Was the prophet Muhammad able to read and write?

[firedragon]

@firedragon help me understand you, are you a muslim?

You keep quoting a scholar/poet from Andalus. I mentioned to you the Madhhabs, a collective of Scholars and you reject this yet are so quick to "blindly" follow just a single person with an opposing view and reject the thousands.

Moreover, the Maliki madhhab was neither the first of the madhhabs nor is it the oldest of the 4 surviving madhhabs.

Written hadith have existed for a long time. Each Imam and Scholar had written copies of what they had memorised, they were good at memorising but lets not make them superhuman and say they memorised everything they heard and did not need having them written down.

Imam Malik himself as a student would write down the hadith narrated by his teacher and go home to memorise them then go back to narrate them in his presence. This is just one example and this is from a person that lived and died in Medina.

Ad hominem.

The so called one person is from the Maliki madhab. Dont reject what his scholarship is before reading and analysing.

I didnt make anyone superhuman. You spoke of hadith, So quote me imam malik. Or do you have earlier ahadith? Quote!

 

[firedragon]

@firedragon help me understand you, are you a muslim?

You keep quoting a scholar/poet from Andalus. I mentioned to you the Madhhabs, a collective of Scholars and you reject this yet are so quick to "blindly" follow just a single person with an opposing view and reject the thousands.

Moreover, the Maliki madhhab was neither the first of the madhhabs nor is it the oldest of the 4 surviving madhhabs.

Written hadith have existed for a long time. Each Imam and Scholar had written copies of what they had memorised, they were good at memorising but lets not make them superhuman and say they memorised everything they heard and did not need having them written down.

Imam Malik himself as a student would write down the hadith narrated by his teacher and go home to memorise them then go back to narrate them in his presence. This is just one example and this is from a person that lived and died in Medina.

1st, could you state if the prophet was surely illiterate or not? That's the whole point of the opening post.

Was he illiterate for sure, you're not sure, or was he definitely literate. What's your contention?

 

[danieldemol]

The other option is that Muhammad (Peace be upon him), told the stories as they had unfolded. The Christians has started to make Doctrine that was leading the mind of man into greater error.

After all, as it was God telling the stories, we know God does not make mistakes, God does challenge our understandings.

Regards Tony

It is precisely because God does not make mistakes whilst the Quran does contain mistakes that one realises that the Quran is not a dictation from God.

For a list of errors in the Quran see Scientific Errors in the Qur'an - WikiIslam

Here is a noteworthy point from the article:

“Some will contest these numerous errors in the Qur'an by appealing to metaphor, alternative meanings, or phenomenological interpretations of the text. Even supposing alternative explanations were possible in every case, the problem would remain that the Qur’an contains no obvious attempts to differentiate its understanding of the natural world and historical events from the common folklore and unscientific misconceptions of the people living in 7th century Arabia.“

 

[firedragon]

It is precisely because God does not make mistakes whilst the Quran does contain mistakes that one realises that the Quran is not a dictation from God.

For a list of errors in the Quran see Scientific Errors in the Qur'an - WikiIslam

Here is a noteworthy point from the article:

“Some will contest these numerous errors in the Qur'an by appealing to metaphor, alternative meanings, or phenomenological interpretations of the text. Even supposing alternative explanations were possible in every case, the problem would remain that the Qur’an contains no obvious attempts to differentiate its understanding of the natural world and historical events from the common folklore and unscientific misconceptions of the people living in 7th century Arabia.“

Not relevant brother.

 

[danieldemol]

Not relevant brother.

It is relevant because once we see the Quran as the work of a human we can begin to understand why it contains story errors (ie because of the Prophets inability to cross reference stories in accordance with His memory against written works due to His illiteracy)

 

[Gharib]

1st, could you state if the prophet was surely illiterate or not? That's the whole point of the opening post.

Was he illiterate for sure, you're not sure, or was he definitely literate. What's your contention?

Muhamed alayhi salam was not literate. But at the same time he was not stupid for being illiterate.

And I asked for your religion so I can know how to speak to you, at the moment I am getting mixed messages of you being a Muslim or maybe a former Muslim or a non Muslim altogether. I dont know how much you know Islam and how simple I have to keep things or just speak normally.

 

[firedragon]

Muhamed alayhi salam was not literate. But at the same time he was not stupid for being illiterate.

Based on what?

And I asked for your religion so I can know how to speak to you, at the moment I am getting mixed messages of you being a Muslim or maybe a former Muslim or a non Muslim altogether. I dont know how much you know Islam and how simple I have to keep things or just speak normally.

My religion is not relevant. Your religion is also not relevant.

Just have a decent conversation with evidence and relevance to the topic of the thread. Thats all that matters.

Peace.

 

[firedragon]

It is relevant because once we see the Quran as the work of a human we can begin to understand why it contains story errors (ie because of the Prophets inability to cross reference stories in accordance with His memory against written works due to His illiteracy)

I get your point. Its not relevant to the topic. Errors doesn't mean one is illiterate. Being error-less is also not evidence to literacy.

Scribes made errors in copying. Doesnt mean they are illiterate.

So your whole concept of plagiarism, mistakes in plagiarism, scientific errors of the Quran etc etc are not related to the topic. Hope you can understand that.

 

[firedragon]

It is relevant because once we see the Quran as the work of a human we can begin to understand why it contains story errors (ie because of the Prophets inability to cross reference stories in accordance with His memory against written works due to His illiteracy)

Do you say that "Muhammed wrote the Quran"?

 

[danieldemol]

Do you say that "Muhammed wrote the Quran"?

I say that Muhammed authored the Quran, whether this was by dictation to a scribe or not I can not be sure of, but I think it is more likely that He dictated it.

 

[firedragon]

I say that Muhammed authored the Quran, whether this was by dictation to a scribe or not I can not be sure of, but I think it is more likely that He dictated it.

Okay. Thanks.

 

[Augustus]

because of the Prophets inability to cross reference stories in accordance with His memory against written works due to His illiteracy

How many people had access to reference libraries of 'written works' in the 7th C? Books could cost the equivalent of tens of thousands of dollars back then.

Most literate people didn't have access to libraries full of scholarly texts, so it doesn;t really work as an argument.

 

[Gharib]

Based on what?



My religion is not relevant. Your religion is also not relevant.

Just have a decent conversation with evidence and relevance to the topic of the thread. Thats all that matters.

Peace.

From Nasai,
'Ali said: "The Unlettered Prophet [SAW] made a covenant with me, that none but a believer would love me, and none but a hypocrite would hate me."

 

[firedragon]

From Nasai,
'Ali said: "The Unlettered Prophet [SAW] made a covenant with me, that none but a believer would love me, and none but a hypocrite would hate me."

Brother. nasai? Is that the one you said you could quote that was earlier than Malik?

Ya ahi. Sunan an nisai is legendarily about 100 years after Imam Maliks Muwatta.

Anyway, you should read the OP. They have translated Ummi as unlettered. So please read since the reply to this is already given in the OP. And i am still awaiting the earlier ahadith you were speaking of.

Peace.

 

[danieldemol]

How many people had access to reference libraries of 'written works' in the 7th C? Books could cost the equivalent of tens of thousands of dollars back then.

Most literate people didn't have access to libraries full of scholarly texts, so it doesn;t really work as an argument.

It’s an interesting point that few had access to libraries, but I think the Quran itself refers to writings the clerical class carried:

“The similitude of those who were charged with the (obligations of the) Mosaic Law, but who subsequently failed in those (obligations), is that of a donkey which carries huge tomes (but understands them not).“ (Quran 62:5)

So in these “huge tomes” carried by donkeys I tend to imagine would have included extracts regarding the story of Jesus birth for example, which the Quran gets wrong.

 

[firedragon]

It’s an interesting point that few had access to libraries, but I think the Quran itself refers to writings the clerical class carried:

“The similitude of those who were charged with the (obligations of the) Mosaic Law, but who subsequently failed in those (obligations), is that of a donkey which carries huge tomes (but understands them not).“ (Quran 62:5)

So in these “huge tomes” carried by donkeys I tend to imagine would have included extracts regarding the story of Jesus birth for example, which the Quran gets wrong.

You know what? Setting your standards, Arthur Bernede was illiterate because he got some aspects of landru wrong.

 

[Gharib]

Brother. nasai? Is that the one you said you could quote that was earlier than Malik?

Ya ahi. Sunan an nisai is legendarily about 100 years after Imam Maliks Muwatta.

Anyway, you should read the OP. They have translated Ummi as unlettered. So please read since the reply to this is already given in the OP. And i am still awaiting the earlier ahadith you were speaking of.

Peace.

I think you are confusing yourself Firedragon.

You said the hadith were not a reliable source because they were written down centuries later and I said that was untrue. You even stated yourself afterwards that there were written hadith in existence long before those centuries you first implied of.

And you were given a verse from the Qur'an stating Muhamed alayhi salam could not read. I have provided a hadith, I can provide you with another hadith, on what basis do you reject and dismiss them?

This hadith from Sunan Abu Dawud:

Abu Hurairah reported the Prophet (ﷺ) as sayings:
if anyone would like to have the fullest measure granted to him when he invokes blessings on us, the members of the prophet’s family, he should say: O Allah, bless Muhammad, the unlettered Prophet, his wives who are the mother of the faithful, his off springs, and the people of his house as Thou didst bless the family of Abraham. Thou art indeed praiseworthy and glorious.

 

[firedragon]

I think you are confusing yourself Firedragon.

oh great. Thanks.

You said the hadith were not a reliable source because they were written down centuries later and I said that was untrue. You even stated yourself afterwards that there were written hadith in existence long before those centuries you first implied of.

So i asked you to quote the so called ahadith that were written down earlier than a century or centuries. I asked several times. You still have not quoted. So go ahead. The only hadith you quoted so far is from Nasai who was born a 100 years after the prophet (before anyone picks on that legendarily around 96 or 97 years after the prophet died).

So go ahead.

And you were given a verse from the Qur'an stating Muhamed alayhi salam could not read. I have provided a hadith, I can provide you with another hadith, on what basis do you reject and dismiss them?

No. No verse says that the prophet Muhammed "could not read". Maybe if you go through this thread you will understand.

This hadith from Sunan Abu Dawud:

Abu Hurairah reported the Prophet (ﷺ) as sayings:
if anyone would like to have the fullest measure granted to him when he invokes blessings on us, the members of the prophet’s family, he should say: O Allah, bless Muhammad, the unlettered Prophet, his wives who are the mother of the faithful, his off springs, and the people of his house as Thou didst bless the family of Abraham. Thou art indeed praiseworthy and glorious.

Again, since you seem to have missed this same thing, try and read.

1. It says Ummi. Read point 3 in the OP.
2. Abu Dawood was also born around 200 years after the prophet.

 

[Shia Islam]

Hi everybody,

Although I am very busy, I have chosen to contribute to this interesting topic.

Let us please all put our prejudice aside.

Muhammad came with a new religion that was rejected by almost everybody initially.

His family thought that it will turn the other Arabs against them.

The Arabs thought that it will turn the global powers against them.

They Jews did not accept that the new Abrahamic prophet is an Arab.

Even the Christians, though to a less degree, were hostile against him.

Now look at the place were he was raised ..

It is Mecca, were people were living a very trivial life..

The would burry their daughter alive..

They would worship stones..

And they were nothing but divided tribes fighting one another..

They have not written a single book in their entire history..

Rarely you will find someone who reads and write in Mecca..

Then Muhammad was a very well know person who have chosen seclusion and used to worship in a cave..

Suddenly he came up with the Quran that Challenge them all to come with something similar to it..

If they were able they would have accepted the challenge rather than engaging with him in endless wars..

Just look at the Quran..

Forget that it is a religious book..

No matter what claim you will make..

The Quran is a miracle!

Now for Muhammad, It's a historical fact that he was illiterate, who spent part of his early life as a shepherd..

Now as Shia Muslims, we believe that he would perform miracles since he was a child..

But this does not contradict the fact that he was an illiterate..

However, consider the most educated person in religion, throughout the history..

Just read the Quran and you will realize that no way that this supposed highly educated person could bring something even near to the Quran..

Finally, I am quite sure that many people who have participated in this thread have not even read the Quran!

 

[firedragon]

Muhammad came with a new religion that was rejected by almost everybody initially.

Not according to the Quran. According to the Quran the prophet Muhammed was following through with the only religion. He did not bring a new religion.

But this does not contradict the fact that he was an illiterate..

I understand that you believe he was illiterate. But whats the empirical evidence that he was illiterate? Thats the question. Read the O.P, understand it, and be relevant.

Finally, I am quite sure that many people who have participated in this thread have not even read the Quran!

And rather than making general assumptions and ad hominem or genetic fallacies, analyse what people say and provide evidence to your point.

Peace.