Was the prophet Muhammad able to read and write?

[Terry Sampson]

Please open a new thread on it. I would like to discuss it there.

The topic would be "Revelations from God: stenographic or participatory or both?", right?

What would you prefer: A public thread open to anyone and everyone? a public thread open to Abrahamic faith communities?, a controlled one-on-one thread between you and me?, or a private Conversation thread between you and me? Personally, I recommend the second alternative, open only to Abrahamic faith communities, since Revelations are tend to be Abrahamic in origin, and I don't how much I would contribute to the thread.

 

[PruePhillip]

??

Well, SOMEONE was literate - we know because those early Muslims re-wrote the bible.

 

[Salvador]

Argument 1. A lot of people would have been illiterate at the time - Many people at that time would have been illiterate, but does that mean everyone was? So is it fair to make the argument that Muhammed or any single person was illiterate unless otherwise there was significant and clear evidence to the idea?

Argument 2. Ahadith say that he was illiterate - Yep. But aren't ahadith written a few centuries later? Thus, is that empirical evidence? Also, what about the ahadith that conflicts this notion like the one where the prophet apparently sees the gates of heaven and hell and sees certain things written on it and he narrates it. IF he couldn't read, how could he read what was written?

Argument 3. He is Ummi Nabi as said in the Quran - Quran does not use the word Ummi as illiterate, it uses it as gentile. So many places. So isnt it strange that translators found ummi to mean gentile all over the Quran but only when it comes to the prophet it became illiterate?

Argument 4. He was illiterate, thats why the Quran is a miracle - Well, have you used your God given aqal to think if maybe people wanted to make a miracle out of something that may not have existed and made up a story along the way?

Argument 5. Scholars agree that he was illiterate - So what now? Scholars agree and you have lost your brain? You are speaking about Ijma. What is this Ijma based on? It is based on tradition that they pick and choose because there were Maliki scholars in Al Andalus who argued that the prophet Muhammed was literate. e.g. Scholar and Poet "Abu al Walid al Baji in his book Tahkik al madhhab".

Argument 6. He dictated and got others to write - Well there is a difference in opinion among your own Islamic scholars on this. The hadith about him asking for a pen and paper at the death bed was ask someone else to write is too much of an effort to try and prove that he was illiterate. Its too much inference. He just asked for pen and paper. How in the world can you imagine that it was to get someone else to write? Well, one could argue that if he wanted a writer, he would have asked for a writer, not pen and paper.

Even in traditional schools of thought, blind taqleed is haram. I am using terms Muslims are used to in order to relate. Taqleed means to adhere to another persons school of thought. Aqal is the God given intellect a human being has to reason and think for himself. Different schools of thought have varying views on this in historical Islam.

So what do you think? Was this man an illiterate? Or is there no evidence to really prove that he was illiterate? What is this obsession about him being illiterate? Is it that people are so insecure that they want him to be an illiterate so badly they are willing to die for that cause of apologetics? Is it to make him a miracle when its unnecessary?

What say you brothers and sisters??

Of course, Muhammad was literate, that's how he was able to do a bang up job with copying ideas from the Old Testament and incorporating elements of the Old Testament into the Koran, which I believe he might have written by a copy of the Torah that Muhammad himself had hidden inside of an Arabian cave. I suspect Muhammad secretly knew Hebrew; he was very cunning as he kept his literacy abilities a secret from his followers, so they wouldn't have suspected Muhammad could've been able to use parts of the Old Testament for writing much of the Koran.

Please check out this reference: Muhammad's Plagiarism - WikiIslam

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Argument 1. A lot of people would have been illiterate at the time - Many people at that time would have been illiterate, but does that mean everyone was? So is it fair to make the argument that Muhammed or any single person was illiterate unless otherwise there was significant and clear evidence to the idea?

Argument 2. Ahadith say that he was illiterate - Yep. But aren't ahadith written a few centuries later? Thus, is that empirical evidence? Also, what about the ahadith that conflicts this notion like the one where the prophet apparently sees the gates of heaven and hell and sees certain things written on it and he narrates it. IF he couldn't read, how could he read what was written?

Argument 3. He is Ummi Nabi as said in the Quran - Quran does not use the word Ummi as illiterate, it uses it as gentile. So many places. So isnt it strange that translators found ummi to mean gentile all over the Quran but only when it comes to the prophet it became illiterate?

Argument 4. He was illiterate, thats why the Quran is a miracle - Well, have you used your God given aqal to think if maybe people wanted to make a miracle out of something that may not have existed and made up a story along the way?

Argument 5. Scholars agree that he was illiterate - So what now? Scholars agree and you have lost your brain? You are speaking about Ijma. What is this Ijma based on? It is based on tradition that they pick and choose because there were Maliki scholars in Al Andalus who argued that the prophet Muhammed was literate. e.g. Scholar and Poet "Abu al Walid al Baji in his book Tahkik al madhhab".

Argument 6. He dictated and got others to write - Well there is a difference in opinion among your own Islamic scholars on this. The hadith about him asking for a pen and paper at the death bed was ask someone else to write is too much of an effort to try and prove that he was illiterate. Its too much inference. He just asked for pen and paper. How in the world can you imagine that it was to get someone else to write? Well, one could argue that if he wanted a writer, he would have asked for a writer, not pen and paper.

Even in traditional schools of thought, blind taqleed is haram. I am using terms Muslims are used to in order to relate. Taqleed means to adhere to another persons school of thought. Aqal is the God given intellect a human being has to reason and think for himself. Different schools of thought have varying views on this in historical Islam.

So what do you think? Was this man an illiterate? Or is there no evidence to really prove that he was illiterate? What is this obsession about him being illiterate? Is it that people are so insecure that they want him to be an illiterate so badly they are willing to die for that cause of apologetics? Is it to make him a miracle when its unnecessary?

What say you brothers and sisters??

He said in the Quran, He had not read or wrote before. Did anybody in His time, come forward and say, this is a lie?

 

[Link]

Ummi actually just mean he was from Mecca, the Mother of the towns, the context of Quran for that is "umal qura", and so he is an ummi in this sense.

However - Prophet Mohammad was commanded not to read or write, before Quran was revealed. The first words revealed to him finally permitted him to read.

 

[Link]

Of course, Muhammad was literate, that's how he was able to do a bang up job with copying ideas from the Old Testament and incorporating elements of the Old Testament into the Koran, which I believe he might have written by a copy of the Torah that Muhammad himself had hidden inside of an Arabian cave. I suspect Muhammad secretly knew Hebrew; he was very cunning as he kept his literacy abilities a secret from his followers, so they wouldn't have suspected Muhammad could've been able to use parts of the Old Testament for writing much of the Koran.

Please check out this reference: Muhammad's Plagiarism - WikiIslam

The best commentary and allusions to the Torah and best way of manifesting it's wonders and correcting it's fault is the Quran, as God is most capable of guiding.

The Torah and Gospels are amazing, but Quran how iterates them and summarizes and brings new reflections is amazing as well.

You think God would leave Torah which is a guidance as well as tainted with some fabrications, uncommented on? Rather, he uses where they went right and wrong, to manifest his archetype religion in all times, to prove the last instance of it through Mohammad and his family.

 

[firedragon]

He said in the Quran, He had not read or wrote before. Did anybody in His time, come forward and say, this is a lie?

Where did he say he never read or write in the Quran?

Maybe you addressing point 3.

 

[firedragon]

The topic would be "Revelations from God: stenographic or participatory or both?", right?

What would you prefer: A public thread open to anyone and everyone? a public thread open to Abrahamic faith communities?, a controlled one-on-one thread between you and me?, or a private Conversation thread between you and me? Personally, I recommend the second alternative, open only to Abrahamic faith communities, since Revelations are tend to be Abrahamic in origin, and I don't how much I would contribute to the thread.

Your preference brother. I think even if you dont contribute anything further than a post, its a very interesting look at things. People deserve to see it and analyse it.

 

[firedragon]

Well, SOMEONE was literate - we know because those early Muslims re-wrote the bible.

Can you explain?

 

[Terry Sampson]

Of course, Muhammad was literate, that's how he was able to do a bang up job with copying ideas

Not so fast, ... wiki isn't a perfect authority, however

• According to the wiki article on Muhammad, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad, "Muhammad began to pray alone in a cave named Hira on Mount Jabal al-Nour, near Mecca for several weeks every year.[67][68] Islamic tradition holds that during one of his visits to that cave, in the year 610 the angel Gabriel appeared to him and commanded Muhammad to recite verses that would be included in the Quran.[69] Consensus exists that the first Quranic words revealed were the beginning of Surah 96:1.[70] Muhammad was deeply distressed upon receiving his first revelations. After returning home, Muhammad was consoled and reassured by [his wife] Khadijah and her Christian cousin, Waraka ibn Nawfal"
• According to the wiki article on Waraka ibn Nawfal, Waraka ibn Nawfal - Wikipedia, "was a Nestorian priest and is revered in Islamic tradition for being one of the first hanifs to believe in the prophecy of Muhammad.
  • According to Aisha, a later wife of Muhammad's, "Two different narrations from Aisha give these details
    • "Aisha also said: "The Prophet returned to Khadija while his heart was beating rapidly. She took him to Waraqa bin Naufal who was a Christian convert and used to read the Gospel in Arabic. Waraqa asked (the Prophet), 'What do you see?' When he told him, Waraqa said, 'That is the same angel whom Allah sent to the Prophet Moses. Should I live till you receive the Divine Message, I will support you strongly.'"
    • "Khadija then accompanied him to her cousin Warqa bin Naufil bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza, who, during the Pre-Islamic Period became a Christian and used to write the writing with Hebrew letters. He would write from the Gospel in Hebrew as much as God wished him to write. He was an old man and had lost his eyesight. Khadija said to Waraqa, "Listen to the story of your nephew, O my cousin!" Waraqa asked, "O my nephew! What have you seen?" God's Apostle described whatever he had seen. Waraqa said, "This was the same one who keeps the secrets whom Allah had sent to Moses (Angel Gabriel). I wish I were young and could live up to the time when your people would turn you out." God's Apostle asked, "Will they drive me out?" Waraqa replied in the affirmative and said, "Anyone (man) who came with something similar to what you have brought was treated with hostility; and if I should remain alive till the day when you will be turned out then I would support you strongly." But after a few days Waraqa died and the Divine Inspiration was also paused for a while."

In other words, given Muhammad's proximity and relationship to Wakara ibn Nawfal, a Nestorian literate priest, Muhammad could have been illiterate AND familiar with the Hebrew and Christian scriptures.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Where did he say he never read or write in the Quran?

Maybe you addressing point 3.

“Before this, you did not read any book, nor did you write anything with your hands”. (29:48).

When this verse was said by Muhammad, did anybody come forward in His time, to say, you lie?

 

[firedragon]

Ummi actually just mean he was from Mecca, the Mother of the towns, the context of Quran for that is "umal qura", and so he is an ummi in this sense.

However - Prophet Mohammad was commanded not to read or write, before Quran was revealed. The first words revealed to him finally permitted him to read.

Yep. That is actually another meaning. Ummal Kura does mean mother of towns but i am not 100% sure if that definitely refers to Mecca or if its a generic statement. Nevertheless, yes thats another possibility but dont you think for that meaning the word Umm should have a qualifying genitive noun to turn it into mean that type of meaning? An Ismu Majrooran is need to make it a mother of something.

I am also curious to know where its written that Muhammed was commanded not to read and write prior to the revelation of the Quran. Who commanded him and why must he obey someone?

Because as far as tradition goes, the first instance he was given revelation it was with the Quran (Not that i particularly believe it). Unless you believe another tradition and i am all ears.

 

[firedragon]

Of course, Muhammad was literate, that's how he was able to do a bang up job with copying ideas from the Old Testament and incorporating elements of the Old Testament into the Koran, which I believe he might have written by a copy of the Torah that Muhammad himself had hidden inside of an Arabian cave. I suspect Muhammad secretly knew Hebrew; he was very cunning as he kept his literacy abilities a secret from his followers, so they wouldn't have suspected Muhammad could've been able to use parts of the Old Testament for writing much of the Koran.

Please check out this reference: Muhammad's Plagiarism - WikiIslam

So with your attempt you mean to say that Muhammed was literate!!

 

[firedragon]

“Before this, you did not read any book, nor did you write anything with your hands”. (29:48).

When this verse was said by Muhammad, did anybody come forward in His time, to say, you lie?

I think you should first try asking questions without saying you say you lie, you say he lied or whatever. Yes?

It says thathluu kithaaban, you can easily see that its about a Kithab or a scripture. That does not say "you were illiterate" and neither does it mean "you couldnt write or read anything". It specifically says Kithab. A book. A scripture.

If the Quran wished to say he couldnt write or read anything it would have said "Ayyu Shayin". So it means scripture.

It is because he did not read any scripture before the Quran that he is a "Gentile" or an "Ummi Nabi". An ummi in this sense (Alif-Hamza, Meem, Ya) traditionally means one who has not or does not follow the mosaic traditions or scripture.

Thus, no brother, you should also think that this verse does not say "you cannot write", it says you "Did not" and it directly says Kithab or scripture. Read also the surrounding verses.

 

[Earthtank]

Was the prophet Muhammad able to read and write?

According to every credible evidence, No, we was NOT able to read nor write.

 

[firedragon]

Was the prophet Muhammad able to read and write?

According to every credible evidence, No, we was NOT able to read nor write.

What do you mean "Every credible evidence"? Please be specific and quote the evidence.

 

[paarsurrey]

Argument 1. A lot of people would have been illiterate at the time - Many people at that time would have been illiterate, but does that mean everyone was? So is it fair to make the argument that Muhammed or any single person was illiterate unless otherwise there was significant and clear evidence to the idea?

Argument 2. Ahadith say that he was illiterate - Yep. But aren't ahadith written a few centuries later? Thus, is that empirical evidence? Also, what about the ahadith that conflicts this notion like the one where the prophet apparently sees the gates of heaven and hell and sees certain things written on it and he narrates it. IF he couldn't read, how could he read what was written?

Argument 3. He is Ummi Nabi as said in the Quran - Quran does not use the word Ummi as illiterate, it uses it as gentile. So many places. So isnt it strange that translators found ummi to mean gentile all over the Quran but only when it comes to the prophet it became illiterate?

Argument 4. He was illiterate, thats why the Quran is a miracle - Well, have you used your God given aqal to think if maybe people wanted to make a miracle out of something that may not have existed and made up a story along the way?

Argument 5. Scholars agree that he was illiterate - So what now? Scholars agree and you have lost your brain? You are speaking about Ijma. What is this Ijma based on? It is based on tradition that they pick and choose because there were Maliki scholars in Al Andalus who argued that the prophet Muhammed was literate. e.g. Scholar and Poet "Abu al Walid al Baji in his book Tahkik al madhhab".

Argument 6. He dictated and got others to write - Well there is a difference in opinion among your own Islamic scholars on this. The hadith about him asking for a pen and paper at the death bed was ask someone else to write is too much of an effort to try and prove that he was illiterate. Its too much inference. He just asked for pen and paper. How in the world can you imagine that it was to get someone else to write? Well, one could argue that if he wanted a writer, he would have asked for a writer, not pen and paper.

Even in traditional schools of thought, blind taqleed is haram. I am using terms Muslims are used to in order to relate. Taqleed means to adhere to another persons school of thought. Aqal is the God given intellect a human being has to reason and think for himself. Different schools of thought have varying views on this in historical Islam.

So what do you think? Was this man an illiterate? Or is there no evidence to really prove that he was illiterate? What is this obsession about him being illiterate? Is it that people are so insecure that they want him to be an illiterate so badly they are willing to die for that cause of apologetics? Is it to make him a miracle when its unnecessary?

What say you brothers and sisters??

Please point out which one of the "Arguments given in the OP" are mentioned in Quran, internally, and quote the verses in Arabic original text and their translation in English. Right, please?

Regards

 

[firedragon]

Please point out which one of the steps are mentioned in Quran, internally, and quote the verses in Arabic original text and their translation in English. Right, please?

Regards

What steps?

 

[Kapalika]

Pretty sure you gotta be literate to write stuff. Who wrote it down for him otherwise?

 

[firedragon]

Pretty sure you gotta be literate to write stuff. Who wrote it down for him otherwise?

Well that's true. Although people argue that got others to write.