Was the war justified?

[Ceridwen018]

Lets just admit we went in there for our own national interests which,

That doesn't make any sense. What have we gained by going to war with Iraq?

"look the real reason i went to Iraq was for cheap oil,

Well that explains the soaring gas prices.

....Wait....no it doesn't!

to scare the bejesus outta people we don't like,

Jewscout, this is international politics and warfare--not third grade recess.

and to maintain America's predominance in the world

We didn't need to remind anyone that we were top dog. If anything, we're exhausting our military resources by going to war, not building them up. By displaying our power, we're actually losing power! How ironic...

 

[linwood]

Well that explains the soaring gas prices.

....Wait....no it doesn't!

Apparently they miscalculated or more likely it`s just too early to reap those benefits.
The fact that all oilfields and the oil ministry were the very first things secured by American troops kinda tells you what the priority was.

The rest of the country went to hell in a hand basket but we had a firm secure grip on that oil.

Jewscout, this is international politics and warfare--not third grade recess.

Could you please show me the difference?

 

[jewscout]

That doesn't make any sense. What have we gained by going to war with Iraq?

Well apparently it gained certain people a second term in the White House. It gave a physical battlefield to the war on terror even though Iraq has nothing to do w/ said war. Also it could be that we sat our big fat butts there in Iraq to show the people in region that we were going to be hanging out on their turf to fight this war on terror whether they liked it or not...or maybe because Iraq was the easy win out of the "Axis of evil"...who knows...i'm not saying they were good reasons but there were reasons...

Well that explains the soaring gas prices.

....Wait....no it doesn't!

Actually American gas prices are far lower than people realize...i spend more on a cup of coffee at starbucks than i do on a gallon of gasoline...
When you adjust for inflation, comparitivley speaking, gas was priceier in 1981...
http://money.cnn.com/2005/03/21/news/economy/aaa_gas/index.htm

While Monday's price set a new record at the pump, when adjusted for inflation the highest price for gasoline would be the equivalent of more than $3 a gallon in the spring of 1981, Reuters said, citing the Department of Energy.

Jewscout, this is international politics and warfare--not third grade recess.

wellll there are some historians that would argue one of the reasons we dropped the A-bomb on Japan was to scare the crap out of the Soviets...you'd be surprised how often politics can be like third grade recess...you mean to tell me Awnald got elected into office on his sound political platforms and not because of his popularity?
Just because we may have ideals doesn't mean the people running the show do...

We didn't need to remind anyone that we were top dog. If anything, we're exhausting our military resources by going to war, not building them up. By displaying our power, we're actually losing power! How ironic...

Well i think much of our exhausted resources come from a lack of tax revenue and Bush's poor liberal spending...but that's just me...
Maybe we didn't need to prove to the rest of the world as much as maybe proving to ourselves...i also recall that right after we took Baghdad, N. Korea and other nations, for a time, were playing to our tune, however reluctantly...

I'm not saying their good or justifiable reasons...they're just reasons

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Well apparently it gained certain people a second term in the White House.

That's simply absurd. After the Afghan war, Bush's approval rating was the highest of any President--ever. Many people thought he would be unbeatable in the 2004 election as a result, but his popularity sank with the invasion. Iraq nearly cost him the election....fortunately, his opponent was John Kerry.

 

[jewscout]

That's simply absurd. After the Afghan war, Bush's approval rating was the highest of any President--ever. Many people thought he would be unbeatable in the 2004 election as a result, but his popularity sank with the invasion. Iraq nearly cost him the election....fortunately, his opponent was John Kerry.

But how often in a time of "war" do the american people jump ship w/ a new prez? Besides there are people out there still who think that going into Iraq was a good idea...i live in Virginia and they are frigin everywhere!



...and agreed Kerry was a tool...

 

[Mr Spinkles]

The fact that all oilfields and the oil ministry were the very first things secured by American troops kinda tells you what the priority was.

The rest of the country went to hell in a hand basket but we had a firm secure grip on that oil.

Quite right, linwood. I'm sure Iraq would be far better off right now--and in years to come--if our troops had allowed Saddam loyalists to destroy her natural resources. As an additional plus, the ensuing environmental disaster might have killed off a bunch of those pesky endangered species roaming about the region.

 

[Saw11_2000]

^ Nice point Mr_Spinkles.

If I'm not mistaken, they were actually setting fire to the oil fields in the beginning of the war.

Found it:

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/21/sprj.irq.oil.wells/

 

[linwood]

Quite right, linwood. I'm sure Iraq would be far better off right now--and in years to come--if our troops had allowed Saddam loyalists to destroy her natural resources. As an additional plus, the ensuing environmental disaster might have killed off a bunch of those pesky endangered species roaming about the region.

Thats not what I`m implying at all Spinks.

Yes Iraqs oil reserves and Ministry of Oil were important strategic goals and under any security plan should have been taken and held immediately.

However they were treated as THE ONLY strategic goal.
Every other strategic center of infrastructure was left to burn besides the oil ministry and fields.
The only other institution I know of that was taken and guarded immediately was the ministry of information.
Iraqs intelligence services which they needed to chase down Saddams regime.

Ministry of Planning, the Ministry of Education, the Ministry of Irrigation, the Ministry of Trade, the Ministry of Industry, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, the Ministry of Culture .

Iraqs national Museum was once a place that held artifacts that dated to the very beginning of mans documented history.
It was looted and destroyed.
This was not just an Iraqi jewel this was a jewel for all humankind.
Wasn`t as important as the oil.

They had thousands of troops guarding the oil.
There were military vehicles (Bradleys) outside AND INSIDE the Ministry of Oil.
Yet they couldn`t spare a couple hundred to secure the archeological museums?

The Ministry of Education, Trade, Agriculture were apparently of no importance for an Iraq that was faced with a monumental rebuilding affort.
These ministries were burned to the ground..repeatedly.
If they went out or were put out by citizens they were re-lit days later by looters.
They`re ash now.
Who needs irrigation in the desert anyway?
Those kids don`t really need schools.
Hell who cares if the oldest clay tablets man ever etched a numeral into were shattered on the marble floors of the Iraqi Archeological Museum in a frenzy of looting?
This oil can pay for a hundred more o` them ol` clay tablets.
These things are of no importance to a country reeling from the greatest bombardment any country has ever had to climb from the rubble of.
We got the oil.
It`s gonna be ok.

Gimme a break Spinks.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Q) Why would an oil tycoon engineer a war that would make oil cheap and allow the virgin Alaskan landscape to escape being being raped and pillaged by his cronies?
A) He wouldn't. The war was designed to increase our oil consumption and to create an oil deficit. These higher prices were designed to reward those who helped to re-elect him.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Hell who cares if the oldest clay tablets man ever etched a numeral into were shattered on the marble floors of the Iraqi Archeological Museum in a frenzy of looting?
This oil can pay for a hundred more o` them ol` clay tablets.

Or it could pay for food, medicine, and reconstruction....but I suppose to Westerners who haven't been wounded or lost homes or fallen victim to treatable diseases, these things are trivial compared to the preservation of clay tablets. I'm sure the Iraqis would have been thrilled about allocating troops from hunting down criminals and insurgents in their neighborhoods to the task of defending clay tablets, too.

 

[Scuba Pete]

I agree Spinks...

It would be presumptious of either side of this debate to assume they know what the Iraquis want or don't want. We are completely isolated from them and only have our country's propoganda available on which to base our decisions.

 

[linwood]

Or it could pay for food, medicine, and reconstruction....but I suppose to Westerners who haven't been wounded or lost homes or fallen victim to treatable diseases, these things are trivial compared to the preservation of clay tablets. I'm sure the Iraqis would have been thrilled about allocating troops from hunting down criminals and insurgents in their neighborhoods to the task of defending clay tablets, too.

Forget the tablets Spinks.

Those ministries already had all the necessary data for the geographical areas in order to begin distributing food and medicine not to mention the connections and data that would make reconstruction easier.
Now they start from scratch..no data available to help.

Those ministries held the grid layouts for powergrids sewage systems irrigation systems..everything needed to begin a reconstruction.

You`re telling me they had no value to the Iraqi people?

What the US failure to defend these institutions shows is that reconstruction wasn`t a part of their foresight beyond financing.
This war shows a serious lack of foresight in a lot of areas.

You`re wearing blinders if you think they weren`t equally as important as the oil ministry.
Our current admin didn`t think they were and hindsight proves they were and still are wearing blinders.

I`ve also got to tell you that those silly tablets and the tons of priceless artifacts destroyed were an essential part of Iraqi culture and pride

If I recall correctly there were Iraqis injured or killed attempting to defend these museums against great odds.

Imagine for a moment that the Smithsonians museums were destroyed for any reason, are you trying to tell me you wouldn`t feel a serious cultural and scientific loss?

I know you better Spinks.

The loss would be unfathomable to me especially if just down the damn street there were 2 thousand sodliers who could have easily defended it.

 

[Scuba Pete]

because triggerhappy idiots hunting for medals and other glory metal throw smart bombs down,

Our service personell are NOT the ones responsible for this. Please don't denigrate the VAST majority who are merely doing a job YOU AND I sent them to do. They could give a rat's patootie that Bush signed the order. They are Americans representing Americans, and their first order of business is obedience to command. We should learn from our mistakes of BLAMING the soldier for the POLITICIAN'S sin back in the Vietnam era. They are only the messenger, and while some are "over the top", most are anxious to get back home. The politicians who sent them in are the pariahs. The people who voted those politicians in are FAR MORE GUILTY than any soldier doing their job. THEY should be over there serving on the front lines instead of these sad sacks.

 

[Scuba Pete]

The German soldier did not need my forgiveness. By and large, THEY were not the focus of the war crimes commission for a reason. They did as they were told. There is no dishonor in fighting for your country.

Those who crossed the line to gas and murder the non-combatants were punished whenever they were found.

As for who sent our troops? All Americans share the guilt, though some more than others. You could have done more to stop it and so could I.

Nice to see, you descided to read me again.

That may be brief if this is indicative of what you are posting. Everyone deserves a second chance in my book.

 

[Dr. Khan]

The image of the beast is war. Revelation 14:9
No war is justified, on terms of Christianity. The idea of christians being involved in any war is unscriptural. The book of Revelation identifys the Roman Empire and the Holy Roman Empire as the beasts in chapter 13. When I saw that I understood the subtility of the Devil and his power to rule in the world and lead all men to destruction and condemnation in the sight of God. That's what he is really after.
While you debate the issue you fail to understand the tremendous deception that is in the world which even deceives christians of every type because they are lead away through reasonings. The fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil (right and wrong) is the vail that is upon the nations. Isaiah 25.

 

[michel]

Was the war justified?

Absolutely not. The US had no valid reason for invading Iraq. The war has cost thousands of lives and billions of dollars and has accomplished absolutely nothing. The world is less secure than it was before the war, and international hatred of the the US has escalated. The war will go down in history as a huge mistake, and George W. Bush will be recognized as the worst president in US history.

Rich, my friend, There is not a word that you have said that I would disagree with; However wasn't there some sort of Moral obligation on 'Someones' part to rid the world of Saddam?

 

[jewscout]

Off topic as hell here, and my apologies for it, but if you read Major Jordan's Diaries, you will see that the soviet's got materials during the war that enabled them to make their own A-bomb and catch up on the <secret> US technologie.

well most of the world powers of at the time had the knowledge and materials for an atomic weapons program...they just chose to sit on it and not do anything with it unlike the US...
That still doesn't mean politicians didn't have the idea to use it as a scare tactic against the Ruskies...

 

[jewscout]

I don't think it is presumtious to claim that noone wants to die at age 10 or lower because triggerhappy idiots hunting for medals and other glory metal throw smart bombs down, or walk around triggerhappy influenced by all kinds of mandatory or secret experimental performance boosting drugs, because they themselves don't believe anymore that they are the liberators their government told them they would be seen as.

I could be wrong of course.

i can't speak for other soldiers but my cousin who is in the 101st had no desire for "medals and other glory metal"...he was just in the arm service when the war started and got shipped out with the rest..."triggerhappy idiot" is about the last term i'd use to describe him...

 

[BUDDY]

Does that mean we now officially forgive the Germans?


Sorry.. No I didn't.. I wouldn't send anyone into a war, I wouldn't fight myself.
And without proof, I won't be pulling anyone's car. Expecially if the person is sitting in an amored car because he is "loved" so much that he can't even go or doesn't dare to go unprotected among his own country men.


Yes, to protect the country, constitution and flag to enemy's foreign and DOMESTIC.

If Bush is the domestic Enemy.. He is doing a great job. (Prove me wrong on that one!!!, and without proof that is kinda hard.)


After all and down the line, it is the soldier who pulls the trigger, it is his concience and responsibility.
Anything else is an excuse. Heard all over history in all kinds of languages.
No you know why most veterans come back from a war, and are "changed".

Nice to see, you descided to read me again.

Okay, so now we finally get to it. You are starting to sound a lot like terrorists themselves. "The evil imperialist American war machine and their army who kill innocent life must be destroyed in the name of _________." That's right, go ahead and blame the soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines. Because we are the ones in harms way putting our lives and the lives of our families on the lines for the protection of the liberties and freedoms that you sit at home and enjoy. That's right, while some young kid is getting his legs blown off from a chinese made land mine, and a wife with her two children is learning that her husband was killed and the body too mamed to have an open casket, you have the freedom to sit at home and type away on your computer about how horrible we are to provide the freedom to do so. You have that right. You have that right because there are men and women out there, more courageous than you will ever know, putting there lives on the line for you.

No one in their right mind likes the idea of war. Most military personnel just want to do their duty and return to their family once its done. Unfortunately, and whether you like to admit it or not TransArm, there are people out there that hate America, Americans and everything that America stands for. And whether you agree with them about the evils of our nation or not, they will not hesitate to kill you if given the opportunity. Why? Because you have the right to think the way you want, worship or not worship who you want, vote in elections, etc. It doesn't make a lick of difference whether you hate Bush or the war, they will kill you just the same. So, we come along to make sure that your right to free speech is protected from such people. And we take your criticism and name calling. Why? Because it is the core of what we fight for. We fight for you and for your right to believe in what you believe. If you don't want us to fight for you, say the word. You can be the exception and see how long you are able to live without the protection that we provide.

Bottom line, war sucks. Innocent life is taken. Technology has provided ways to greatly reduce the number of lives taken, but it will always be part of the horror that is warfare. We all recognize this. But, what would be the cost of continuing to do nothing? What would the death toll rise to if we didn't take Saddam out? When is enough, enough? Ending this man and his bloodthirsty goons was the morally right thing to do. Stabilizing a sustained government is the right thing to do. Preventing a civil war with continued US presence is the right the thing to do. Going after terrorism globally to prevent future attacks against innocent life, is the right thing to do. And no amount of blasphemy against the military or the men and women who serve in it, will do anything to preserve your rights, so I suggest you show at least a little bit of respect for the price others are paying for you.

 

[linwood]

I think everyone here is missing the point.

TA is too far to the left and everyone else seems to be too far to the right.

The truth is that we can talk about defending our freedom and liberty and they are valid arguments but in all fairness the USA has spent a half century following foreign policy that deprives other peoples of these self same freedoms and liberties for our own benefit.

We have not in any way ever promoted democratic reform for the sake of democratic reform.

These peoples are not pissed off because they "despise our freedoms" (I`ve never heard such a transparent line of BS).
These peoples are pissed off because we actively deprive them of the same freedoms.

I`m hoping Iraq will be different.