prince of Tyrus" is mentioned, which is a ruler Satan (called king of Tyrus) will soon use to essentially start WWIII -which will lead to a decimation of the earth's population. He will also move them and other human forces to fight Christ when he returns. Those forces will be destroyed (later resurrected), and Satan will be imprisoned for a time.
God does know what will be -allows us to play out our attitudes -and waits until we have learned our lessons.

16By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

17Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

18Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

19All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

 

[Servant_of_the_One1]

Equal rights? Really?
For example neo nazi says: I wont shake hands with Jew, iam better than him. Is the neo Nazi demanding equal rights?
Prostration to Adam was not worship, but mere showing respect because Allah created him with His hands and gave them the command to prostrate out of respect.


Satan was doomed because of his pride and arrogance. Not his disbelief in the Oneness of Allah.
His pride and arrogance lead him to disobey command of Allah, that lead to his failure.

 

[JoStories]

Pffft.

We are told to emulate God in all of his ways. Be ye as perfect etc..

Humble is not a Godly trait.

Humble is for fools who are not sure of their statements or facts.

Churches preach humble because humble guilt ridden people pay better than those bright enough to know they should not believe in false guilt.

Regards
DL

I could not disagree more strongly. Being humble is one of the things I try to do in my life. And what God in particular doesn't have humility as a trait? I don't attend church, btw. And I am far from guilt ridden. I live, as possibl, by the tach inns of the Buddha and that works just fine.

 

[idea]

Was Satan wrong to demand equal rights in heaven?


Heaven, from what we can speculate, seems to be a system that some would call a tyranny as no one was allowed to question anything or ask for change in leadership or policies.


Was Satan and the third of angels who rejected tyranny wrong to demand equal rights, and if so, are all people who demand equal rights on earth also doing something satanic?


Is this why most religions are reluctant to give women and gays equality? Do Christians and Muslims think equality to be evil and satanic?


Do religious people think that their Gods frown on the notions of equality of all people and is that why believers deny women and gays equality?


Regards

DL

Satan did not demand equal rights in heaven - the war in heaven was over free will. Satan wanted to turn everyone into robots that followed his every whim. Either:
a) you allow everyone their own free will in which case their will be sin and suffering because people will choose xyz... but we will have free will or
b) you do not allow anyone free will, you force everyone to be good in which case their is no suffering, but everyone are mindless robots.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that the war was over equal rights?

Where in the Bible is this found?

Here is info on the war in heaven and what it was over:
War in Heaven

 

[Greatest I am]

There are some bits in Revelation that probably inspired some of later Christian myth about Satan, but I wouldn't say there's a coherent narrative there. Certainly nothing about having a revolution over wanting equal rights.

Satan was cast out for a reason that God would have seen as self-serving for Satan.

Whatever that was would have included equality. That is a logical inference as any rebellion contains an equality provision.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

May I know how muslims are idol worshipers ?

Any who claim a God are idol worshipers of that God.

Muslims claim to have and worship a God do they not?

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

You ask an interesting question., but I'm not sure if you have really thought this issue through. Did you read the article?

I do think we have been given the ability to choose by by God, as the scriptures indicate. Yet, you have touched on something, which is that everyone does choose to sin and this is what the scriptures also say. Now, you are saying that this must mean that God deliberately made humans with a nature that must not actually have freewill and can only sin. So according to your view, if this is the case then God is culpable. Is that correct?

What if there is another reason why humans sin? Or Satan? I believe the answer lies in the reality that we are created beings made in God's image, but we are not God, and therefore we all sin and fall short of God's goodness and perfection.

"Could God have made a world inhabited by beings with the power to choose good or evil, to love or to hate, in which no one would ever have made the wrong choice and no one would have been hateful or vindictive, but unfailingly loving and kind? Obviously not, if they were truly free to choose for self instead of for Him and others. Could He have created a universe in which beings who are less than Himself would never make a choice that was less than God-like or in which beings who could do what they wanted to do would never rebel against Him? No, that would be impossible. Beings who were less than God (as are all created beings) could not live up to God’s perfection—and to sin, for those made in God’s image (Gen:1:27), is to come “short of the glory of God” (Rom:3:23)."

It Had to Be | thebereancall.org

Yes. I have thought this through. Thanks for trying to demean the result. Cheep shot.

" I believe the answer lies in the reality that we are created beings made in God's image, but we are not God, and therefore we all sin and fall short of God's goodness and perfection."

Correct. We all sin and cannot but to do so and for God to punish us for being the sinners he created us to be would be quite immoral.

Do you agree.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

God created the potential for that attitude. Satan chose that attitude.
Satan was a newbie. God told him the truth and he doubted.
Adam and Eve were in a similar situation -but Satan deceived himself.

Satan did not demand equal rights, he turned a third of the angels against God and attempted a coup.
He did not have what it took to replace God -even if he would have been successful.
Fortunately, Satan does not now have ultimate control.
He is not equal with God, so should not have "equal rights".

God knows good and evil -but knowing and doing are very different.
He has, at times, purposed evil -but that is also different.
He has purposed that we experience the results of sin/acting contrary to the law of love -but for our eventual benefit -as we are initially ignorant and inexperienced.

The history of the world since Adam (and the angels under Satan before) is the expression of that attitude. God did not want it expressed -but knew it would be expressed -even needed to be expressed to eventually eradicate it -because it is falsehood based on ignorance and inexperience.

Satan's attempt at taking God's throne was put down, and he and the sinning angels were restrained -doing only as God allows.

God purposefully allowed Satan and the sinning angels to interact with Eve, etc., and even to affect the course of the affairs of human nations.
Why? So that those angels and men alike will learn the end that attitude produces.

So... God allows all the "right" to express that attitude, so they can realize it's not such a great idea.

This is what God will do to Satan...... But also consider what Satan desires to do.....
God has been very patient, considering -and will prove his point in no uncertain terms.
In the beginning of the following chapter, a "prince of Tyrus" is mentioned, which is a ruler Satan (called king of Tyrus) will soon use to essentially start WWIII -which will lead to a decimation of the earth's population. He will also move them and other human forces to fight Christ when he returns. Those forces will be destroyed (later resurrected), and Satan will be imprisoned for a time.
God does know what will be -allows us to play out our attitudes -and waits until we have learned our lessons.

16By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

17Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

18Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

19All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Click to expand...


"God created the potential for that attitude. Satan chose that attitude."

You say that man and Satan have the same attitudes. I agree. That is what your God created us to have.

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.

That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin.

Regards
DL